Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
Well, yes, but I think a different faction would have worked replacing the Legion in NV, if not just because of how ridiculously they're portrayed.
Different Concepts for the Legion
- Thread starter Faceless Stranger
- Start date
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Sorry but even after reading every complain about the Legion, I still don't see why people think why they don't fit into the game, I really don't see any complain that has weight other than "they look ridiculous", Now I probably will get shit for not agreeing with that bit of criticism by other people reading the topic, I just know it, I think they could be an interesting faction if they were given more focus, a major change I would make that I admit is dumb is they using football gear to make their armor, using Animal Skins would have been much better and it would reflect their nature better.
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
It's not that I think they don't fit, I think it's a good idea, poorly executed, I agree that if they were fleshed out, and given more focus, they would fit better in the world. That being said, their methods would also need to be revised, because for a supposedly "grey" faction, they certainly act like butchers.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Their greyness as I see it doesn't lie in them acting civilized, they are brutal and violent assholes, but they manage to make the settlements they rule crime free, it really is not about they having likeable traits but more about how much of a pragmatist you are, do you value individual rights over order and productivity? The legion might be your thing, if you value individual rights well it's obvious you are not gonna side with them, I wouldn't in a real life situation, but in the game I would like to explore that kind of faction more.
Faceless Stranger
Board Drifter
The fact that you don't actually see them until after Vegas, while seeing the NCR from beginning probably doesn't help either.
Dr. Croccer
First time out of the vault
The problem is that the entire set-up of ''grey vs grey'' between the NCR and the Legion is so poorly executed. We hear characters talk all the time about how they doubt that the NCR is able to maintain control, and how it is corrupt, but you see few signs of it in game. The few dickish NCR characters who order you to do nasty things and such only appear at the very end of the game, and their missions are hardly any worse than those of House or Caesar. Similarly, the upside of the Legion is supposed to be that they symbolize security at the cost of freedom, and that alot of people would choose that. But, again, there's little trace of that. You have Raul, Cass and that trader at the Fort mentioning it but that's it. I think the main reason is because 3/4 of the map is NCR territory and the majority of their missions are to protect the people of the Mojave, whilst the Legion have no real settlements and the few missions they have are just pillaging. It would be better if we had some more cases of NCR ''oppression'' and a few Legion towns in which the population are doing relatively well. Right now it just seems that the NCR is the selfless saviour of the ungrateful Wastelanders and the Legion is the dragon they have to slay.Walpknut said:
Actually i would have loved a concept more bound to needs for survival.
So on the one side you could show the NCR territories where a farmer ruining some small water source would get some fine or whatever, while he would get skinnend in the Legion territory for the same thing. Simply because water isn't as scare in the NCR territory as in the Legion territory.
A NCR citizien would see a badly treated ill person as something bad, while the Legionaire simply would rationalize it, as the person being a burden to the society....
So as allready mentioned (if i remember correctly), society > individium vs. individium > society. The belief that one can substitute destoryed resources somehow and that sooner or later you will have again excess resources or the belief that the resources are so scare that they have to be rationed and that this will never change.
Well and artistic wise and never would have gone for Roman Footballplayers. In respect to the 'survivalism' and i guess the Fluff in F1&2 (where the whole regions farer east sounded less viable to live in) i would have tried something more in that direction. Think of Dune Fremen or such a thing...
So on the one side you could show the NCR territories where a farmer ruining some small water source would get some fine or whatever, while he would get skinnend in the Legion territory for the same thing. Simply because water isn't as scare in the NCR territory as in the Legion territory.
A NCR citizien would see a badly treated ill person as something bad, while the Legionaire simply would rationalize it, as the person being a burden to the society....
So as allready mentioned (if i remember correctly), society > individium vs. individium > society. The belief that one can substitute destoryed resources somehow and that sooner or later you will have again excess resources or the belief that the resources are so scare that they have to be rationed and that this will never change.
Well and artistic wise and never would have gone for Roman Footballplayers. In respect to the 'survivalism' and i guess the Fluff in F1&2 (where the whole regions farer east sounded less viable to live in) i would have tried something more in that direction. Think of Dune Fremen or such a thing...
Himmelstoss
First time out of the vault
James Snowscoran said:
Yeah, the Legion is a bit like 18-th century Prussia in that regard: it's not a country with an army, it's an army with a country.
I'm not sure the society is 100% tribal anymore. Caesar established the Legion what, 34 years ago? Assuming the legionaries eventually die off in combat and the recruits are inducted at the youngest age possible (the kids training at the Fort seem to imply this) , Caesar could very well have third-generation legionaries by now.
To me the Legion has the most potential of any faction to tell meaningful stories. New Vegas hints at a lot of interesting issues within the Legion, but never really explores them. Like how, when referring to the first dam war, they expose how the Legion's greatest strength (its top-down meritocratic organization) is also its fatal flaw. Or the loss of personal and tribal identities in favor of rigid conformity, the blatant misogyny, safety at the price of freedom etc. Personally, I am very interested in what would happen to Arizona and the Legion if they lost the Second Dam War.
Surf Solar
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I hope that they do not appear in any of the future fallout games. That would be my idea of a different concept for them.
The legion as slated for Van Buren might not have been so bad. I respect the fact that for the conflict inherent in New Vegas to work, they needed to present us with a group that was the opposite of the NCR in almost every way, and I think that a militaristic tribal confederation wasn't a bad way to go. The core problem with the Legion (really, the only problem, though it touches on every aspect of their being) is that they were too over-the-top. I can see a smashed and diminished legion, distanced a bit from their overly faithful Roman recreationism and puppy-kicking, having a place in the canon.
That would probably be my concept for them: a lot like they are now, only reduced by a factor of ten in nearly every regard.
That would probably be my concept for them: a lot like they are now, only reduced by a factor of ten in nearly every regard.
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
If they were toned down some and further explored, you could have a much better Legion. As is, you only see one military camp and two forward bases from which they launch attacks a d scouting missions. You get no idea of Legion civilian life.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Tone down the faux latin, ''ius'' names and such, for starters. I always thought it was a bit silly.
Then, a less ridiculous military doctrine. I really don't see how sending guys with machetes against soldiers with guns can possibly end in anything else but a complete bloodbath for the legion. We're not talking about street fights, here. The Mojave is an open desert, guns have an incredible advantage. That they are better trained in melee combat is good, but that they use it as a primary method of combat stretches things a bit. Also, I understand the legion is populous, but using that much cannon fodder in a death world like Fallout's, especially when the Legion eschews medical technology, seems a bit much. The casualties must be astronomical. Even a light wound can fester and make the soldier crippled/dead, while the NCR grunt slaps a Stimpack on it and is good to go.
Third, make them more obviously organized. Villages, roads, patrols, administration, something that makes it clear they are more than a roving band of raiders with wierd accents and clothes.
And of course, far more presence in the game world. Until after you get to Vegas, the only thing you see of the Legion are 1. a slave camp and 2. them burning a town to the ground as a message. Hardly the best of first impressions for most players. Compounded by the fact that many players will grab Boone, who attacks Legionaries on sight, and well...
Then, a less ridiculous military doctrine. I really don't see how sending guys with machetes against soldiers with guns can possibly end in anything else but a complete bloodbath for the legion. We're not talking about street fights, here. The Mojave is an open desert, guns have an incredible advantage. That they are better trained in melee combat is good, but that they use it as a primary method of combat stretches things a bit. Also, I understand the legion is populous, but using that much cannon fodder in a death world like Fallout's, especially when the Legion eschews medical technology, seems a bit much. The casualties must be astronomical. Even a light wound can fester and make the soldier crippled/dead, while the NCR grunt slaps a Stimpack on it and is good to go.
Third, make them more obviously organized. Villages, roads, patrols, administration, something that makes it clear they are more than a roving band of raiders with wierd accents and clothes.
And of course, far more presence in the game world. Until after you get to Vegas, the only thing you see of the Legion are 1. a slave camp and 2. them burning a town to the ground as a message. Hardly the best of first impressions for most players. Compounded by the fact that many players will grab Boone, who attacks Legionaries on sight, and well...
Wumbology
Actually a sentient CRT
Display their ruthlessness.
Now, obviously, Obsidian can't show children being used as bombs, or massive bloody orgies, on account of legality, and they did a damn fine job with what dialogue and in-game suggestion they could at making the Legion a horde of misogynistic, sadist terrors.
But I feel the engine's limitations severely limited the Legion.
Actions were not present to reinforce them as genuine terrors.
I think, though, this isn't the fault of the concept but the execution: Bethesda's AI is limited to the most basic combat possible. The only way this was balanced was by giving the Legion boys bigger health bars.
A tactical or skill superiority was never shown, and I feel that when you see the Legion in-game beating NCR boys at the drop of a hat, it fails to add up. They come off as lackluster.
The presentation of spear-chucking rapists in sports gear killing NCR soldiers with proper armour and guns is silly.
Had they AI been more dynamic, ambushes, hostages, massive hordes of raving lunatic recruits, or manipulating your morality to their advantage- throwing civilians laced with explosives or hostages, it would have added up- SHOW their brutality rather than TELL.
Keep the rest, fix that.
Now, obviously, Obsidian can't show children being used as bombs, or massive bloody orgies, on account of legality, and they did a damn fine job with what dialogue and in-game suggestion they could at making the Legion a horde of misogynistic, sadist terrors.
But I feel the engine's limitations severely limited the Legion.
Actions were not present to reinforce them as genuine terrors.
I think, though, this isn't the fault of the concept but the execution: Bethesda's AI is limited to the most basic combat possible. The only way this was balanced was by giving the Legion boys bigger health bars.
A tactical or skill superiority was never shown, and I feel that when you see the Legion in-game beating NCR boys at the drop of a hat, it fails to add up. They come off as lackluster.
The presentation of spear-chucking rapists in sports gear killing NCR soldiers with proper armour and guns is silly.
Had they AI been more dynamic, ambushes, hostages, massive hordes of raving lunatic recruits, or manipulating your morality to their advantage- throwing civilians laced with explosives or hostages, it would have added up- SHOW their brutality rather than TELL.
Keep the rest, fix that.
Surf Solar said:
Sometimes I think you overdo your dislike for everything post Fallout 1 Surf Solar
Lone Cat
It Wandered In From the Wastes
DoubleRubix said:I don't know. I'm an avid fan of fallout and playing against Super Mutants, Energy Weapon wielding Enclave Robots and the Enclave again. I think the Legion as crazy melee heavy warriors is a cool way to go. But I think it would have been better if there was a Sub-faction that were like the Amazons. Since the Legion don't let women in their ranks to fight. And I think it would have been cool to have a sister tribe where you could help them stay with the legion or turn them against them kinda like the Khans.
Legions were modelled after classical era Romans. Designed by J.E. Sawyer.
How well does he knows about Classical Romans? or did he intend to make Edward Sallow the First Caesar as a big time swindler?
While the Legion claims themselves to be 'Romans'. Much of their 'ethics' are quite Early Christian. I don't know if Romans really value the life of one's deeds rather than wealth and longevity but early Christians do. In addition, the actual "Pagan Romans" were no less decadent than either Vegans or the NCR. Legion morality might be influenced by Joshua Graham's teachings (or maybe the Malpaise Legate created much of it) and mixed with what Sallow believes Romans viewed it as 'Good'
The Legion forbade female Courier to enter the Arena (except she VS Benny), but in actual Rome, there were female Gladiators and they became one out of their choices (and well prepared!), The practices were later banned however.
I don't know what will happened to the Legion after they lost the Battle of Hoover Dam for the second time. except that Sallow died by brain tumor afterwards, Lanius took the Throne, but some top leaders (Vulpes is a prime example) disagreed because they believed Lanius is too 'Barbarian' than 'Romans'. Will it fell to an infightings? Will there be a splinther faction of 'Christian Romans' who looked for the first Legate and made him the next Caesar?
Supposed that Courier pursue the paths of Independency and not bow before the NCR.
Personally Bethesda engine did NOT favor 'Big World Fallouts'. and personally I think Bethesda SHOULD develop an engine that supports the realism of Big World, Separate the World Map and the area map as different entity.
The Legion should be refined.
BonusWaffle
Still Mildly Glowing
Correct me if im wrong.. but isnt the legion we see in fallout new vegas actually a legion? Like a occupying force aggressive military organization? I doubt the actual population of caesars empire lives like roman soldiers, who were pillaging raping buchers
Im guessing the reason the ncr occupying force is seen by players as less outright evil is because the ncr is based off of old world usa.. whos assimilation tactics, while not exactly welcomed by the native populace, are a lot less violent and brutal than the romans.
Im guessing the reason the ncr occupying force is seen by players as less outright evil is because the ncr is based off of old world usa.. whos assimilation tactics, while not exactly welcomed by the native populace, are a lot less violent and brutal than the romans.
Lone Cat
It Wandered In From the Wastes
^The 'citizenry life' of the Caesar's Legion has not been mentioned anywhere in New Vegas. except that males were drafted from birth, females must do the housework. but i'm not sure whether did Sallow's "Paganism" has any concepts of martimony. While the Legion hates the decadency of the 'Old World Societies' and its successors (the Res Publica de Nova California). Their 'sexual morality' is not even better. Sex slavery is one thing, I'm not sure if Caesar has ever host any 'Aphrodite Orgy' before? since such fest did exists in Rome when they were worshipping Olympians.
Makenshi
Ahoy, ye salty dogs!
The Dutch Ghost said:
What makes you think he likes Fallout 1 either?
