Don't Buy the Hype

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by Bradylama, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    I wrote this piece with the intention of it being used for viral anti-marketing. I understand it's probably way too big for that, but the whole argument requires too much evidence. Please, if you like this, repost it on other forums using the .txt file linked at the bottom of this post:

    In the year of our Lord, 2007 AD, the Fallout franchise turns ten years old. However, since the release of Fallout 2 in 1998, fans have yet to enjoy a true sequel to their favorite roleplaying franchise. Fallout 2 was followed by Fallout: Tactics, which while being technically fun had a cavalcade of setting issues and wasn't the roleplaying game that fans wanted. The company was purchased a while after these events by Titus, the director becoming Herve Caen. In 2003, he started two projects roughly at the same time: Van Buren, which was Fallout 3, and the console shooter Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel. Caen cancelled the former for the latter in an attempt to focus Interplay's resources on the console market.[1]

    In an effort to help stave off its impending bankruptcy, Interplay sold the rights to make Fallout 3 to Bethesda Softworks in 2004, including options for a 4th and 5th Fallout, for 1.175 million dollars advance against royalties. This transaction was met with careful optimism. Perhaps despite Bethesda's game history, they could effectively deliver a sequel that the fans could enjoy.[1]

    However, ever since the release of The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Bethesda has systematically eroded any faith in an honest-to-goodness sequel to Fallout 2. They have figuratively shat all over the fans of the Elder Scrolls franchise and Star Trek franchise, with their sights soon to be set on the two biggest Fallout fansites, No Mutants Allowed[2] and Duck and Cover[3].

    The following is an account of Bethesda's operating methods, and the mishandling of the various fanbases :


    Chris Weaver, the chairman of Media Technologies founded Bethesda in 1986 in an effort to see if the PC was a viable market for game development. The first game, a football game titled Gridirion, was a success, securing Bethesda a deal with Interplay to develop the first John Madden Football. For 18 years, Bethesda was owned and funded solely by Weaver, with The Elder Scrolls: Arena becoming Weaver's baby. The Elder Scrolls is Bethsoft's only original in-house franchise. [4]

    In 1994, Bethesda released The Elder Scrolls: Arena[5], an open-ended roguelike played with a First-Person Perspective that took place in the fantasy world of Tamriel. That the game was a roguelike was very important. Traditionally, roguelikes are based on the 1980 game Rogue[6], and usually feature top-down views. However, two important features of roguelikes, namely a fantasy world with randomly-generated maps and dungeons, are predominant enough in Arena and its sequel Daggerfall for fans to refer to both titles as roguelikes.

    The appeal of a roguelike lies in its replay value. The nature of randomly generated environments guarantees that no two experiences are going to be exactly alike, and gamers responded well to these features. Arena and Daggerfall combined static environments such as cities with randomly-generated dungeons and quests. While there may have not been much depth to the experience beyond the central story, the massive world and random nature kept some players interested in and playing the games even to the present.

    Following Arena's success, Daggerfall [7]was released in 1996. Daggerfall was a supremely ambitious project which sought to recreate Tamriel in 161,000 square miles, and was inhabited by 750,000 NPCs. By comparison, the sequel to Daggerfall, Morrowind, is about .01% the size of Daggerfall's gameworld, with 6 square miles, while Oblivion only features 16. For players that loved Arena's roguelike qualities it was a phenomenal sequel.

    Daggerfall also expanded on the impressive lore created for Arena, adding a new cast of fleshed out characters in addition to the 750,000 clones, not the least which being Mannimarco the King of Worms[8]:
    Despite being technically impressive, Daggerfall was riddled with bugs, one of which made it almost impossible to complete the main quest. As a result the game didn't sell that well, and neither did its two spinoffs.

    It was at this time that Todd Howard had entered the scene:
    Howard was later a producer and designer for The Terminator: Future Shock[10] and did the same for SkyNET[11] and is credited for "Additional Design" on Daggerfall. Todd's work on the Terminator shooters will be important.

    Following the inability to capitalize on Daggerfall, as well as the release and production of a number of other commercial flops, Bethesda and its parent company, Weaver's Media Technologies were in deep water:
    It also effectively ended Weaver's dominance over Bethesda, making it accountable to the board which comprised Zenimax (including Weaver). The Elder Scrolls's control under a panel of suits and the insistance from Microsoft to make Morrowind an Xbox title effectively dumbed down the franchise and severely dissapointed Arena and Daggerfall fans.

    Morrowind And Weaver's Absence

    The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind[12]was released to critical acclaim and fan dissapointment in 2002 with versions for the PC and Xbox. Despite the alienation of previous fans, the game sold 4 million copies across both platforms, and was able to garner a new fan base for the franchise.

    Perhaps most distressing to fans of Arena and Daggerfall was the lack of roguelike elements. In lieu of creating a massive roguelike world, Morrowind instead shifted to a comparatively small, hand-crafted static world centered around the island of Vvardenfell in the province of Morrowind. Cited reasons for doing so was an attempt at making more unique NPCs and quests. While in some cases this was accomplished effectively, there were still far too many filler NPCs to give the impression of a fully functioning virtual world. The tradeoff between the roguelike Daggerfall and hand-set Morrowind wasn't enough, and players ended up with a much smaller world to explore.

    Character skills were also pulled back from the 38 skills in Daggerfall to 27 in Morrowind. Most of the communication skills were removed, leaving only Mercantile and Speechcraft. Most of the old communication-based skills were language skills for most of the species of Tamriel. Contrary to first impressions, however, high language skills mostly reduced the likelihood of creatures attacking you on sight as opposed to actually allowing you to speak with them. Instead of taking the opportunity to support these skills and giving them an interactive application, they were removed.

    Much of these changes can be attributed to to Todd Howard's sudden promotion to Design Lead on the project. His experiences with the Terminator shooters could be seen as Bethesda effectively turned the Elder Scrolls series from an adventure game with roleplaying elements into a shooter with roleplaying elements.

    Another complaint about the game was the change in plot development. The main story of Morrowind was completely linear, with only a few optional objectives and a set ending, which was as opposed to Daggerfall's severely branched quest tree and 7 different endings. For comparison, note the difference in the flow charts for UESP's Daggerfall Walkthrough[13] and Morrowind Walkthrough[14].

    On the other hand, the game was still faithful to the lore created by Arena and Daggerfall. It also possessed many High Fantasy qualities which gave it an extremely attractive appearance from an art perspective, but was occasionally drab in some areas of the gameworld. It had a lot to offer in terms of exploration and expansion of lore, and is well-written enough to be considered a faithful sequel from a setting perspective, if not a gameplay one.

    The commercial success of Morrowind and its expansions ensured another Elder Scrolls game, and work soon began on Oblivion.

    Things weren't looking good for Weaver, however:
    Weaver's first suit against Zenimax was thrown out of court for his misconduct, and another suit is currently under way. Despite owning 33% of Zenimax stock, Morrowind was the last title Weaver has ever been credited on.2[16]

    In 2005 the marketing machine for Oblivion kicked into full swing. Fans were worked into a frenzy over the prospect of a "next-gen" Elder Scrolls title, while some fansites, most noteably the online community RPGCodex[17] expressed tremendous skepticism leading up to the release of Oblivion.

    On March 21, 2006, the fears of all of these skeptics were confirmed on the release of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion[18] for the PC and Xbox360.

    In one fell swoop, not only did Bethesda continue to alienate fans of the roguelike Arena and Daggerfall, but also alienated the new fanbase they had acquired as a result of Morrowind's success. If Morrowind was a dumbing down of The Elder Scrolls, Oblivion was borderline retarded.

    The most telling sign of the loss of depth in Oblivion was the continued drop in skills from Morrowind's 27 to Oblivion's 21. Weapon classes were lumped into Blade, Blunt, Ranged, and Unarmed skills. Axes were considered to be in the blunt category, while spears and crossbows were removed altogether. The magic skills were also whittled down, as the Gamebryo engine didn't allow for the seamless world that every previous Elder Scrolls game featured for the outdoors, so gone were spell classes that aided levitation and necromancy. It was also impossible for the return of the climbing skill, which in addition to levitation was an alternate method of reaching a location in Daggerfall, but had been removed in Morrowind.

    More significant was the complete loss of any real consequence for the player's actions. The choices for a player were also extremely limited. When talking to a quest-giver, the quest is automatically activated regardless of whether the player actually wants to do it. The factions themselves were all-inclusive, and player characters could be the leaders of all 4 guilds. The player was also capable of completing the guild quests without any skillsets specific to them. A fighter could complete all Mage Guild quests, mostly because of the homogenous nature of the skill system.

    Curiouser was the lack of any significant impact on the gameworld. Any murder can be bought off with a thousand spetims (the in-game currency), and beyond the deaths of non-quest reliant NPCs, nothing the player does creates an appreciable impact. The player could become the "Hero of Kvatch" after a certain point in the main quest, yet when interacting with NPCs, they still all treat the player character like they've never seen him before in their life, despite having just called you the Hero of Kvatch.

    Yet even with the amorality of buying off any murder (including the murder of guards), the player was incapable of joining the more evilly-aligned guilds such as the Necromancers or the Black Wood Company, because doing so would interfere with the quest lines of the Mage's and Fighter's guilds, respectively.

    The loss of any consequences and gameworld impact was a jarring transition from Morrowind, which featured guild quests that sometimes conflicted with each other. There were also three Great Houses which the player character could only be aligned with one of. In Oblivion, the choice of becoming a member of one faction and not being able to join another was removed completely.

    The much-touted Radiant AI was also exposed to be an of hype. Instead of characters performing contextual tasks and giving themselves goals, NPCs followed strictly scheduled patterns in which they would go to a location just to stare at a wall for 5 in-game hours and have disjointed conversations with other NPCs about mudcrabs.

    Perhaps the greatest flaw of all was the inclusion of a poorly designed level-scaling system, which scaled all enemies and items to the player character's level. This eliminated any chance of the game being too hard or too easy, eliminating the possibility of any challenge. This resulted in queer inconsistancies such as bandits with plate armour. Because of the scaling, all items were of little use, being set to the player's level. This trivialized any sense of progression and surprise in the game, making it possible to accomplish any task at level 1. The player could become Arena Champion, the greatest fighter in all of Cyrodiil, at level 1, and Mannimarco, the powerful Necromancer, puppet master, and God to the terrible sloads, could be killed by a level 1 character with an iron dagger.

    Oblivion also offered very little else in terms of lore, and merely accomplished the end of the Septim line and the beginning of the Fourth Era in The Elder Scrolls. Most of the lore in Elder Scrolls games is supplemented through books that are readable in-game. Yet most of the books in Oblivion were copied from Daggerfall and Morrowind, with very little new information.

    In spite of these flaws, the marketing machine headed by Pete Hines was so effective that media reception was overwhelmingly positive. This helped insure the sale of 3 million copies as Todd Howard and Pete Hines targeted the title to the casual crowd of Xbox360 gamers.

    Blacklisting the Codex

    Bethesda's bullying before the launch of Oblivion can be best seen in an interview with Douglas Goodall. Goodall was a writer who had left Bethesda after working on Morrowind over his own disagreements with the direction Todd had steered the franchise. However, the interview in which Goodall aired his grievances was forcibly removed[15] from an Elder Scrolls fansite:

    The first signs of trouble for NMA began shortly after Emil Pagliarulo announced himself at the NMA[19]. He posted four times in two days, all in introduction threads, and then went inactive to this day. At the time little was thought of it, and any who cared presumed he had gone back to lurking or was too busy to post.

    Meanwhile, Oblivion was released to both the derision and despair of the RPGCodex community. A month after release, the Codex's Vault Dweller posted his Oblivion review[20] on the front page. Bethesda responded severely to the critical review:

    The RPGCodex is a free-spirited community that encourages a "say what you please" mentality. The end result sometimes manifesting in the use of links to shock sites. Bethesda cited these causes for their blacklisting of the Codex, however at the time, ESF forum members were also using links to shock sites, and conducting discussions about lewd content. In other words, Bethesda's stated motives were a lie used as an attempt to justify the control and censuring of a community beyond its reach, a trend that has since been repeated.

    Where No Trekkie Can Go Anymore

    While Fallout changed hands between Interplay and Bethesda, the Star Trek gaming franchise was suspended in a state of limbo. STG's[22] Victor recalls in his interview with NMA[23]:

    At some point, however, Bethesda was able to acquire the rights to make Star Trek games. In a private exchange with this author, Victor relates:

    The Star Trek game Bethsoft was working on is Star Trek Legacy[25]. Published by Bethesda and developed by MadDoc, it was released on December 05, 2006 for the PC and Xbox360 to below-average reception by gaming media. Whitemithrandir of the Codex, however, had other ideas[26] of the game:

    Legacy was awful, and the sentiment was felt at STG. Why would Bethesda ship such a horrible title? Again Victor relates:

    Again from the NMA interview:

    STG's reaction developed from welcoming the game to criticizing it. Again, the actions of a community outside of their reach caused Bethesda to attempt to silence them.

    On Jan 24th, Victor announced on the STG forums, that Bethesda had blacklisted their site[27].

    Divide & Conquer

    What happened to STG wasn't merely a simple blacklisting. Bethesda employed a tactic of Divide & Conquer:

    Fansite favoritism, complacency in harassment on their official boards, complacency in hate blogs? How Bethesda treated the STG goes beyond a mere blacklisting. By using the STG for their marketing, and then dropping them in favor of a site that wouldn't criticize the end product, Bethesda has acted in a manner that many fear they'll attempt to repeat in the Fallout communities.

    Remember our friend Emil? Posting as Lohan[28], he made a grand total of four posts at No Mutants Allowed on February the second, and the third of 2006. Since then he has yet to make any other post at NMA, and it is perhaps not all that surprising that he made his presence known, and then became scarce shortly before the release of Oblivion.

    Fast-forward to October, when Emil made his first post at Duck and Cover as Bethsoft _Emil[29]. It was after being announced Lead Designer of the Fallout 3 project, and yet while posting at DAC he had yet to announce himself on NMA.

    I asked Kharn of NMA about the issue:
    Bullshit indeed. Remember Emil's first post at NMA?[19]

    Emil couldn't have possibly been lurking on NMA and then claim to have stopped posting because the company he works for gets ragged on. Especially since he made a joke about the harsh language used when referring to Pete Hines, who works for and is considered the mouth piece for the company that Emil works for.

    He's certainly lied about company loyalties, possibly lied about being a lurker, and possibly even lied about thinking well of NMA. His history with NMA and DAC all suggest that his posting habits are being dictated by the company, possibly Pete Hines himself. Even when posting at DAC, however, he only posted a short amount of time, from October 27th, to November 12th[31], which for the unobservant reader was a month before the release of Star Trek Legacy.

    Is there significance to the fact that Emil made his presence known and then stopped posting at two different Fallout fansites a month before the release of two titles produced, and one developed, by Bethsoft? It's impossible to say. Yet, considering the fact that MrSmileyFaceDude[32], another Bethesda developer has been posting occasionally at DAC, up to January 23rd (at the time this is being written, it is mid-February), whereas his last post made at NMA was on March 14th, 2006[33], the evidence appears to show signs of favoritism.

    What does this mean for the future of NMA and DAC? If the evidence from the blacklisting of RPGCodex and STG are anything to go by, there's a significant possibility that as the hype machine for Fallout 3 kicks into gear, Bethesda will attempt to use DAC and NMA in order to serve as marketing tools, as was the case with STG and STGU. Eventually, when Bethsoft finds that NMA and DAC won't tow the party line, they'll be blacklisted, and Bethesda may possibly even attempt to garner DAC's complacency with meaningless benefits and exclusive info.

    The previous statement serves as a warning. If Bethesda does attempt to control NMA and DAC they are sure to be severely dissapointed.

    Deconstructing the Hype

    The purpose of this piece is not to encourage the reader to boycott all products produced or developed by Bethesda. It is instead a warning, that one must be aware of how their hype machine operates, and how not to be drawn in by mindless lingo and false promises, as was the case with Oblivion and Star Trek Legacy.

    We'll now take a look at two examples of PR hype from Todd Howard and Pete Hines, the first from the previously cited Escapist article, the second from a recent Shacknews interview[33]

    First, Todd Howard's comments in the Escapist article:

    This is an interesting statement, considering that while commercially succesful, since Todd has become the head of Bethesda's in-house development studio, The Elder Scrolls has lost precisely what made its predecessors special. You'll remember that we've already established that it was the roguelike elements and massive gameworlds that made Arena and Daggerfall unique. Playing Oblivion and Morrowind it's clear that, for better or worse, they don't feel like traditional Elder Scrolls games.

    This odd way of making sequels worries Fallout fans, because it suggests that Todd has a habit of focusing on precisely what hasn't made a franchise special. For Fallout and Fallout 2, specifically, they used Isometric perspectives, turn-based combat, and a simulationist roleplaying experience. None of those features has ever been in the experience of any current Bethesda developer. Certainly not Todd. It's arguable that none of the Elder Scrolls games even come close to being significant roleplaying experiences. Pete Hines has also affirmed rumours that Bethesda refused to hire original Fallout developers, as will be made clear shortly.

    Horse Armor, for those of you that don't know, was a cosmetic feature removed from the original release of Oblivion and sold later through microtransactions for $2.50 US. While on the surface, hundreds of thousands may sound like a large number, you'll remember that Oblivion has to date sold 3 million units. Hundreds of thousands could only ever represent a small portion of Oblivion gamers who were willing to give the mod a shot, and doesn't even indicate how many of those customers were even satisfied with the purchase. By quoting big numbers, Todd has attempted to make the decisions of Bethesda seem in the right, when in fact the numbers don't mean anything.

    Todd's statement that the series lost quality may appear to sound good to hardliners, but it's that very appearance which raises suspicion. For the longest time Bethesda has remained tight-lipped about what they consider to be important in Fallout, or even what they're doing with Fallout 3. To make such a comment now in the midst of several PR fiascos looks to be nothing more than lip-service.

    That aside, his position on "jokes" in games is also questionable, considering that the ad-campaign for the Oblivion expansion, Shivering Isles[36] has focused predominantly on how "funny" the game will be for its focus on madness.

    Now moving on to Pete Hines and his Shacknews interview:

    Remember how they treated The Elder Scrolls?

    It's also interesting to note that he says that they've treated Fallout 3 like the first two games, while then saying that they actually haven't, making the entire exchange completely meaningless.

    The notion that all Bethesda devs have played and loved Fallout is highly questionable, considering that in 2004, one Bethesda developer registered as HayT on the Something Awful forums stated:

    Whether at the present, all Bethesda devs had played "and loved" Fallout is uknowable, but the fact of HayT's leak, as old as it is, is enough to cast doubts.

    Note also that what people "from the outside" expect of Bethesda, in terms of the fan communities, isn't much.

    This is also another effective marketing tool that absolves Bethesda of any wrongdoing because you "can't please everybody," including the fans of the franchise they're developing for.

    It's been repeated several times in the past by others talking about Fallout spinoffs:

    All of these statements ignored the fact that what fans want isn't the feared "Oblivion with guns," a pen & paper game modeled after d20 instead of GURPS (the system Fallout was originally developed for), or an action spin-off instead of an honest-to-God Fallout sequel with similar gameplay mechanics. Considering Bethesda's attitudes towards NMA, DAC, the Codex, STG, and Elder Scrolls fans, it would appear that they too don't care what the fans want.

    Notice the discrepancy? Despite being "the right guys to be doing this franchise," as self-proclaimed Fallout fans, Bethesda apparently wasn't interested in hiring people like Leonard Boyarsky or Tim Cain onto the project, even as consultants. The people who created the very franchise they're fans of. Surely any fan making a Fallout game would jump at the chance to work with the "masters" that created one of their favorite roleplaying games.

    There's very little to interpret from this statement, other than the significant possibility that Bethesda being full of "Fallout fans" is a lie.

    So four people worked on Morrowind but didn't work on Oblivion. While objectively true, in reality it discounts the massive expansion to the development team between Morrowind and Oblivion.

    According to Moby Games, 46 people from Morrowind worked on Oblivion[39]. Compare that to the massively expanded credits for Oblivion[40], of which 18 people had worked on the Elder Scrolls action spin-off Redguard [41](which Todd Howard was also the project lead on), while only 5 had worked on Daggerfall, in which 26 people[42] are credited in the design of the game. Numerically, only a handful of people who made classic Elder Scrolls games worked on Oblivion, and logically, simply because a sequel has been made by the same company that made its predecessor, that doesn't mean that the sequel hasn't been "dumbed down."

    Don't Buy the Hype

    If I were a betting man, I'd say that the Fallout communities should brace for impact. Bethesda has made several indications that it will steer the Fallout franchise away from what made it special.

    Bethesda is a clear example of the fact that regardless of how well a company behaved in the past, it still has the chance to develop into a soulless money-making machine. They've used bullying and scare tactics in an attempt to silence fan communities, and have given no indication that they give a damn what the fans think. In addition to all of that, they have recently made the announcement that they are seeking a community manager[44], a move that appears to further Bethesda's policy of seeking control over fan communities.

    The current project lead of Fallout 3 is a man whose development experience is dominated by action games, and turned Bethesda's own in-house adventure franchise into an action franchise.

    There is tremendous cause for worry. Don't buy the hype.

    Citations & Links:
    [21]Private Messages from Vault Dweller
    [24]Emails from Victor
    [30]Private Messages from Kharn

    If you liked this piece, please repost it on other forums using the .txt version here:'tbuythehype.txt
    • [Like] [Like] x 11
  2. DirtyDreamDesigner

    DirtyDreamDesigner Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 15, 2005
    Very good read, if a bit verbose.
  3. taxacaria

    taxacaria It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 18, 2005
    Very detailed, very good read.
    Can't agree to all quotes on TES, but that are few things of minor weight.
    The main problem - the PR / VM / franchise policy - is shown very precisely.
    Beware of Auntie Beth.
  4. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    I spent three days editing this thing, and I still managed to misspell "unknowable." Somebody shoot me.
  5. Nova

    Nova It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jul 1, 2006
    It came out great!

    Some of the acronyms were a bit confusing at first, but I got the jist of it.
  6. RPG of the year!!

    RPG of the year!! First time out of the vault

    Jan 23, 2007
    thot ppl wuld liek 2 kno:

    Because it was locked, the newspost for this article isn't displaying under 'News for Monday, February 12', only the 'Latest Headlines' sidebar. That just looks weird.
  7. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 3, 2003
    Can I get a whooops?

  8. King of Creation

    King of Creation Vault Fossil

    Dec 9, 2003
    Fabulously written and well thought out.
  9. Bradylama

    Bradylama Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 22, 2003
    Also, Kharn, don't feel bad if there aren't some of your editing suggestions in the early part of the piece. I think I must've accidentally deleted the changes and saved over from an older file.

    I screwed up, basically, but considering this is the first time I've even attempted something like it I feel fairly satisfied.
  10. Goweigus

    Goweigus Mildly Dipped

    Jan 18, 2007
    Great read thx
    really helped educate me as to how Oblivion is crap compared to its siblings

    And gave me more details on how much Bethesda is screwing peopel over
  11. Pope Viper

    Pope Viper This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 9, 2003
    Agreed. Great article.
  12. Mad Max RW

    Mad Max RW Mildly Dipped

    Jan 12, 2004
    One of the best articles I read on this site or any Fallout site dating back to Killian's early Kiddie Pools. Spread it around. I'd love to see the Something Awful goons' responses.
  13. SemperFi2382

    SemperFi2382 First time out of the vault

    Jul 30, 2004
    It's a wonder that people don't see thru the veil that B... puts up. Hypocritical statements, lies and the can't do any wrong attitude is exactly what is wrong with the way some companies in the industry behave.

    The more I look at it, it's all about selling as many copies of "product" as they can, while trying to be everbody's friend. Which is funny considering that they turn around and say you can't please everyone to displace the blame.

    Enough babbling and ranting though.

    This article while lengthy, was well done. I agree with the statement of not buying the hype. As a long time gamer, I never have and hopefully, never will.

    (Turn Based ftw!)
  14. Rainstorm

    Rainstorm It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 15, 2003
    A very good read,if a tad too long for my taste when it comes to reading on the screen since I stick with CRT's.(but it had to be as long to make all the points,so it's not a complaint,just a matter of personal preference)

    I wonder though if someone at Beth reads it and takes notice?
    The answer I'd expect to be that many read it,but noone takes notice...
  15. Victor1st

    Victor1st First time out of the vault

    Feb 5, 2007
    Ohhh yeah, they are reading it. I know that Bethesda staff still visit my site regularly and the latest news post on STG has the title of....

    Bethesda Softworks - Judge, Jury & Executioner

    It links to the article. Very well written and very well presented.
  16. chewie

    chewie Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Dec 3, 2005
    Awesome Bradylama, that´s awesome...

    Thanks for the words, we´ll spread them.

  17. Rainstorm

    Rainstorm It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 15, 2003
    The question (or rather thought) was more if they take notice,rather than just read it,which I think they won't...but knowing they'll read it is always good.(maybe it'll put a little seed of doubt in their minds)
    Good to hear you're spreading the word.

    It may be very different games and universes,but you've been disappointed previously and we will most likely be it later on...again...(and DaC and NMA will most likely be treated the same way as you've already been)
  18. zioburosky13

    zioburosky13 Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 24, 2004
  19. Duckman

    Duckman Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 18, 2005
    Great work Bradylama! I read it twice through to make sure I didn't miss anything :D
  20. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all

    Apr 3, 2003
    If I were angry about you not following suggestions, they'd be orders, not suggestions. Heh.