sea said:
As I said: Oblivion has a great underlying framework and huge potential for being a great RPG.
The problem is, it hasn't. It is hugely dumbed down system, none of your stats do actually matter, as already said. How is it a great cRPG if none of your stats do matter in it? Just because there are many variables (which are never used for creative use anyway) it doesn't mean there is huge "freedom". What you are saying here, is that "it could be good if it would be a totally different game" which can be applied to almost every other game. If we are going by that, Need for Speed Underground 2 has also a huge potential for being a great RPG - by following your logic "it has the potential" which is just not being used.
Meaning, if there is none of the actual "potential" being used in the original game, it is nonexistant.
Surf Solar said:
What interactivity with the enviroment is there?
Okay, fair enough, I took that as general interactivity with the game world and its inhabitants. Still, I don't see how that makes Oblivion less interactive than other games, unless of course your idea of environment interaction is pointing the mouse at a wall in Fallout and "You see: Cave wall" popping up.
For what it's worth, Fallout 3 has just as much interactivity with the environment as the original games do, if not more (reading computer terminals, being able to pick up and move most items - even weaponizing some of it, lockpicking, etc.). There are also a few special cases for quests, although New Vegas tended to do more of that. Oblivion, not so much, but I think at least that demonstrates Bethesda are learning. Still working on ladders, though.
What Gamechanger is the ability to pick up an item and drop it somewhere else? All it does it utilizing the
players ability to hold the z-button, no actual stats are checked against. It's shit and only serves for larping purposes (oh holy shit I can decorate my house!11) aside from the quests you've mentionend which were pretty mediocre, didn't use any character stat and served no challenge at all.
Instead of
nothing in Bethesdas Games, I actually prefer the "you see: Wall" etc stuff, thank you.
Surf Solar said:
You mean like in 90% of all other RPGs?
Most RPGs let you pickpocket NPCs? News to me. Plenty do, but plenty are also so heavily focused on combat that something even approaching a stealth path is never even considered. The number of RPGs that let you progress in a quest, bypass a locked door, etc. by pickpocketing from an NPC are actually quite small - it's far more common to simply handle that stuff using the magic of scripting rather than giving NPCs actual physical items for the player to "borrow." In any case, nitpicking.
I dunno, the ability to steal stuff from NPC is just widely spread, hell even some Action RPGs did that. :S I don't know how this is news to you. Ofcourse you could pickpocket some stuff in NV/FO3/Oblivion, but not when it comes to magically locked doors which were even too hard for your PC if you didn't have the magic key which you only get by the same "magic of scripting" you just mentionend. Cool, isn't it? A truely magnificient RPG framework.
Surf Solar said:
Which only happens in instanced scripted events and boils down to the same like said above - "cool there are multiple ways to kill an enemy"
The same for this "re-animate npc corpses" - what use do they have? They can't be really used to solve quests in an intelligent way nor do your stats matter anywhere, opposing to Arcanum where you re-animating your fallen enemies could have a major impact on solving particular quests.
Actually, those sorts of methods of assassination work on just about any NPC, as pretty much all NPCs eat food. If a poisoned apple is the most convenient or only available food, they'll eat it and end up dead. Again, see my point about potential being squandered and wasted, which I've reiterated about five times now.
Agreed, no need to repeat that again.
Surf Solar said:
What is this amazing NPC interaction you speak of?
Having universal systems which determine NPC disposition, allegiance, moral alignment, racial biases in reacting to the player, and so on, which all directly correspond to radiant AI behaviour, i.e. NPCs with low responsibility scores will sneak around and pickpocket other NPCs, steal from stores, etc., and NPCs in a hostile faction will attack the player (that this isn't utilized save for when the player goes on a crime spree is again, another example of wasted potential).
C'mon, you don't want to be an apologist for the "radiant ai" now? As said, all this shit may work in theory, in some pocket plane some dozen dimensions afar,
in reality it's just a big pile of shit.
Hell, even Arcanum, with so many flaws in the system did it better than "radiant.
The persuasion system, though basic across the Elder Scrolls games, can be manipulated to make NPCs both like and hate you, which can tie in with quests (sometimes getting someone pissed off at you can be useful, especially in a game like Morrowind where you want to kill an NPC in "self defense"), and furthermore, it ties in with the Mercantile skill by allowing the player to manipulate merchants and invest into stores, gain better prices, that sort of thing. Yes, the game's dialogue sucks, and yes, these sorts of options are rarely if ever used intelligently by Bethesda, but they still offer more than most other games, and they would make for some really awesome gameplay if expanded upon a bit and actually used for something interesting.
So you mean using exploits to gain the best advantage from npc even if not intended by the game means "freedom"?
Again, I think you misinterpret me. I'm not trying to say Oblivion/Morrowind/Skyrim are the greatest games ever, but Bethesda undeniably have some really good ideas that are always let down by shoddy and lazy execution, or simply because Bethesda lack the creativity to ever turn them into anything good. The terrible writing, voice acting, quest design, and so on also always make the failings and shortcomings of the games even more apparent. But a game in the Bethesda mould, which actually used what it had intelligently and within the context of good game mechanics and an interesting game world? That would be pretty cool in my opinion, and it's that potential that attracts so many players.
I've never said they don't have good ideas. I will probably even enjoy the first 1-2 hours of Skyrim (my brother preordered it) for the icy landscapes. The problem is, this has nothing to do with RPGs. All these ideas of them you mentionend are just buried under design decisions rendering their own potentially good framework useless. Stats don't matter. The Twitch Button matters. All of their "freedom" could be there if they'd actually spent some effort, which they didn't. Maybe I really misunderstood you, - their framework
could work, but it doesn't. That's why I questionend your statement that the framework is very good.
