Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
- Thread starter Korin
- Start date
Vault Dweller
This looks more and more like Gothic 3, only better graphics. Which won't save the game in long term if it is dumbed down. I certainly wont pay for it if it doesn't have at least the same repeatability like Morrowind has.
What's up with so much furry anyway? Where are those Daedra armors and temples?
What's up with so much furry anyway? Where are those Daedra armors and temples?
What? That's really... dumb.
Will have to wait and see. Personally, I am happy not to have to sneak around in a circle somewhere casting mysticism/restoration spells to make sure I get a full +5 bonus to three stats on level. I hated that system, I had a stack of leveling sheets by my side for every playthrough.
SmartCheetah
It Wandered In From the Wastes
verevoof said:
That's where mainstream RPG genre is going. Getting rid of stats, getting rid of skills, simplifying every possible feature, cutting health problems down et cetera. It's totally dumb.
Funniest example is Fable 3(First one had few RPG elements, so lets say it's action rpg. New ones are more like adventure games) where you can't even use inventory screen anymore, because they've dumbed it down. You HAVE TO teleport into some fuckin' sanctuary and find item in the room if you want to give or wear it.
Just imagine how DUMB is giving gifts to any npc. Instead of just using inventory screen, you have to teleport, find proper item, teleport back. @.o W T F.
But if all you have to worry about is health, magicka, and stamina, how can this game be an RPG? Oh, right, choosing your eyebrow thickness and dressing up.
It's fine if they want to go into a whole adventure game with combat focus, but they better bill it as such.
It's fine if they want to go into a whole adventure game with combat focus, but they better bill it as such.
Yeah, sadly.SmartCheetah said:
The only thing that would bother me is in Morrowind/Oblivion you got faster/jumped higher as you leveled up speed and agility. It was a sweet feeling to max that out at 100+ and fly from roof top to roof top.
How so ? It is not like Oblivion or Morrowind had much use for the "classes" anyway. It was meaningless anyway since most of the classes you could chose had no purpose and some skills even outright useless. But I can not say I liked the way how you level up in Oblivion really. It made playing a merchant for example impossible. But well yeah ... any diplomacy was not possible in Oblivion anyway.verevoof said:
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Graphics are good enough, I guess, but after videos of TW2 and playing Crysis 2 they aren't really impressive. I only hope that new engine is better than old Gamebryo. One sad thing is that it will probably be much more complex, and thus likely less moddable (we will see to what extent, I do not think Beth is willing to risk upsetting their huge modding fanbase).
Getting rid of stats and skills like Acrobatics is meh to me, but some were a waste of time (like that worthless Luck stat). I am just a little sad to see what was a pretty unique skill system be axed. I imagine it also allows them to use their beloved level scaling without the player having to worry about absolutely getting those +5 modifiers (damn but that combination was incredibly dumb).
That Radiant questing looks absolutely useless however. No amount of fancy tech replaces good writing and planning a response to every action the player takes.
Also, bit of a rant from me, but I am surprised to see JeuxVideo.Com (and other sites too, but they are the worst) absolutely praise TW2 and Skyrim over their actionized components shortly after thrashing DA2 for just that reason. The changes to the gameplay are far more drastic in the first two games.
Getting rid of stats and skills like Acrobatics is meh to me, but some were a waste of time (like that worthless Luck stat). I am just a little sad to see what was a pretty unique skill system be axed. I imagine it also allows them to use their beloved level scaling without the player having to worry about absolutely getting those +5 modifiers (damn but that combination was incredibly dumb).
That Radiant questing looks absolutely useless however. No amount of fancy tech replaces good writing and planning a response to every action the player takes.
Also, bit of a rant from me, but I am surprised to see JeuxVideo.Com (and other sites too, but they are the worst) absolutely praise TW2 and Skyrim over their actionized components shortly after thrashing DA2 for just that reason. The changes to the gameplay are far more drastic in the first two games.
Well, I'm not fond of Oblivion and never played Morrowind, so...Crni Vuk said:
How so, you ask? Because they bill the game as a RPG, when each game they make in the series becomes more and more removed from the genre. It's an action-adventure game (fine, I'll say it) with "RPG elements." And we all know it's going to be the "RPG of the year."
Eh, whatever, we know what we're going to get from Bethesda.
Is Skyrim going to have the horrible level-scaling system that Oblivion had? I mean seriously, if you have glass armour then why are you still a bandit?
Well to be fair this was more or less the way the Elder Scrolls always used it though. Now I never played Daggerfall but it never was the kind of "RPG" like Fallout or something comparable. It seems the past games even have their roots in the Diablo/Roguelike design. Though the interesting part is that different players will like or dislike Oblivion for different reasons. Those which loved Daggerfall might complain that Oblivion (and Morrowind as well) did nothing or almost nothing to advance the setting as both Morrowind and Oblivion are from the world a lot smaller compared to the past games which would I think show the whole world and give you a chance to visit every place. The downside to that is of course that nothing was really hand placed nor did it really looked much different. But different people have different expectations and affections. Of course. Oblivion was just shit though. But that is my humble opinionverevoof said:
Though only because Bethesda never managed to make them useful regarding game play and/or story. Though that does not mean they are inherently useless. I remember that Dagerfall had skills for language even (and a lot more) and it seems you could use those to understand some races and written informations. The Raven Ad don Gothic 2 had an skill for some ancient language which you could level up which was also very useful. Though even in the past Bethesda never aimed to make really a game where diplomacy would give you eventually the same success like using weapons or force against enemies. Well in Oblivion even less then compared to Morrowind.Ilosar said:
Target Audience strikes again. Cool.
There was really too much to worry about in the old games. And who wants to worry while playing? Im still a bit nervous about that worrysome health part. Does it mean my char will die if its depleted? That would worry me. And im not sure i could handle spellspamming if magicka is limited. There is still room for improvement i see, hop to it Todd.
Any word yet on the Construction Set? I hope there will be a giant boner mod soon after release.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
As I understand it, RPG does not necessarily mean a game with stats. I've long been wondering why these things have been often referred to as "RPG elements". Sure a lot of classic RPG's have them but is that what makes a role playing game?
Maybe there is an actual official definition but I understand it as a game with a world that reacts to your behavior. In other words, it's a world where you can play a meaningful role, not just a very static backdrop to gameplay that is essentially detached from it. In FPS, the world is often just a wrapping of a variation of whack-a-mole gameplay and in a lot of adventure games, it is there to create a reason for your platforming or your fighting. In RPG's, the world IS the actual gameplay.
Combat or platforming or anything else are just additions to RPG's. The actual role playing gameplay can have no combat at all, it can just consist of making decisions that will have varying outcomes. So, technically, if Skyrim removes things like stats and loot management completely, it can still be a real RPG, if it allows you to make a noticeable difference in the game world through your actions.
Sure, it is Bethesda and we all know that it won't do that but why does removing attributes disqualify it from being an RPG in any way?
Edit: Personally, I do enjoy loot hunting and all that management that normally comes with RPG games. I'm just saying that I don't understand how that is role playing.
Maybe there is an actual official definition but I understand it as a game with a world that reacts to your behavior. In other words, it's a world where you can play a meaningful role, not just a very static backdrop to gameplay that is essentially detached from it. In FPS, the world is often just a wrapping of a variation of whack-a-mole gameplay and in a lot of adventure games, it is there to create a reason for your platforming or your fighting. In RPG's, the world IS the actual gameplay.
Combat or platforming or anything else are just additions to RPG's. The actual role playing gameplay can have no combat at all, it can just consist of making decisions that will have varying outcomes. So, technically, if Skyrim removes things like stats and loot management completely, it can still be a real RPG, if it allows you to make a noticeable difference in the game world through your actions.
Sure, it is Bethesda and we all know that it won't do that but why does removing attributes disqualify it from being an RPG in any way?
Edit: Personally, I do enjoy loot hunting and all that management that normally comes with RPG games. I'm just saying that I don't understand how that is role playing.
^ cRPGs appeared as adaptations or imitations of PnP RPGs, and those came with elaborate stat and character development systems (as far as my limited knowledge of PnP goes). Hence "RPG elements".
A game with an interactive, reactive world without those elements can be an adventure game or a visual novel. In fact, many early cRPGs concentrated on the "elements" over the interaction.
A game with an interactive, reactive world without those elements can be an adventure game or a visual novel. In fact, many early cRPGs concentrated on the "elements" over the interaction.
that is correct I think. But that was in a time when those stats had some meaning. Like inteligence making "your" character a better "speaker" eventually instead of simply giving you "more mana so youre a better spell-caster-spamer thingy of warrior".
maximaz said:
Stats arent the only way to make a RPG. As you said, good storytelling with lots of different solutions or a complex world with different ways to interact with can do that too. But how many games do that ? Its far easier to do it with stats and different builds. If your sneak skill is high enough, you sneak past. If your armor and strenght is good, slug it out, if you choose a diplomatic character, talk your way around. Stats are the oldest and easiest way to mould a character the way you like it and then play the role you have assigned to him. But the way RPGs are going, the choice of role is already made by the developer.
Anyway, all this is not the problem. Its not the choice to remove stats thats wrong, its the reason they (and others) give for removing them. Its worrysome, its too complicated, it detracts from the flow of the game, it melts their little brains, who wants to figure out this stuff anyway…. stupid blah all the way. If they want to do some diablo like game go ahead, there is nothing wrong with that. But they bend our ears about how a feature is old, superfluous, complicated, unaccesible and all that shit just because they cant come up with a decent system that has impact on gameplay. Problem is, they still want to call their games RPGs, they are hailed as RPGs, and good ones at that. But I cant choose to kill the emperors heir, i cant choose to show dad the middlefinger, i cant side with daedra/enclave or do my own thing. Not in the mainquest and not in sidequests. And if i dont make a choice, the world stands still. Daedras and Enclaves alike hold their breath until i decide to exchange a one liner with a sorry excuse for a npc. So storywise the games are far from being a RPG. Now i cant even choose to focus on my stealthskills, spells or combat prowess. I can do anything but choose if i want a furry ass or not. So how is this even remotely anything like a RPG ? But i dont doubt for a second that Skyrim will be the RPG of the year and get lots of awards for being a deep and exciting and immersive game.
I dont get why they dont grow up and admit they are just doing action games. Must be an ego thing i think.
sampson70
Still Mildly Glowing
I read from a Q/A from Beth forums & info from Ausgamers site,that "basically"perk system will make up for the attributes.There are supposed to be like 280 perks and the pc gets a max of 50.If this turns out to be the case,then imo this would not be "dumbing" down...at all.It will frankly be a new leveling system...
The leveling system was in dire need of an overhaul. It wasn't "too complicated" or "worrisome", it was tedious and bothersome. I don't know about you but a game where I have to choose "major skills" of things that I'll never use just so I can control my actual major skills (which must now be minor) to prevent leveling up and missing important attribute boosts was a terrible, terrible system:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling
There's no need to hold on to archaic systems simply for the sake of nostalgia or the perceived belief that it some how enhances the gameplay. It wasn't only unnecessarily complicated, it was completely counter-intuitive.
The idea of "perks" and skill trees isn't new but it's popular because it works and makes sense.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Leveling
There's no need to hold on to archaic systems simply for the sake of nostalgia or the perceived belief that it some how enhances the gameplay. It wasn't only unnecessarily complicated, it was completely counter-intuitive.
The idea of "perks" and skill trees isn't new but it's popular because it works and makes sense.
I agree and dissagree. If you say it was unnecessary in Oblivion. Then I agree. If you say that in generall I dissagree. It is more Bethesda never thinking about ways how to come up with a leveling system where you could actually make use of the many different skills (like acrobatics or anything similar).korindabar said: