Emil Pagliarulo on Writing for Fallout 4

[Crni Vuk]

This is more a problem of visuals presentation and taste, not because it's first person. See, some really old RPGs had even turn based first person combat, and it worked for its time.

You have to ask your self one thing, would you enjoy it more, if every possibilty was visualy covered? If yes, than ask your self why, because what matters is if the mechanics are sound and if they work. Morrowind was far from a perfect game here, but it had more debth than any Bethesda game that followed it.

 

[Risewild]

I actually prefer the combat in Morrowind than in newer Bethesda games. It is faithful to P&P RPGs which was the goal of the first TES games (and pretty much every cRPG made back then).
Also not to forget that all the cRPG back then did that. Or are you going to also say that iconic games like AD&D Eye of the Beholder, Pool of Radiance and all the other Gold Box SSI games, the Ultima games, Wasteland 1, etc. are all bad games because the combat depiction sucks?

Since I love P&P I really like the combat to work the way it does because it is the character's skill that is counting to hit the enemy, not the player's one.
Who cares for visual representation of hitting or missing the enemy? Do we not understand the mechanics that are working behind the combat? Your character sucks at using longswords so it will miss 99% of the time, but the game sucks because I can't see the graphics miss? Such a horrible combat!

Much better than Skyrim enemies teleporting "like magic" to dodge arrows they didn't even know were coming at them. All you have to do to kill enemies is run backwards while swinging a long reach weapon or strafe while clicking frantically...

 

[0wing]

You have to ask your self one thing, would you enjoy it more, if every possibilty was visualy covered?

No. I would enjoy it more if it was isometric and turn-based, for this specific case. The mechanics are not deep enough to coexist with RT and compete freedom of movement. Neither Skyrim with Oblivion, but for different reasons. You're repurposing words here. I tried shiny Morrowind (MGE XE and other fancy stuff), and it still was crap.

It is faithful to P&P RPGs

If it was faithful to PnP, it wouldn't be in first person with complete movement freedom. And it wouldn't be real time. Nope, it's just uninspired way to make combat.

Wasteland 1

Yup, bad but not for it's gameplay, although gameplay didn't stand a test of time unlike Ultima.

 

[Risewild]

If it was faithful to PnP, it wouldn't be in first person with complete movement freedom. And it wouldn't be real time. Nope, it's just uninspired way to make combat.

The combat system is quite faithful, it hits when you get a good roll and misses when you don't (dependent of your weapon skill), the character's skills do everything in the game. That is being faithful to P&P RPG.
By the way, even being real time doesn't make it less faithful; to speed up combat in D&D I many times had real time battles. Basically everyone rolls around the same time and we see who hits or misses and how much damage it happens, it is not perfect real time because that is impossible, but it is pretty close.

I still don't understand what is uninspired about it, I really can't see anything uninspired at all... Just because you see the weapon swing and nothing happens doesn't mean it's uninspired... It was already like that in Arena and Daggerfall too. It was like that in the Golden Box and any other first person cRPG ever made before Morrowind, it was like that in any cRPG not in first person too, sometimes you would see just your character swing a sword and not even be near the enemy in the screen and still hit or miss. Why is Morrowind the only uninspired one? Because it was made by Bethesda?

 

[Kohno]

Yes, just flavour. But it's also happens that Morrowind combat is extra bad

I understood it wasn't to your particular tastes, already. It just happens here that what you think makes it bad, makes it good for me. It could be better in a lot of ways (and I stated a couple already), but I wouldn't like it if it had dodge rolling or some weird combos that I was forced to use. I despise games that rely on shit like that. I like the RNG just fine and can tolerate the abstraction since it reminds me of playing real cRPG's and PnP RPG's and not some halfwit action-rolling shit every game masquerading as an RPG today is like.

But being fast makes it dynamic enough to...

No, it just makes it faster.

popamolowind

No, it's because developers were so ambitious they forgot about developing a competent game and forgot about standards.

That's what I was saying.

 

[0wing]

That's what I was saying.

But you forgiving Morrowind for lack of standards.

I still don't understand what is uninspired about it

Play Deus Ex again and come back to say Morrowind is not uninspiring in my face, I dare you.

It was already like that in Arena and Daggerfall too.

Yes, but they were made in 1990s, and in Daggerfall you virtually swing your sword with mouse, unlike press LMB to roll in TES3. Also no backstabbing, replaced with sneak crits and never changed since then up to Fallout 4. Also, Dodge was in Daggerfall.
I also don't remember being frustrated with my 1st level character in Daggerfall unlike TES3.

 

[Kohno]

But you forgiving Morrowind for lack of standards.

No, I don't forgive the lack of standards even on Fallout. I've said Morrowind was the last Bethesda game that was an honest RPG, and that I was able to have fun with it despite its shortcomings, not that its shortcomings do not matter or need no fixing (they just need a different fixes than what you've so far proposed).

Play Deus Ex again and come back to say Morrowind is not uninspiring in my face, I dare you.

I have played Deus Ex several time and it aims for a different kind of experience.

I also do not need to squeeze every game in the same mold as others. Some games just work well for how they are. I.E. Deus Ex never ever needed to be fixed to be an FPS like what Eidos Montreal did to it; similiarly Morrowind never needed to be fixed to be an FPP Diablo in Oblivion; etc -- both needed fixes and improvements, but neither got what they deserved.

 

[0wing]

they just need a different fixes than what you've so far proposed

They broke what was working in Daggerfall, so the real fix is lying in Bethesda's previous main TES game. Also, no. Parry is fucking important.

I have played Deus Ex several time and it aims for a different kind of experience.

It's just an example how stat-based combat could work.

 

[Kohno]

so the real fix is lying in Bethesda's previous main TES game.

That's one way.

Also, no. Parry is fucking important.

It's not "fucking important". I never missed it and there was blocking already. Not even after playing Oblivion or Skyrim. I had the control over everything, when I blocked/parried, whether or not my swings landed, and I made much better notice on how fucking stale it all felt (and feels). Odd as it may sound, the RNG in both cases - just like it does in TB games - made all the difference in how rewarding every success felt.

It's just an example how stat-based combat could work.

One example.

 

[0wing]

One example.

VS stripping down to zero in Morrowind.

It's not "fucking important". I never missed it and there was blocking already. Not even after playing Oblivion or Skyrim. I had the control over everything, when I blocked/parried, whether or not my swings landed, and I made much better notice on how fucking stale it all felt (and feels). Odd as it may sound, the RNG in both cases - just like it does in TB games - made all the difference in how rewarding every success felt.

Or you're just really forgiving when it comes to having dice rolls whenever the game does add something to it or not. Or if it's not on it's place. Seriously, was there any good reason besides following the tradtition to make TES3 in 1st person with free movement?

That's one way.

Legit way within TES series, suprising?

 

[Risewild]

Play Deus Ex again and come back to say Morrowind is not uninspiring in my face, I dare you.

Morrowind combat is not uninspired...
Deus Ex combat is nothing special either to be honest... While the game is great, the combat is quite bleh too. you can go through the entire first part just by sneaking and attacking with a crowbar no matter how good your simple weapon skill is... Also Deus Ex is focused on stealth and guns (yes you can use melee and explosives, but using those is quite bleh like I said). Both games focus on different styles.

Yes, but they were made in 1990s, and in Daggerfall you virtually swing your sword with mouse, unlike press LMB to roll in TES3. Also no backstabbing, replaced with sneak crits and never changed since then up to Fallout 4. Also, Dodge was in Daggerfall.

The mouse movement was stupid as hell to be honest, and you needed a big mouse pad space to be able to do it properly, have to keep doing it over and over until it's your turn to have another attack (since there is a "cooldown" time between attacks) and it was quite clunky, nevermind trying in a laptop touchpad. Morrowind does it better because you can chop, slash or thrust depending on the direction keys you press while attacking. Not to mention that particular types of weapons deal different ammounts of damage depending on the attack type, so for example axes deal more damage with chops while dealing less with slash and even less with thrust.
Sneak Criticals are the backstabbing, the idea is that if you sneak and have all the time in the world to hit the enemy without him seeing or be on guard you can hit where it hurts... An arrow between the eyes would hurt as much as a backstabbing or more and can only be done if you're in front of the enemy, for example.
Dodge works differently in Morrowind, it is not a skill and works by this formula: ((Agility / 5) + (Luck / 10)) * (0.75 + 0.5 * Current Fatigue / Maximum Fatigue) + Sanctuary spell effect Magnitude. For a skill you would use Block, which uses the same formula as the Dodge but it adds the Block skill value too.

Also in Morrowind you have the stagger and knockdown combat effects, which depend on damage dealt and the character's being hit Agility, hammers for example have a higher chance of doing that, unarmed attacks also do that if the character being hit runs out of stamina (KO), spells are completely superior in Morrowind too compared to Arena and Daggerfall, combat is more complex and complicated behind "the scenes" and it is definitely "superior" since it takes into account a higher amount of values, attack types, stats, etc.

 

[Kohno]

Or you're just really forgiving when it comes to having dice rolls

They are on the right path, afterall, even if some tweaking is sometimes needed.

 

[Risewild]

They broke what was working in Daggerfall, so the real fix is lying in Bethesda's previous main TES game. Also, no. Parry is fucking important.

Dude, in Daggerfall all you needed to do to win a fight was to hit the enemy once and step back one step and wait for the enemy again, do this and repeat and the enemy will not be able to attack even once... Enemies when hit go back one step too, then they have to close in to be able to start attacking again, by that time you also walked back one step and are now ready to attack again because the attack cooldown is now over, so you attack the enemy and he staggers back again... This was a real strategy back in the day and IIRC mentioned in many sites too...

EDIT: A quick google search and I found it already, and there are even worst things about combat in Daggerfall I had totally forgotten about:

Backing up while fighting can help prevent being hit. A hit on the monster causes it to be knocked back, and if the character backs up quickly enough, the monster will not have a chance to attack before the character is ready to strike a blow. By the time the monster has advanced enough to strike, the character can swing again, back up, and repeat.

Arrows can be shot through doors, and if you're in the void, they can also be shot through walls.

If you're both using melee weapons, position yourself behind an object like a shelf in a store so that you can hit your opponent without your opponent hitting you.

Take advantage of XnGine's difficulty with corners and stairways. Both monsters and the player can get "stuck" when rounding corners, but the monsters usually walk in a straight line and won't try to move off the corner. Some monsters, like zombies or giants, can't climb stairways at all.

Some enemies seldom or never use ranged attacks, so stay back and use ranged attacks on them for an easy kill.

Getting extremely close to some enemies and striking them relentlessly will sometimes prevent them from being able to counterattack, effectively "stunlocking" them.

 

[0wing]

Dude, in Daggerfall all you needed to do to win a fight was to hit the enemy once and step back one step and wait for the enemy again

At least it's strategy, in 3/4/5 all you need is backpedaling.

Deus Ex combat is nothing special either to be honest...

Than you're just too forgiving for TES3.

 

[Risewild]

At least it's strategy, in 3/4/5 all you need is backpedaling.

That is exactly what you do in Daggerfall too... All you have to do is go backwards and swing the weapon once it's close. I added the stop after one step there because you can rest from attack nonstop, but the strategy was to go backwards too.

Backing up while fighting can help prevent being hit. A hit on the monster causes it to be knocked back, and if the character backs up quickly enough, the monster will not have a chance to attack before the character is ready to strike a blow. By the time the monster has advanced enough to strike, the character can swing again, back up, and repeat.

Not to mention stuff like arrows go through doors, or walking forward against an enemy and attack nonstop could "stunlock" it, or attack from behind a shelf of pillar would hit the enemy but the enemy wouldn't attack you... I will quote the thing again.

...

Arrows can be shot through doors, and if you're in the void, they can also be shot through walls.

If you're both using melee weapons, position yourself behind an object like a shelf in a store so that you can hit your opponent without your opponent hitting you.

Take advantage of XnGine's difficulty with corners and stairways. Both monsters and the player can get "stuck" when rounding corners, but the monsters usually walk in a straight line and won't try to move off the corner. Some monsters, like zombies or giants, can't climb stairways at all.

Some enemies seldom or never use ranged attacks, so stay back and use ranged attacks on them for an easy kill.

Getting extremely close to some enemies and striking them relentlessly will sometimes prevent them from being able to counterattack, effectively "stunlocking" them.

 

[Kohno]

At least it's strategy

Come one man. Aren't you being too forgiving for what passes off as "strategy".

 

[0wing]

Come one man. Aren't you being too forgiving for what passes off as "strategy".

That is exactly what you do in Daggerfall too... All you have to do is go backwards and swing the weapon once it's close. I added the stop after one step there because you can rest from attack nonstop, but the strategy was to go backwards too.

Why it wasn't improved since then? And why it wasn't improved in Oblivion?

Not to mention stuff like arrows go through doors, or walking forward against an enemy and attack nonstop could "stunlock" it, or attack from behind a shelf of pillar would hit the enemy but the enemy wouldn't attack you... I will quote the thing again.

What can I say? Daggerfall is far from perfect, but Bethesda had six years to improve, yet they tore down everything and made different.... game.

 

[Kohno]

Why it wasn't improved since then? And why it wasn't improved in Oblivion?

Because Bethesda is full of shit and intentionally hasn't been making full-on RPG's ever since the game we are - for some reason - arguing about. This shouldn't be something that needs to be said.

 

[0wing]

Come one man. Aren't you being too forgiving for what passes off as "strategy".

You can also mess with them as a mage casting invisibilty and walking away a few squares.

Because Bethesda is full of shit and hasn't been making full-on RPG's ever since the game we are - for some reason - arguing about. This shouldn't be something that needs to be said.

It's full of shit yet some shit gets free pass while other shit derived from that shit is suddenly shit and no one ever saw it coming. C'mon.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Elder scrolls IMO never had much strategy... ;(