I don't know, I am not talking about Oblivion, I am saying that Morrowind's combat is not uninspired compared to any previous cRPG.
Emil Pagliarulo on Writing for Fallout 4
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0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
It doesn't matter in cRPGs because your character fights while you only observe from isometric POV, not YOU in the middle of the fight. In dungeon crawlers you're not personally dancing aroung in the middle of the fight.
It doesn't matter if you see through the character's eyes either, the first cRPGs were ALL first person...
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
In arena and daggerfall it wasn't pretty exciting, but it wasn't 21st century yet either and bethesda didn't contest with Gothic and Deus Ex. The difference between layout in Df and Mw makes it more noticeable in combat as all fight in DF were mostly on flat ground on the same level while in Mw it varied alot.
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Kohno
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
I have no idea what you're talking about anymore. Throughout this exchange you've been hell bent on proving me wrong about something I can't really pinpoint (that Morrowind was the last honest RPG Beth has made? That I am wrong for appreciating its gameplay?) and for a reason I have no idea what it is (Being able to appreciate Morrowind for what it is, to the extent it is possible, whereas you can not?).
No, seriously. I haven't denied the games problems, nor given "free passes" on any fucking thing. All I've done is I've said I can appreciate the games mechanics for how they resemble an RPG over what came after it, and that I disagree with your disagreement of me doing so for the reasons I have.
I have pretty much the same problem as you Kohno.
All I said was that Morrowind didn't have an uninspired combat compared to all previous cRPGs before and that since the character uses it's own skills for combat and all the other stuff then it was being faithful to P&P ones...
Yes, Morrowind has problems, Daggerfall has problems, Arena has problems, Deus Ex has problems, Gothic has problems, pretty much every single cRPG has problems, but that doesn't mean they are bad games in general, specially when looking at their RPG systems. Now fast forward to Oblivion, Fallout 3, Skyrim and Fallout 4... Those games suck in terms of RPG systems and are definitely not even a tiny bit faithful to P&P (Oblivion still tried a little bit).
That was pretty much what I said...
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
And I still have no idea why Morrowind is tolerable outside of having dicerolls in combat and why it's in one league as other less problematic
Kohno
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
If Morrowind had no dicerolls (any; combat or outside of it), it would be a lesser game for it. Why would one want to think of it not as a whole but rather chop it to parts like that, "outside of combat dicerolls", what's the use of doing that? If you look at Deus Ex purely as a combat game, it is shit beyond any proportion, and the same if you look at as not having any combat possibilities/opportunities anywhere. It's just as much a sum of its parts as Morrowind is; they both just do their shit differently.
I will explain: Morrowind is tolerable and in the same league as other Action RPGs from it's era because it is a damn good game and has a solid RPG system, has good expansions, has good writing, has the best Books in any videogame (IIRC it even got literary awards or something), has interesting characters, interesting quests, interesting world, interesting magic and spell making system, has plenty of player freedom and choice and consequence (which seems quite important these days), great dungeons, interesting enemies, awesome soundtrack, etc.
Really bad is clunky dialogue system that feels like you're clicking through wikipedia links and clunky combat (which is pretty much like the previous TES but with nicer graphics).
So that is why.
0wing
Все умрут, а я волномут
But is there a good reason to play a game instead of reading a teswiki? Aside from text, it's all subjective. Spellmaking is not a unique feature. Eternal Darkness, Two Worlds 2, The Legend of Dragoon. And actual spellcasting a bit boring, Arx Fatalis did it better.
Twitcher 3 got a fuckton awards for it's story despite having godawful 3rd act, so?
It's shit only for not being Unreal Tournament 99. Which is actually good.
Kohno
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
If you already think it (Morrowind) is full of shit, there's no reason for you to play it.
Now you're just saying bullshit for the sake or arguing. First, in Eternal Darkness you do not craft spells in it, you use runes and mix them to form specific spells. It is much simple than the Morrowind one and can't do as much either, also that game was released in the same year but after Morrowind, so it didn't even exist before Morrowind.
Two Worlds 2 is a game made eight years after Morrowind... Also the spell crafting system only allows specific spells and effects (for example you can use a card to increase the Area of Effect of the spell to 4m there are no cards to increase more or less, you are stuck with that distance always, same for pretty much all other cards you can use to "make" a spell...
Legend of Dragoon doesn't even has spell making, does it? I played it in my PSX back in the day and while I never beat it I don't remember any spell making in it at all, IIRC the characters had Dragoon Spells but those were not customizable and only could be cast while in Dragoon form.
Are you comparing this:
and this:
to this:
Arx Fatalis was a great little game, I still love it but while the spellcasting was interesting, it sucked in practical terms, you had to press control and then while keeping it pressed you would have to draw the runes with the mouse, while it was interesting it wasn't much of a real RPG feature because it required player's skill and not the character's skill. I could never make the runes properly while under attack or while moving, I could only use magic while hiding from enemies, in a place they couldn't reach me or while by myself. Many runes required that the mouse movements be very precise and that was a pain in the ass to perform, also if a spell required more than one rune it would take quite a while to draw them while the enemies were hitting you. Also Arx Fatalis was also released after Morrowind...
It's really crazy when I think about it what morrowind allowed you to do, as far as the game mechanics goes, it's not just the spell crafting I mean also with potions and magic effects on items. It really allowed you to create some powerfull characters.
First person games similar to Morrowind exist for a very long time in gaming, and they always had a strong fanbase. Infact some of the earliest RPGs have been done in First Person.
Yes, we all can see Morrowinds flaws, it's not that anyone here disagrees with you. But you know, if I had to chose between a game like Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and 4 I would chose the approach of Morrowind because of the ton of debth and freedom it gave you as a player, it didn't treat you like a mongoloid. In other words it's mediocre combat vs. mediocre combat with debth. Morrowind was in some parts an improvement over previous Elder Scroll games, and if they kept improving it, they might have actually a really good combat system by now. But Bethesda chose the easy route of making their games into full first person shooters and simplyfing everything so much, that you really have to be close to a retard to fail the game.
That way you're really loosing a lot of diversity in gaming and game mechanics, beacuse at the end every shooter starts to feel the same, every action RPG starts to feel the same, and more and more games start to feel the same. I mean take games Assasins Creed for example, or the fighting system from the Batman games. The whole genre has like ... no diversity when it comes to the game mechanics.
All I am saying is that you have to make a difference between bad mechanics and your own preference in other words personal taste.
First person games similar to Morrowind exist for a very long time in gaming, and they always had a strong fanbase. Infact some of the earliest RPGs have been done in First Person.
I can only speak for my self here, so I will say this.
Yes, we all can see Morrowinds flaws, it's not that anyone here disagrees with you. But you know, if I had to chose between a game like Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and 4 I would chose the approach of Morrowind because of the ton of debth and freedom it gave you as a player, it didn't treat you like a mongoloid. In other words it's mediocre combat vs. mediocre combat with debth. Morrowind was in some parts an improvement over previous Elder Scroll games, and if they kept improving it, they might have actually a really good combat system by now. But Bethesda chose the easy route of making their games into full first person shooters and simplyfing everything so much, that you really have to be close to a retard to fail the game.
That way you're really loosing a lot of diversity in gaming and game mechanics, beacuse at the end every shooter starts to feel the same, every action RPG starts to feel the same, and more and more games start to feel the same. I mean take games Assasins Creed for example, or the fighting system from the Batman games. The whole genre has like ... no diversity when it comes to the game mechanics.
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Kohno
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
The nu-Fallouts would've all been better if they had more Morrowind in them than they do. More skills, more RNG like a proper RPG should have, less minigames and hard gating, less conventional FPS'ing...
New Vegas would've been in a different realm already (even if not matching ISO/TB) if all combat was like this:
New Vegas would've been in a different realm already (even if not matching ISO/TB) if all combat was like this:
One thing that I would change is the damage mechanics, instead of doing less damage, weapons in bad condition and with low skills should simply fail more often and be less accurate in the hands of the player, not unlike what Deus Ex did with some of the weapons where aiming and reloading takes a considerable amount of time if the player had low skills with it.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I actually loathe Morrowind's combat, so i'm glad New Vegas doesn't work like that.
BigGuyCIA
Yer fond of me Lobster!
Morrowind's combat was abrupt since it took a second for the player to realize there were dice rolls involved - even if you were smacking a rat 1 foot away. Once you got over that the game was fairly easy to get a hang of and based on how you built your character it was really straight forward.
I completely agree. They should remove any damage traits and keep that localized to the gun itself. Magnum .44 will ALWAYS do X amount of damage regardless of your skill level. The only modifiers would be the kind of bullets you use.
I completely agree. They should remove any damage traits and keep that localized to the gun itself. Magnum .44 will ALWAYS do X amount of damage regardless of your skill level. The only modifiers would be the kind of bullets you use.
Norzan
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Yeah, it never made much sense to me for a gun to do less damage the worst condition is at. It makes sense with swords and other melee weapons because their edges are getting duller or it's starting to rust.
While bullets themselves will deal the same damage because it's the gun itself that is getting worse and not the bullets.
While bullets themselves will deal the same damage because it's the gun itself that is getting worse and not the bullets.
To be honest, if the barrel gets damaged or bent the bullets will not achieve the maximum speed and rotation and so they will deal less damage to the target, if the sights are not calibrated properly you will not hit the vital spots you're aiming at and deal less damage to an enemy, if the chamber is cracked the explosion to make the bullet go will lose some energy and propulsion it slower (probably will explode too, but since that doesn't happen in the game...) etc.
Same goes for energy weapons, if the mirrors/crystals are cracked, scratched or out of position then it will not produce an effective laser beam I guess, if the connecting wires are not in top shape it will not allow the flow of energy to be as effective, etc.
It's still totally stupid that a target takes 30 or 40 head shots while 10 with a perfect weapon or something. There are better ways to solve that. For example, weapons can jam more often, reload animations could take much longer with low skills, aiming could be a lot more difficult. See Deus Ex 1, which had a decent combat mechanic with weapons, particularly heavy ones. You had to invest quite a lot of experience points in the use of heavy weapons to make them really usefull, as it allowed you to move faster and aim faster with them.