F3C - Fixing the Main Quest, a Discussion

Here some ideas about factions.

1:Factions

Brotherhood Of Steel In DC:

Now, having BoS in DC makes little sense to begin with, as their resources were already limited in Fallout 2, they just dont have the ability to cross wasteland. So we have the option remove them from DC.

However, if we want to keep them, we would have to change them, if we want them to be believable.

Example:
The ones who would be send, would most likely be hard-core BoS fanatics, "elite" to make sure they havent wasted precious manpower and technology sending them to DC, no nice guys ala lyons. Also, a CLEAR reason is needed, maybe a top-secret military base with high-end pre-war tech. Or a nuke so they could destroy/win NCR, because the NCR is threatening their monopoly and aquiring of technology and even their sovereignity. They arent nice guys, all they care about is preservation of technology, and themselves. They would kill outsider to get to the tech, or the nuke, if it was very important for their survival. Entire town sized hub ? you bet they would.

Enclave in DC:
They manage to make even less sense currently than BoS, as their main force was supposed to be destroyed in Oil rig. Navarro was just an repair/refuel outpost, and vertibirds had short range, so flying to Dc would be unlikely.And their personelle wouldnt really be numerous enough to safely make a trek like that to DC. First Option is to remove them out., making EDEN just a lonely super computer spouting empty propaganda based on old commands given by the enclave president before events of Fallout 2.

If we want to keep them too, we need to change them too.

Example, nothing serious:
EDEN managed to keep Autumn in check for a while, but soon Autumn took control, and uses EDEN as a front, and HE is de-facto leader of enclave. He would use enclave for his personal agenda, and hunger for power and might. (making the player choose between two evils, a BoS which only wants technology,and is willing to cause deaths of many, for its own dubious purposes or enclave that wants to rule, without any opposition, but not to kill the wastelanders. Pc has to decide which one he sides with :twisted: )
The current enclave would have been from secondary base , a one formed in mid-west ( to aquire some materials, and to recover a emergency goverment "stash" of fusion cells and other equipment), few years before the chosen one blew up the oil rig(even though they really werent supposed to have more bases, but makes more sense than coming all the way from navarro).

So the point of this extra long post is, that we would have to make more factions or just modify old ones. Also quest would need to be changed, as mentioned earlier by others.

Also expansion of settlements, or new settlements would be required, as it seems ludicrous to have just a junktown sized town in DC, an area that would be bound to have vaults. More important locations and more trading.

Saving the main quest requires the saving or creation of new ones.
here is one for megaton:
-----------------------------------
Talon Company & Tenpenny:


Example:
Tenpenny could be a man, who is in reality is from a Vault, and has learned his wanky accent there, but claims to be from Britain. He is old, but he still has a lust for power (who wouldnt ? ). He controls large part of the low-tech firearm and meds production in DC , and has made a fortune. Now he wants to have more, and starts to try and force megaton to join his economic "rule", as they are producing non-tenpenny firearms, in effect hurting his business by lowering prices(is he gizmo ?), and one of the most important citizens resisting him is Lucas Simms. He cant send his cronies to take the sheriff out, and he has sent burke to town to try and settle things diplomatically, but Burke sees the PC, and decides that even if he/she gets caught, no one could really prove anything, and hires him/her to kill simms (does this OUTSIDE the town). However, first he of course tests the PC, to find what he is made of, and sends him or her, to steal something from a towns person during the night(the gunsmith perhaps, his blueprints/tools ?) for some caps. Then he decides to have a final test if she/he is capable of killing, and sends the PC to kill a unlucky scavenger/homeless person for no reason, the reward being money and stimpacks. once completed, Burke gives the Pc the task of killing simms way he/she wants to. Now PC can kill simms by several diffrent means.
1.Kill simms directly,inside town, in broad daylight causing the town to hate him/her.
2. wait for cover of darkness, and then kill him while he heads back to home on an alley., making townsfolk suspicious of him/her (a new person comes to town and suddenly sheriff dies violently), but not hatefull.
3.Convince that you saw man fitting description of Burke near town, with a few armed men with him, talking about attacking the town. Promise to help him kill the non-existant men,kill simms, make a fake wound, and then go and lie that you ran into a bunch of armed men, possibly raiders, and they killed him, and wounded you.Speach skill 40/50 Cha 6+( some townsfolk are suspicious, but cannot prove anything, and most belive you, as you can convince people easily, thanks to you charismatic persona)
4.poison him, with a chemical compound the PC can cook up, then poison his food, or beer. science skill 35/40 required, int 6/7+. (No one knows how exactly he died or why, but people suspect Moira, or a unknown disease. Pc can also frame moira, who then will be inprisoned and lynched by angry townpeople. (They burn Simms body, in effect ruining any chances anyone could find out what really happened, in the fear that what ever he got was infectious.)

After delivering good news to Tenpenny & comp, he would then give him apartment in tenpenny towers, and give him more quests

Tenpenny would now give him quest to meet a representative of talon mercs with Burke, and hire Talon mercs to his service. (talon mercs consider PC friendly if PC accepts) and things go on from there. Tenpenny now can utilize his economic power, and now also has the hired guns to do that.

Possibly in the games ending Tenpenny starts expanding his power, with the help of talon mercs, taking over megaton easily without violence (by threatening them with mercs), and takes over vault 101 with force, utilizing the technology inside to further strengthen his town.However, if vault 101 is not taken , the new town that has the residents of tenpenny towers AND megaton, will not grow to have much power, but will still be prosperous. After Tenpenny dies, Burke takes over. The new town becomes growing, properous settlement, that will not have great signifigance. ( due to the business nature of Tenpenny and having the tech from vault 101 ) that has mildly authoritian rule, and a strong force of soldiers at its disposal. The town will become a powerfull state, that joins the enclaves rule under autumn or becomes a stand alone power, that has a say in how smaller towns live.

There is also sub-plot that involves the player finding Burkes journal, that reveals that he is planning to kill tenpenny, so he can take over, and it also shows that he has been stealing money from him. Pc can take the journal and take it to tenpenny, who will give the order to kill Burke,as he fears that he might kill him. The reward will be some of the stolen money that the Pc finds in Burkes persona.
The killing of burke will make the talons take over, and make the town military dictatorship, in effect stagnating the economy, and leading to its demise and disapperance, regardless of the side the player takes.
(PC can effect the ending by not telling where he came, or telling it to either tenpenny or burke, saving or dooming the vault, and siding with BoS or Enclave.)

Misc: In this version Nuke-In-the-Puddle is nothing but an old shell, that has had most of its components taken long ago, and is damaged beyond repair. Megaton name comes from Megaton brand of cigarettes,that had its main office in DC. This comes clear as the PC remembers that he/she saw an old pre-war commercial inside the vault 101, called "smoke Megaton, the brand with the most yield!". Also there are old cigarette (empty) cases, with the brand of "megaton" on them, in Simms's house. Simms doesnt know about vault 101, but he remembers seeing an middle aged man fitting the description of PCs dad pass by, but he left some time ago.( Farms would have to be added to Megaton and few npcs.) The blacksmith used to wrok for tenpenny, and will give the location off the ghouls
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
What's all this bomb talk? wasn't this about saving the main plot from it's horrible official one?

I think leave Megaton and Tenpenny as they are, they are really good stories, but should remain sidequests that have little or no bearing on the main plot. like in the old Fallouts, there was the main plot and tons of little story based quests that took you everywhere. It's those kind of things that make the Fallout universe really.

Just my opinion here, but why fix what isn't broken? leave the cool quests alone and lets rectify the stinker (main plot) - I mean am I the only one who went, "Why are they hitting me, can I kill them?" at the beginning of FO3 when the vault turn on you. That kinda stuff ruined this game. I'm glad I played on, cos outside the main plot - WOW! Awesome game! But the made plot started weird and got worse as it went on.

BTW the A Bomb thing, think 1950s? were A Bombs that advanced for the weird named one you chaps were talking about, I think not. As a chap earlier said, these were probably dropped from a plane - BOOM!
 
Well, having a working a bomb in a puddle after 200 years doesnt really make sense. In the context of previous games.
So that pretty much makes the side quests in megaton pointless.
And most of side quests make little sense, or are just fed-ex quest, or kill quests. They could use some work.

And if we want to put some nukes in to the game, it should be some kind of silo. They had missiles in Fallout world. Atleast if US got werner von braun after WWII. ANd the world is supposed to be in the year 2070+ when the nuclear war starts, and they had space programs in fallout world (atleast if we believe in van buren AND we take in account the fallout 3 having mentioned of one). SO they could have a silo. Which could be located in megaton. Which the factions could be fighting over. Makes more sense than having them wanting a useless water purification system. Even vaults had them. And if enclave is still evil "we-WANT-to-purge-USA" they sure would like to have 3-4 high power nukes. BoS could want one to take out NCR.
 
So basically one of the factions would be wanting that nuke pretty bad since it's quite the weapon, yet in the official Fallout 3 it's treated like a toy for the player's amusement and nobody wants that massive weapon of destruction AT ALL. The whole element of disarming and detonating the nuke just doesn't make sense in-light of the factions trying to control DC. Having a nuke on your side is your best bet.

Megaton would seem much better if it had an underground nuke that it could launch and thus be a little more practical that it would be able to defend itself from either faction. That way you could take the plot in a different direction and get rid of the whole let's disarm or blow up this nuke scenario. The cult also was pretty much a prop standing next to the bomb and is pretty much useless as is. They could be rewritten to be the controllers of this nuke and the main force of Megaton, able to get what they want via nuclear intimidation.

All sorts of alternative plots could take place involving Megaton's weapon...
 
I think if fallout 3 would be based 40-60 years after war, it would actually make sence. And adding some farms around major towns would be a good idea adding some realism. Also reduction of raiders number and making them less like cannibals would do. Another idea is to change "middle aged" stuff to a description, which would actualy made recognising players father possible.
 
Fix the main quest? Simple.

Add the option to join the Enclave after your reveal the Purifier code to the Enclave, so that instead of getting shot, Autumn gives you an offer you can't refuse.
 
Because discussing the re-creation of the entire mainquest is a bit tiring, I'm just going to address the beginning for now.

The first part of the game had potential. I think the concept of growing up in the vault should be kept. It should also, however, be a bit longer and less linear. Larger. More like a city and less like an apartment building. Elevators, common rooms, anything that a self-sufficient underground community would actually need. The player should be made to feel safe, to provide a contrast with the rest of the game, and with little conflict taking place. Quests that serve to develop your character and establish relationships. Basically, do away with the “any minute I'm going to be let out into the wasteland and that's all that matters” feeling. This kind of ruined the purpose of it all.

Then, the act of entering the wasteland should be executed differently. A radiation leak leading to forced evacuation, an earthquake, power failure. Something like that. No escaping from the overseer and killing security guards who you grew up with. Nothing that makes the player seem special. And preferably, the instant you enter the wasteland you should start experiencing the cruelty of it. You're not free-roaming yet. You have to prove you can survive.

Here's an example of an introduction scenario that I particularly like.

Outsiders make contact with Vault 101, and attempt to persuade them to open the door. There is a discrepancy about what decision to make, etc. Ultimately, the door is opened and the outsiders end up being slavers and everyone, including the main character, is captured and taken to Paradise Falls. You have to play a really short life-as-a-slave sort of thing (kind of like the original birthday party sequence in the game) before you have the opportunity to lead a slave uprising and regain your freedom. By then, most of your friends and family will have been killed (whether they died in the rebellion or as a result of other cruelties of the Wasteland) or sold into slavery. And now that you're alone, lost, and probably thirsty, a true post-apocalyptic story can begin.

In contrast, you never really experienced the harshness of the Fallout universe in the old introduction. You didn't have to prove yourself or your ability to survive. I think that's necessary to the beginning of Fallout 3 since it already holds your hand throughout the entire game. (Hopefully that will be fixed too, though.)

Edit for clarification: So in a nutshell my suggestion is to make the vault safer and more comfortable, and the introduction into the wasteland harsher.
 
Sericho said:
Because discussing the re-creation of the entire mainquest is a bit tiring, I'm just going to address the beginning for now.

The first part of the game had potential. I think the concept of growing up in the vault should be kept. It should also, however, be a bit longer and less linear. Larger. More like a city and less like an apartment building. Elevators, common rooms, anything that a self-sufficient underground community would actually need. The player should be made to feel safe, to provide a contrast with the rest of the game, and with little conflict taking place. Quests that serve to develop your character and establish relationships. Basically, do away with the “any minute I'm going to be let out into the wasteland and that's all that matters” feeling. This kind of ruined the purpose of it all.

Then, the act of entering the wasteland should be executed differently. A radiation leak leading to forced evacuation, an earthquake, power failure. Something like that. No escaping from the overseer and killing security guards who you grew up with. Nothing that makes the player seem special. And preferably, the instant you enter the wasteland you should start experiencing the cruelty of it. You're not free-roaming yet. You have to prove you can survive.

Here's an example of an introduction scenario that I particularly like.

Outsiders make contact with Vault 101, and attempt to persuade them to open the door. There is a discrepancy about what decision to make, etc. Ultimately, the door is opened and the outsiders end up being slavers and everyone, including the main character, is captured and taken to Paradise Falls. You have to play a really short life-as-a-slave sort of thing (kind of like the original birthday party sequence in the game) before you have the opportunity to lead a slave uprising and regain your freedom. By then, most of your friends and family will have been killed (whether they died in the rebellion or as a result of other cruelties of the Wasteland) or sold into slavery. And now that you're alone, lost, and probably thirsty, a true post-apocalyptic story can begin.

In contrast, you never really experienced the harshness of the Fallout universe in the old introduction. You didn't have to prove yourself or your ability to survive. I think that's necessary to the beginning of Fallout 3 since it already holds your hand throughout the entire game. (Hopefully that will be fixed too, though.)
Click to expand...

Leaving the Comforts of Home is an important theme through the Fallout series, be it from the vault or your village and the harshness of the wasteland is introduced strictly because of the contrast between growing up in a nice, tidy vault and being outside where all the shit is going down.

I think the Fallout 3 opening sequences set this up fairly well, actually, though growing up could be expanded to make you care about the characters more. I think having to escape and kill off people you grew up with and became attached to in order to save yourself is enough "proof" that you can survive... though i must admit I would appreciate a nonviolent way to clear the area without stealth ("Aw gee, Officer, cantcha let me off the hook fer old times sake?")

So my point is that the going from small, safe haven to huge, dangerous wasteland is important and being forced out in a bloody coup is one decision where bethesda really had the ball in the air.

I also think that when we are considering how to fix the main quest we focus more on the real problem areas (namely, the third act) and patch up niggling loose ends of existing quests instead of trying to revamp the entire game unless there is a really strong writer at its core. There's always the danger that a storyline written by obsessive fans such as ourselves will come off as, well, written by obsessive fans (And I admit, I'm guilty of this with my suggestions as well)
 
Quick Suggestion:

Amata could be you first companion out of the vault, depending on how you escaped(if you kill her father, no way) and you can take her to megaton(potentially marrying here afterwards),take her to tenpenny tower(marriage possible too), kill her, sell her to slavers , take her as a companion(marriage possible), rape :twisted: , find her a boyfriend/fiancée/whatever, save her from slavers. Could change megaton to rivet city as it is a static place
 
I should have clarified; my previous post was assuming that we were going to re-create the story. I certainly agree that if that's not happening, the later branches should have priority of being "fixed".
 
Sericho said:
Because discussing the re-creation of the entire mainquest is a bit tiring, I'm just going to address the beginning for now.

The first part of the game had potential. I think the concept of growing up in the vault should be kept. It should also, however, be a bit longer and less linear. Larger. More like a city and less like an apartment building. Elevators, common rooms, anything that a self-sufficient underground community would actually need. The player should be made to feel safe, to provide a contrast with the rest of the game, and with little conflict taking place. Quests that serve to develop your character and establish relationships. Basically, do away with the “any minute I'm going to be let out into the wasteland and that's all that matters” feeling. This kind of ruined the purpose of it all.

Then, the act of entering the wasteland should be executed differently. A radiation leak leading to forced evacuation, an earthquake, power failure. Something like that. No escaping from the overseer and killing security guards who you grew up with. Nothing that makes the player seem special. And preferably, the instant you enter the wasteland you should start experiencing the cruelty of it. You're not free-roaming yet. You have to prove you can survive.

Here's an example of an introduction scenario that I particularly like.

Outsiders make contact with Vault 101, and attempt to persuade them to open the door. There is a discrepancy about what decision to make, etc. Ultimately, the door is opened and the outsiders end up being slavers and everyone, including the main character, is captured and taken to Paradise Falls. You have to play a really short life-as-a-slave sort of thing (kind of like the original birthday party sequence in the game) before you have the opportunity to lead a slave uprising and regain your freedom. By then, most of your friends and family will have been killed (whether they died in the rebellion or as a result of other cruelties of the Wasteland) or sold into slavery. And now that you're alone, lost, and probably thirsty, a true post-apocalyptic story can begin.

In contrast, you never really experienced the harshness of the Fallout universe in the old introduction. You didn't have to prove yourself or your ability to survive. I think that's necessary to the beginning of Fallout 3 since it already holds your hand throughout the entire game. (Hopefully that will be fixed too, though.)
Click to expand...

i really like the idea of downplaying the player as someone extraordinary-- just make him/her another shmuck trying to survive, leaving them to differentiate themselves through their actions AFTER the fact.

it might be too much for a mod, but in my perspective for a fallout story i'd shift the roles a little bit.

as former vault dwellers we've explored all these vaults and found out about all sorts of sick experiments that were conducted there, but perhaps it's time we played as the *subject* of one of these experiments.

YOU actually get to wander around the vault, noticing everybody slowly go batshit insane or drop dead due to whatever experiment is going on there. the tutorial has you wandering around searching for clues behind the truth as to what's going on and ultimately you end up having to break out of the vault (or supplanting the overseer and continuing the experiments yourself, ha ha).
 
Basicly this thread going nowhere
so like i write before here first of would be nice to agree on 1 of 3 options
1. Completely new plot
2. New starting location with new plot but not touching old one
3. Upgrade old plot
 
mrowa said:
Basicly this thread going nowhere
so like i write before here first of would be nice to agree on 1 of 3 options
1. Completely new plot
2. New starting location with new plot but not touching old one
3. Upgrade old plot
Click to expand...


I think most people have opted to fix the plot although in large(and varied) ways.



Personally I'd like to fix the plot, but I think that some major underlying concepts need to be fixed, then a revised plot line could be built on the fixed structure.

1. Faction standings - your actions should be influencing how each faction views and treats you.

2. Karma Removed - Good and Bad are too convoluted in the game. Faction standing would take karma's place.

3. Jobs - Ongoing professions that can help offer additional plot branches.

4. Area control - The entire map(and dungeons) would be divided into small areas which different factions could control. (Think of the turf battles in GTA:SA)

5. No Invincible people - All major and minor characters can die


With these changes it might even be possible to have the player start off in any of the factions, not just as a vault-dweller.




As for the basic current plot, it jumps the shark once you find your dad. I think that most people seem to agree on that.
 
I think all of those are great idea except for turf wars. That's a bit too... STALKER. Plus I feel that throwing in a constant metaquest can obscure the linear plot.

And karma should be on a settlement-by-settlement basis instead of factions. I think a lot of people are placing to much emphasis on factions when that's never really been Fallout's style. Having New Reno-style conflicting quests is about as far as I think it should go.
 
Well the turf wars actually would solve another issue: Travel!

Fast travel random encounters would be less random and make more sense, not to mention that fast travel through friendly areas would be free of negative encounters.

I'd like to see the 'factions' concept put into use because it could be very powerful in changing what is made available to you at any time. Factions don't have to be political or race based. Being on good terms with megaton should have some effect on how Rivet City views you. Stealing from a Trader should effect how all the traders (human, mutant, etc.) view you. After all they all talk and so word gets around.
Maybe Karma doesn't need to go away, but it does need some tweaking and some additions. Several of the game's Karma rewards seem to be misplaced such as Tenpenny Towers.
 
FrankManic said:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=618041#618041

Oh look, someone left this neat horn here. Toot toot.
Click to expand...

I really really liked the backstory you set up and the general themes. Your idea for Vault 76 is particularly clever.

However once you got into the actual "game" I had a few problems. Namely that the player had a specific history (especially as a technician, which kind of makes no sense if the player decides to not play with technician skills and with an Intelligence of 2) And I think the impetus for the player character is weak. Or maybe too strong? When I think of Fallout I think of picking up pieces of information about the world here and there as I go along, here you've splayed it all out at the beginning willy nilly. What you wrote seems more like the start of a Half Life or something. It also carries the problem of attempting to give the player moral ambiguity between the two sides, but right from the start of it seems to be communicating to the player that the Enclave are jerks and the bad guys.
 
FrankManic said:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=618041#618041

Oh look, someone left this neat horn here. Toot toot.
Click to expand...

Uff that was a long story
Anyways i really liked it and while its shows many of fallout 1/2 aspects making only 2 strong fractions vanishes the fallout idea wher ther are lots of numerous fractions from with player can choose to help or not and ther so only thing is to add more dominant forces like brotherhood and maybe something like NCR or Vault City which are maybe not as strong like other ones they can defend from them in a way that make dominate fraction not attack openly or hardy in any other way. Besides enclava could have ghouls in thier army as a side effect of some of thier experiments with FEV. Party shouldnt have some old home made weapons i know this should look like suprise attacks fractions but looking on it from time way some Reds which are part of Party and are ghouls are very old compeer to human life span so this would be logical if they would have pre-war scientisc which would bring us to the part wher they can refine enclava weapons and remake some of them or make some similar not as good but still usable.

As for Dweller life i agree with bhlaab. But only thing that i would change ther is a status from technican to normal vault dweller without any job connections or makes a start similar to the vanila game and player would just pick thier stats and skills and based on them would have his job :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top