Fallout 3 Is Better Than You Think - Many A True Nerd

[NMLevesque]

People are seriously claiming that you can't walk into areas and get destroyed by unexpectedly powerful foes? Really? I've played through it dozens of times. There are definitely places I avoid until I'm reasonably leveled, because I would just die. Sometimes it's because of how many enemies are there, such as Evergreen Mills. Mostly it's because I can maybe take one of their hits before dying.

 

[Jabberwok]

People are seriously claiming that you can't walk into areas and get destroyed by unexpectedly powerful foes? Really? I've played through it dozens of times. There are definitely places I avoid until I'm reasonably leveled, because I would just die. Sometimes it's because of how many enemies are there, such as Evergreen Mills. Mostly it's because I can maybe take one of their hits before dying.

Yeah, hmm, I remember some enemies being more difficult than others, of course. Maybe the problem is just that they are kind of still the same enemies? I mean Evergreen Mills is mostly just raiders (and one behemoth, the wiki says). There are raiders all over the game. There are super mutants all over the game, too. Maybe some are high level some are low level? How different do they look from each other?

I mean, play Fallout 1 or 2, and stumble into an area full of super mutants (that you wouldn't normally encounter until the end of the game) or the Enclave in 2, and you will get wrecked, but it won't be unexpected. You know a high level enemy by looking at them. After one playthrough of Fallout, it's pretty easy to assess whether I should run from a random encounter just by looking at the enemies on screen. What type of enemy is it? Are they wearing armor? Are they carrying rifles? How many? In Fallout 3 (and many other games, Bethesda's not the only offender here), I might need to take a few shots at them first and see how much their health drops before I would have any idea whether it was a fight I should take on.

Oblivion was one of the worst offenders I can think of. My character was powerful enough to kill the second-to-last boss in one hit. Hours later, a cave full of trash goblins near the start of the game were the toughest enemies in all of Tamriel.

 

[Norzan]

People are seriously claiming that you can't walk into areas and get destroyed by unexpectedly powerful foes? Really? I've played through it dozens of times. There are definitely places I avoid until I'm reasonably leveled, because I would just die. Sometimes it's because of how many enemies are there, such as Evergreen Mills. Mostly it's because I can maybe take one of their hits before dying.

Yes, because i've done a few playthroughs of the game and never once i ran into a roablock. Something that forced me to come back later. I pretty much explored the entire game at my leisure and very few times did any enemy felt like a threat. That's because enemies scale to your level and this was on the harder difficulties.

Enemies in midgame and onward don't really become threats, they become bullet sponges.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Those are not "minor differences"

Indeed.

 

[Jogre]

To me Fallout 3 actually kind of fails in exploration. One of the things that needs to come with exploration to me is the looming presence of danger and i mean actual danger, like powerful enemies that you can run into that can wreck your shit in early level or even later levels. There's hardly any of that in Fallout 3 because nearly everything scales to your level.

This point was more meant to praise the map design of Fallout 3. While the actual content of exploration can be lackluster, Manyatruenerd raised valid points about how the game encourages you to find your own route.

Either people are super anal about what an RPG is or lore blah blah but I think its a rather fun time even with its faults. Certainly not a master piece but not the turd people make it out to be. Certainly more re play value than fucking Skyrim that for sure.

I think Fallout 3 is a good enough game, and in terms of RPGs it's probably one of the better ones.

The problem I have with it is that it's not really good as a Fallout game.

Fallout 1 and 2 often felt more like they were designed as worlds than they were designed for the player. If you go west from the starting area, you would immediately find Mariposa. Mariposa doesn't change locations just because the player isn't ready yet. Similarly if you said the wrong thing, you pissed off the wrong people, the world didn't make exceptions just to give players the second chance.

And it worked. I remember first time I met Big Jesus Mordino in Fallout 2. There's such a build up to him first speaking that you are constantly panicking, hoping you don't step out of line, and you had legitimate reason to fear this, the game didn't pull punches, and there's no reason why this casino filled with mobsters wouldn't turn on you if you insulted him.

Fallout 3 by contrast feels too perfectly designed for the player. There's a town blocking your path and you need to either negotiate your way in or do a quest for them, certain areas are locked off until you are higher level, certain NPCs can't be killed because they are necessary for the plot, you can't piss of this or that town because they are one of two major towns in the games. All of it is just such a railroaded experience.

Plus, I think a sequel should be able to expand the source material. Fallout 3 didn't really add anything interesting to the Fallout Universe IMO. It's just the same villains as last time, with the same good guy faction as last time, with the Capital Wasteland being yet another Raider/Mutant infested hellhole. Nothing unique about it.

 

[Daniel The NCR Veteran]

Plus, I think a sequel should be able to expand the source material. Fallout 3 didn't really add anything interesting to the Fallout Universe IMO. It's just the same villains as last time, with the same good guy faction as last time, with the Capital Wasteland being yet another Raider/Mutant infested hellhole. Nothing unique about it.

It's what I always complain about regarding Fallout 3. The story's linear, limited and there's no room for choice at all. I HATE the Enclave in Fallout 3, I don't even know why they were still a thing after the events of Fallout 2 where The Chosen One (and the NCR just after) kicked their fucking ass. Maybe it's because they're way too far from the West but the way they handled them is ridicolous. Despite the fact that they want the world to be pure as them, they're the most inhuman faction out there. Like they have NO HUMANITY served for them. None of them have different thoughts or doubt the way of their leaders. The ones you could talk to were absolute assholes or just so uninteresting, boring and brainwashed (in the bad way, can't even convince them out of it) that it would of served better just to fucking kill them (as it is the theme of Fallout 3, shoot. shoot. and shoot.).
Some of the best and memorable characters in the Fallout Universe come from the Fallout 2's Enclave: Sergeant Dornan, the guy you speak with through the feed at the Oil Rig and Frank Horrigan. That might be three (that I can remember off the top of my head) but it's better than Fallout 3 where there's none. Fallout NV also has the Enclave Remnants, probably my favourite group of people from the Enclave that ever existed in the Fallout Universe. Arcade Gannon, is in fact, my favourite human companion in Fallout NV since I love his personality, his background story and his companion quest. He truly feels human (even though he's born late, it doesn't matter. The people before him that SERVED in the Enclave were just like him; human and actually interesting).
Fallout 3's Enclave is just one out of many things that Bethesda took from Fallout's lore and ruined it with their bullshit. They should of just sticked to the Railroad and the Institute since that's atleast something originally created by them, not Obsidian.

 

[NMLevesque]

There are super mutants all over the game, too. Maybe some are high level some are low level? How different do they look from each other?

Different enough to recognize distinct types. Generic, brute, master, overlord, behemoth. The last two are especially obvious.

I mean, play Fallout 1 or 2, and stumble into an area full of super mutants (that you wouldn't normally encounter until the end of the game) or the Enclave in 2, and you will get wrecked, but it won't be unexpected.

I would note that you can always save scum to avoid them and go anywhere whenever you want right from the start.

Yes, because i've done a few playthroughs of the game and never once i ran into a roablock. Something that forced me to come back later.

Then you clearly never explored these places right off the bat: Deathclaw Sanctuary, Old Olney, Fort Bannister, Takoma Park, etc. You are not believable.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Looking for minor strenghts of Fallout 3 is pointless, it's like finding a gold nugget in a sea of shit.

...and just when you think you've found one —it's corn.

_______

I actually enjoyed FO3 in two specific ways. I enjoyed walking the wastelands alone. When it interrupts you (with dialog or combat), it always puts its foot in its mouth, and ruins the experience. But as other than that, it did a superb job of vignetting bits & pieces of the Fallout world; locations that look just as one might have imagined when first playing the original.

The second way I enjoyed the game was Machinema/modding with the game assets.

(I believe that I own three retail copies of FO3. )

 

[Daniel The NCR Veteran]

I would note that you can always save scum to avoid them and go anywhere whenever you want right from the start.

Fallout 3 is the guilty of the same thing but worse... SAVE SCUMMING IN DIALOGUE! Who thinks that is a great fucking idea?

 

[Black Angel]

Different enough to recognize distinct types. Generic, brute, master, overlord, behemoth. The last two are especially obvious.

And here is the problem. Aside from behemoths, which is most of the time hand-placed as special encounters or or just specific areas, the different types of super mutants appear based on your character's level. This is the thing that happened to me immediately upon visiting the Capital Wasteland using my high-leveled character from New Vegas by way of TTW mod. Nearly every super mutants I encounter at that point were overlords. Hell, I go to Big Town and do the quest for them, and the super mutants that came to attack the town were bloody overlords. That's just from TTW, now imagine playing on Fallout 3 alone, without the DT system. Hence why the claim that you can practically visit anywhere without getting your ass handed to you properly because many of the enemies scale to your level. So, like Norzan said, there's really no roadblock at all, and playing at higher levels became such a chore since enemies become bullet sponges.

I would note that you can always save scum to avoid them and go anywhere whenever you want right from the start.

You can also savescum until you beat these encounters in Fallout 3 you thought you can't handle the first time, or sneak past them.

Then you clearly never explored these places right off the bat: Deathclaw Sanctuary, Old Olney, Fort Bannister, Takoma Park, etc. You are not believable.

Well, deathclaws are deathclaws. Now, Fort Bannister, a bunch of Talon Company mercs? What's difficult about them? Takoma Park, bunch of super mutants and occasional Talon Company mercs. Unless you go there at higher levels and encounter higher level super mutants (and overlords), super mutants are nothing in Fallout 3 compared to their counterpart in Fallout 1&2.

Now, I really wouldn't say someone being unable to handle encounters in Fallout 3 and New Vegas because they can't master the system, it's just that the system is so broken that it somehow gives an illusion of difficulty. The combat gameplay mechanics of Gamebryo engine are shit, the engine itself IS shit. New Vegas improved upon Fallout 3 simply by adding DT and a properly working ironsights, and even then it's still shitty shooting mechanic.

 

[Daniel The NCR Veteran]

Well, deathclaws are deathclaws.

They still can be beaten easily with a gattling laser in 3. Old Olney was super ez the first time I went through. I seriously shit my pants when I meet a Deathclaw in NV but in 3 they somehow managed to make them not so threatening. After playing NV for the first time, I knew Deathclaws were serious shit. But when I played 3 after NV, I was like "oh shit" when I saw that Deathclaw near the Library but that immedieately stopped when I could kill it so easily... The other areas our buddy NMLevesque talked about were the same as any other area, fucking easy.

 

[Jabberwok]

I would note that you can always save scum to avoid them and go anywhere whenever you want right from the start.

Sure, you can. I don't really see how that's at all relevant to this comparison.

I'm not talking about whether it is literally possible to go to an area or not. I'm talking about whether that area feels different than the rest of the game. Fallout 3's wasteland has some initial charm, but it is largely a big ball of indistinguishable mud, with very similar raiders and super mutants scattered throughout. That is boring.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Fallout 3 spam Deathclaws with broken legs just for the player to have something cool to kill.

I can not find a reference for these guys, but they do exist. I killed one with a 10mm pistol once.

edit: this deserves more emphasis

I KILLED A ADULT DEATHCLAW WITH A 10MM PISTOL.

 

[Black Angel]

Fallout 3 spam Deathclaws with broken legs just for the player to have something cool to kill.

Fuck, I just remembered now that Fallout 3's Deathclaws are just as much of pushovers as the rest of the game:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Dart_gun
I tried making one for the lulz, spamming it left and right and laughing at literally everything that's melee limping their way to me, and then I tried using at a Deathclaw for more lulz and it's literally impossible to be beaten by Deathclaws at this point.

Now, to be fair to the general discussion at hand, crafting this and the Railway Rifle was actually part of the initial charm of the game to me.

 

[Daniel The NCR Veteran]

If they put in more work into Fallout 3's dialogue and story as much as they put work into the Junk Launcher then maybe it could of been a better game.

 

[NMLevesque]

Fallout 3 is the guilty of the same thing but worse... SAVE SCUMMING IN DIALOGUE! Who thinks that is a great fucking idea?

That was kind of the point I was making. They both did it. Not sure why so many people misunderstood that.

Hence why the claim that you can practically visit anywhere without getting your ass handed to you properly because many of the enemies scale to your level. So, like Norzan said, there's really no roadblock at all, and playing at higher levels became such a chore since enemies become bullet sponges.

Well, deathclaws are deathclaws.

Moving goalposts. Moving on.

Now, Fort Bannister, a bunch of Talon Company mercs? What's difficult about them?

There's a lot of them. They have armor and weapons that aren't crap. There is at least one sentrybot and merc with a missile launcher, in addition to some turrets. Even just the 3 with one sentrybot and a turret on the easiest route to Rivet City are too much at the very beginning. I should know, because that's what I did literally every run.

Sure, you can. I don't really see how that's at all relevant to this comparison.

I'm not talking about whether it is literally possible to go to an area or not. I'm talking about whether that area feels different than the rest of the game. Fallout 3's wasteland has some initial charm, but it is largely a big ball of indistinguishable mud, with very similar raiders and super mutants scattered throughout. That is boring.

XD Whether it feels different? That's one hell of a goalpost shift.

I love how I didn't even have to say anything and people immediately brought up having to use the dart gun, a gatling laser, or a railway rifle even though there's no way to *start the game with them*. It also takes a while to get them, even if you wanted to save scum around with prior knowledge of exactly where to go while avoiding anything that grants exp. Why did I even bother replying. You all sunk the argument without my help.

 

[TheHouseAlwaysWins]

Fallout 3 is OK as an Elder Scrolls title but the reason why a lot of people especially on NMA dislike it is because it is so different to the game design of Fallout 1, Fallout 2, or even Fallout New Vegas. In the latter you are exploring and interacting with a real post apocalyptic world and are seeing how people would react to such a situation in it. A lot of the gameplay is spent exploring settlements and locations, doing quests, talking to NPC's, and in Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, solving puzzles. Falllout 3's design is way different to the point where most people on NMA see it as a downgrade of the original formula. Instead of shaping an actual post apocalyptic world that you can explore and interact you are spending most of the gameplay pressing the W key and shooting at mutated creatures with most of the locations having little to no relevancy to the larger world as a whole in it.

In Fallout 3 there are tons of buildings like the Dunwich building which might have a decent story or gameplay idea there, but a lot of these buildings are essentially just filler as they don't usually connect to anything else at all. In New Vegas, the majority of locations are usually tied to an important quest and even a seemingly abandoned building like that location where you get a robot tour guide has relevance to the world because it turns out it was an aerospace HQ that was bought by Mr House which shows how much power he had in the Old World and his interest in space technology. It also ties into a later part of the main quest where you have to recover a holotape from a dead paladin for the Brotherhood of Steel later on for in it. There is some filler in Fallout New Vegas but it's a lot less compared to the kind of filler you saw in Fallout 3 in it.

 

[Big No]

Fallout 3 is OK as an Elder Scrolls title but the reason why a lot of people especially on NMA dislike it is because it is so different to the game design of Fallout 1, Fallout 2, or even Fallout New Vegas. In the latter you are exploring and interacting with a real post apocalyptic world and are seeing how people would react to such a situation in it. A lot of the gameplay is spent exploring settlements and locations, doing quests, talking to NPC's, and in Fallout 1 and Fallout 2, solving puzzles. Falllout 3's design is way different to the point where most people on NMA see it as a downgrade of the original formula. Instead of shaping an actual post apocalyptic world that you can explore and interact you are spending most of the gameplay pressing the W key and shooting at mutated creatures with most of the locations having little to no relevancy to the larger world as a whole in it.

On a related note, the conditions when Fallout 3 was released tends to sting more than Fallout 4. Why? Well, before Fallout 3, there was a 20 year gap since a proper sequel was made. Van Buren looked like there would finally be a third installment but that ended up not happening. Thus the Fallout 3 we got from Bethesda tended to rub people the wrong way, they waited so long but instead ended up with this strange mish-mash of previous games' elements and towns that survive on one Brahmin yet thrive.

Fallout 4 on the other hand, while still hated, doesn't seem to be hated as much as F3 despite it's numerous flaws. Most likely because by this point we had New Vegas, a faithful sequel that added many new things to experience and think about. It may not be Van Buren, but it's honestly the next best thing. More importantly, it became clear that Bethesda's wacky gimmicks took precedence over a realistic world with interesting characters. Games that largely focus on "is there loot here" rather than "what's this location's story?" Thus standards for a Bethesda Fallout were not very high to begin with.

In short, F3 is hated badly because it left a sour taste in peoples' mouths after two decades of waiting and Fallout 4, despite worse in several aspects, was less hated because it was released when it was common knowledge that Bethesda is clumsy.

Personally, I feel this is one of the reasons people tend to say F3 is completely worthless even when they'll say F4 has a few interesting things in it. Saying F3 had something worthwhile in it would indicate that at least some of the wait was worth it, but due to the rest of the game's shortcomings it won't be accepted.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

• He falsely asserts that it makes no sense for Lanius to back down. It does. Lanius isn't backing down out of cowardice, or because you've changed his mind. He's backing down because he's an intelligent commander who is incredibly aware that Legion has limitations, and if you point him to the fact that Legion is unequipped as it stands to take on NCR(Which may I remind you requires 100 Speech, you literally need to be as good as you can possibly be at speaking to convince this guy to stand down), he backs down. A victory now resulting in a drawn out tactical failure down the line is antithetical to Lanius, a figure whose entire idea is being undefeatable. If he will inevitably be defeated down the line, that goes against what Lanius represents.

Yeah this part bugged me. It's very narrow-minded to view Lanius as this exclusively savage brute because he "fought like a maniac to the point of death" when he was a simple tribesman fighting the Legion. MATN is acting as if character-development cannot occur unless the player is witness to it. As if we needed to be along for the ride when Joshua Graham became a born-again Mormon.

Lanius is still a savage brute but his defeat at the hands of the Legion informed him that fighting lost causes is reckless and results in inevitable defeat (and/or death).

 

[Valdetiosi]

Just as far as I'm concerned a bit, how would you like that I create response video for MATN's video based upon the comments given here and bit of my own? The idea was to have point out what the nerd is right upon the spot and where he goes off the line and summarize up why Fallout 3 is really disliked other than "BETHESDA AND MUH JET LORE"