Fallout 3 is overrated
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Speaking favorably about something is advocating. They usually gush over the mod community. I could look up some quotes if you really want to see them.UncannyGarlic said:
There are mod tutorials as Per pointed out. Also, the company blog highlights certain mods and features interviews with modders. I know that they have a message board for modders, but I don’t know if the devs contribute much to that.UncannyGarlic said:
And I never claimed that they did provide support other than the mod tools anyway. I just said the mod community wouldn't be as robust without dev support.
entries on blogs are comments by dev which can not be seen as official support as this are personal oppinions by single devs, not in relation with the company.
And in the Bethesda forum there is almost no interaction between devs and the community may it be modders or usual "fans" and forum members which makes clear that one has to vary in the oppinion of developers and the position of the company. The situations might be that devs are pretty restricted in what they can say or do regarding forums. Well the Beth forum at least. But thats my oppinion anyway.
Tutorials are a nice and good thing which one could see as support and a good one even. But I would have been more happy about if they tried to listen to the modd comunity and fix finally some of the things they complain about since the release of Oblivion and now are even still present in Fallout 3.
By the way if you mean with more "robust" the endless "change the colour of your weapon/powerarmor" mods then I tend to differ about it. Without any offence, those things are mods but the value isnt in the same range as comparable to something that would for example include completly new weapons and armors with new models and advanced textures.
And in the Bethesda forum there is almost no interaction between devs and the community may it be modders or usual "fans" and forum members which makes clear that one has to vary in the oppinion of developers and the position of the company. The situations might be that devs are pretty restricted in what they can say or do regarding forums. Well the Beth forum at least. But thats my oppinion anyway.
Tutorials are a nice and good thing which one could see as support and a good one even. But I would have been more happy about if they tried to listen to the modd comunity and fix finally some of the things they complain about since the release of Oblivion and now are even still present in Fallout 3.
By the way if you mean with more "robust" the endless "change the colour of your weapon/powerarmor" mods then I tend to differ about it. Without any offence, those things are mods but the value isnt in the same range as comparable to something that would for example include completly new weapons and armors with new models and advanced textures.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Cool, so they do support the mod community, I'll be it poorly (~12 5-10 minute videos is really not even close to enough) but support is support.
well I have not seen the videos, so I can not say anything about its content or value. They might be of high quality, who knows.
But when I bought the Unreal 2004 DVD edition with special content, there was a DVD inside the case with more then 2 our tutorials of high quality for the map tools and I think unreal script. Quite a great support regarding the map community, which is understandable since UT gets as MP game much fun out of new exciting high quality maps.
When it comes to very good mod and community support I think EPIC really has it. One has to only see the Make Something Unreal Contest for example.
But when I bought the Unreal 2004 DVD edition with special content, there was a DVD inside the case with more then 2 our tutorials of high quality for the map tools and I think unreal script. Quite a great support regarding the map community, which is understandable since UT gets as MP game much fun out of new exciting high quality maps.
When it comes to very good mod and community support I think EPIC really has it. One has to only see the Make Something Unreal Contest for example.
I'm talking about the company blog. It's run by the community manager, who basically gets paid to do that sort of thing.Crni Vuk said:
I mean that it is a stronger community because of the mod tools. There are more mods and modders than there would be otherwise. It's a simple assumption.Crni Vuk said:
Crni Vuk said:
Pick on Bethesda all you want but the users have made several hundred new weapons, remixed and edited pretty much every armor, imported a lot of mod assets created for oblivion, put out 2 competing patches, a dozen re-balance mods, created new creatures, new radio stations (including a talk radio station hosted by a super mutant), new quests, new companions and new locations... and it has not even been 6 months yet.
It is already ignorant to act like all the people who got paid to make stuff for fallout 3 are incompetent, but pretending that all the mod makers are useless as well is the kind of eyes tightly shut bias that I keep nagging you guy's about, it bugs me to see people run out of things to complain about and start going after amateur 3d modelers, texture makers and coders. My advice? Pick a game you like, buy a copy and mail it to one of these people if you rather see them work on something you like, but don’t dismiss their talent.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Aren't you trying to have it both ways though? If the game was so spectacularly tight to begin with it wouldn't need all that terrific modding, would it?
Personally I wouldn't complain about F03 mods that are free and optional myself.
But then again I don't play Elder Scrolls games, so it's a moot point.
Personally I wouldn't complain about F03 mods that are free and optional myself.
But then again I don't play Elder Scrolls games, so it's a moot point.
Cimmerian Nights said:
A lot of mods are based on preference, like personally I wanted a radio station that played public domain country blues classics like "Devil got my woman" and "C. C. Ryder". But yeah, there are some big gaping flaws in the game, I started a few threads on the 1 dimensional treatment of Karma (in that it is a line, not even 2d) and the less than spectacular ending.
But then again no game is really all that tight... there was a maniac professional game developer who acted as one of the main mod makers for Freedom Force... that dude turned bugs and glitches into new powers and abilities. What I am saying is that fallout 3 is not perfect, but it is good enough to attract a lot of talent. While Im not going to download the nude textures, Final Fantasy weapons, anime hairstyles and schoolgirl outfits, I am really digging mods that add basic needs (hunger/thirst), WW2 weapons, elements from Fallout 1&2 (like Geckos) and new factions.
cronicler
Lurksalot
lugaru: Mate, This has been kicked around here for so much that it is really boring. Yes FO3 like its predecesor Oblivion is a very nice toolbox. Or a very big box of Lego Technics.
Yes you can do amazing things with it.
However does the greatness of possibilities justify the price of an AAA title?
I had Oblivion installed until last month or so. Here is my used mod list:
-General Gameplay Overhaul
-Combat Overhaul
-2048. textures
-Open Cities
-Alternate World Map
-Kwatch Rebuilt and about 7 or 8 other village, city mods.
-Midas Magic
On the quests and stories etc I generally activated 1 quest mod at a time
Ah and this takes the cherry on top: I was using the Main Quest Disabler so that I could enjoy the game.
Seriously. I was enjoying my game, sure but I had to disable nearly %90 of Bethesda's creations just to enjoy the game... I mean I was paying for a game engine and some really retarded conversation AI...
Also you are missing the point that most of the "better/bigger/beautiful" mods are actually tiptoeing the line of being legal. What we are doing with the script extender is hacking the source code. Some code grus gave reverse engineered the code so that you can insert your favorite codes instead of the vanilla ones like combat overhaul.
Sure the game is moddable but that part mostly comes from the part that the basic engine (gamebryo) has been used everywhere and his mistress.
What you are also skipping is the lies B. has thrown around. We are making a game that is true to Fallout etc. Yes they Copy Pasted from the fist two games but thats just it.
Why should I bother with modding it, as my/your/his mods will just fill Bethesdas coffers. Which they just use to serve the same crap again with another sauce on top.
Yes you can do amazing things with it.
However does the greatness of possibilities justify the price of an AAA title?
I had Oblivion installed until last month or so. Here is my used mod list:
-General Gameplay Overhaul
-Combat Overhaul
-2048. textures
-Open Cities
-Alternate World Map
-Kwatch Rebuilt and about 7 or 8 other village, city mods.
-Midas Magic
On the quests and stories etc I generally activated 1 quest mod at a time
Ah and this takes the cherry on top: I was using the Main Quest Disabler so that I could enjoy the game.
Seriously. I was enjoying my game, sure but I had to disable nearly %90 of Bethesda's creations just to enjoy the game... I mean I was paying for a game engine and some really retarded conversation AI...
Also you are missing the point that most of the "better/bigger/beautiful" mods are actually tiptoeing the line of being legal. What we are doing with the script extender is hacking the source code. Some code grus gave reverse engineered the code so that you can insert your favorite codes instead of the vanilla ones like combat overhaul.
Sure the game is moddable but that part mostly comes from the part that the basic engine (gamebryo) has been used everywhere and his mistress.
What you are also skipping is the lies B. has thrown around. We are making a game that is true to Fallout etc. Yes they Copy Pasted from the fist two games but thats just it.
Why should I bother with modding it, as my/your/his mods will just fill Bethesdas coffers. Which they just use to serve the same crap again with another sauce on top.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Chessmaster; tighter than my sphincter in holding cell.lugaru said:
Well, I would question what those who are only now being drawn to Fallout 3 as a PA game shoe-horned into the shallow Oblivion dumbed-down RPG-lite paradigm would contribute to this, an uninspired Elder Scrolls clone if they weren't interested in the series prior to it being stripped of most of it's PnP RPG roots in the first place.lugaru said:
You're right, it is personal preference, and barring some RPG miracle of Tormentian proportions, I'll pass.
In general, I'd say that more popular games attract bigger mod communities (all other things being equal). There are obviously other factors, but if games attracted modders because they needed modders, then Big Rigs would have the biggest community around.Cimmerian Nights said:
Personally, I had fun with vanilla FO3. The mod tools and community just extend the life of the product.
Holocausto
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I got a nutty idea....how about game makers release a game which I don't feel the need to fix or constantly seek out other mods? They used to do it all the time in the old days. Me personally I don't give a damn about 8 million new skins/weapons as that's not my problem(s) with the game + the balance problems with putting all these guns in the game 'just because'.lugaru said:
Somebody redo most all the quests/ main story, voice overs, add iron sights, eliminate the 'I can see them yet can't shoot them' disparity and on and on and on....(I'd be here all day listing everything). I guess some people don't get it. I don't want to fix/seek mods to fix a game. I want to BUY it and PLAY it. That's the whole point of somebody producing something you want to buy...so YOU DON'T HAVE TO PRODUCE IT. Released mod tools should be used as an optional tool to expand the game. Basically a map editor/maker. Not to FIX the game. Damn...why am I still bothering with this and why does this philosophy seem so elusive for some to understand.
lugaru said:
Graphic glitches that get you stuck in the ground, game-breaking bugs and hourly CTDs are not on the list of things that I think are fun, no. But if you think those are up to people's tastes, and you yourself enjoy those, then you must be an odd person.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Whether you had fun with it and whether it's a quality product are two seperate things. I enjoy "The Librarian: Quest for the Spear" greatly but that's because I enjoy the way in which it's a horrendous movie (script, acting, special effects, props, etc. are all terrible).Dionysus said:
What's most important to modders is mod tools which allow you to change a lot of the game so companies that provide such tools (Valve, Bethesda, NWN games [Bioware and Obsidian respectively], etc.) tend to have mod communities who do more impressive/massive mods. That said, the most impressive mod I've ever played was for NWN and required me to download no files (hak packs for NWN), it was done completely through scripting and blew every hak pack out there out of the water. It was for a custom RP server and it managed to have improved AI, dynamic models, floating terrain, and many other things entirely through custom programming (in C++).
The game has bugs for everyone, it's just that some PC owners are fortunate enough to not run into most/any of the major ones. That said, the game is still broken and dearly in need of patches which fix all of it's bugs, starting with the big ones. Considering how much DLC Bethesda releases and how well their games sell, there is no excuse for the lack of support other than their knowledge that the mod community will do all of their dirty work for them, which is not a sign of good customer relations.lugaru said:
cronicler
Lurksalot
lugaru said:
Totally random ctds
Memory leaks that can start when they feel like it
Buggy/Poor physics
Tons of combat bugs
Bad storytelling
Bad map placements
Bad settlement/quest hub designs
Bad/Broken/Unbalanced quest designs
Bad/Broken/Poor AI
Bad/Poor/Sometimes Broken speech
Bad/Poor/Unbalanced skill and stat and perk organization
Leaving fallout aside, totally weird item choices for random loots
Bad/Poor Graphical performance including skating, flying, ICBM liftoffs and many other weird things.
Totally broken game end
Vats combat system. (Stolen from the damn Combat Overhaul for oblivion and the damn bugs of it which are documented/couldn't be solved by the creator as he had to go too deep into the original Oblivion code to affect some of the bugs like "too close to enemy in melee can produce weird results in hit/damage calculations" are still there.)
These are just the facts that irritate me as a GAME PLAYER. I am not even talking about raping the husk of the poor fallout.
As I said; YES it is a nice toolbox. An A grade toolbox. (Actually a c grade toolbox but with the whole script extender and source code tweaks you can carry over from Oblivion mods WHICH ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE DAMN BASIC EDITOR.... it is able to change about 80% of the code)
WHERE IS THE BLOODY AAA GRADE GAME?
Why should I/You/Him/Her has to fix (yes fix not just mod. FIX) the game to make the damn game enjoyable? We did it with Oblivion remember? And Beth reaped the cash for the Mods keeping the game alive. Then they served us, the gamers another load of the same basic crap. Why should I help those bloody bastards earn cash?
You like the story/atmosphere etc? Jolly good as most of the things you see in the game are just copied from the first two games (which admittedly didn't have stellar stories) and then run trough the blender to create a shapeless mush.
They could have spent 3 or 4 days designing the V101 better so that I had some Vistas etc when I was in tutorial. They could have added more scenes with dad so that I could have liked him a bit. They could have designed Megaton better. They could have designed places other than the bloody Megaton. They could have given me a GTA like sandbox game with you doing weird side stuff like becoming the owner of something by working for it, a house/ a business, a caravan, a fortress, a slave brothel...
They could have done a lot but didn't. So you want the gamers to step up again. Sure just tell me when the game falls to open source. Till then I invite you over to "Bear's Pit". You can also check the "System Shock 2" and "Fallout Restoration Project" too.
Edit: Think of B.s work as a man using a saw to cut some logs and then using a nailgun to nail the logs to create a table. He then presents you with a nice but somewhat basic carving set. Sure you can go out and get some more specialized tools and carve/varnish/glass panel the table to create a much nicer table but this doesn't change the fact that the bastard sold you some rough hewn logs and some nails and a basic carving set....
Would you buy such a table for the price of a real table?
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
And Morrowind before that.cronicler said:
What nu-Bethesda game hasn't been made this way?
Atomic Cowboy
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Albeit (al·be·it): al from the Latin alter, meaning other/another, also used in although.
[/GrammarNazi]
Anybody remember the good old days when game modding meant taking a critical success like BattleField 1942, and creating a Desert Warfare version? The appropriate level of support that Bethesda ought to be offering is paycheques. While vanilla F3 might be an enjoyable game to some, a judicious use of mods will vastly improve the game for everyone. That just ain't right.
[/GrammarNazi]
Anybody remember the good old days when game modding meant taking a critical success like BattleField 1942, and creating a Desert Warfare version? The appropriate level of support that Bethesda ought to be offering is paycheques. While vanilla F3 might be an enjoyable game to some, a judicious use of mods will vastly improve the game for everyone. That just ain't right.