Fallout 3 is overrated

[Holocausto]

Because for a lot of people the game is not broken, it just does not offer everything they want.

If you'll notice even many of official beth forum goers concede that certain things should have been in the game from the get go.

Throwing tantrums in front of small audiences is not going to convince any publishers that they should change the way they do things to suit your tastes.

I'm not trying to convince beth or it's publisher to change anything because they will do what they want to. I'm trying to reach customers like you who always seem to be in apology mode for poor lil beth. Not impressed by people who make apologies for giant game cos.

Other cos know the correct way IMO to "put a game together" beth IMO does not. Other games have minor quibbles.....F3 quibbles are much more than minor IMO. Let me give you some examples: I have 3 games installed for over a year now which I've yet to finish but not due to the games fault. Just my interest in gaming is waning. They are Doom 3, Bioshock & Thief Deadly Shadows. I have no MAJOR problems with any of those games. They are all good, solid, WELL EXECUTED, immersive, compelling & CHALLENGING games. Why am I not on their forums bitching about them? Because they are fundamentally sound & well done games, that's why.

 

[Dionysus]

Whether you had fun with it and whether it's a quality product are two seperate things.

Not really. It's interactive entertainment. It entertained me. I laugh at a lot of games, including Fallout 1&2.

What's most important to modders is mod tools which allow you to change a lot of the game so companies that provide such tools (Valve, Bethesda, NWN games [Bioware and Obsidian respectively], etc.) tend to have mod communities who do more impressive/massive mods.

I agree. Without dev support, Beth's mod community would probably be a small fraction of what it is.

Why should I/You/Him/Her has to fix (yes fix not just mod. FIX) the game to make the damn game enjoyable?

I never had any exceptional problems with Oblivion or FO3. They certainly have bugs, but most PCRPG fans are accustomed to that, and I honestly think they've been getting better since Daggerfall.

 

[Atomic Cowboy]

I never had any exceptional problems with Oblivion or FO3. They certainly have bugs, but most PCRPG fans are accustomed to that, and I honestly think they've been getting better since Daggerfall.

*Ahem*

Why don't you roll over and let them stomp on the other side of your head? You couldn't get away with this during the console era. Releasing a buggy game back then would qualify you for trampling under the company Brontosaurus.

Maybe we shouldn't be so accustomed to it.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Why should I/You/Him/Her has to fix (yes fix not just mod. FIX) the game to make the damn game enjoyable?

I never had any exceptional problems with Oblivion or FO3. They certainly have bugs, but most PCRPG fans are accustomed to that, and I honestly think they've been getting better since Daggerfall.

Personally, as a PCRPG player, I AM accustomed to RPG games having a fair amount of silly small bugs, like weird dialogue loops, improperly working items, etc. I am not accustomed to my game crashing every fucking hour of play. The only other game that ever did it to me was Troika's TOEE (which is otherwise a brilliant game that can teach something to any RPG developer).

The fact that Beth has been stamping out increasingly buggy DLCs rather than patching the mess. Where were all of you apologetic people when Stalker:CS came out?

 

[Crni Vuk]

...
It is already ignorant to act like all the people who got paid to make stuff for fallout 3 are incompetent, but pretending that all the mod makers are useless as well is the kind of eyes tightly shut bias that I keep nagging you guy's about, it bugs me to see people run out of things to complain about and start going after amateur 3d modelers, texture makers and coders. My advice? Pick a game you like, buy a copy and mail it to one of these people if you rather see them work on something you like, but don’t dismiss their talent.

Where did anyone said those people would be "incompetent" ? But I do definetly not arrogate to know everyone who is doing some changes to the game. There are definetly impressive things and there is definetly no issue with people that only change the colour of some armor or weapon and upload it on the Nexus people do what they like most and feel happy with. But it is just that way that some people just either dont want or cant do more then a few colour changes. Mods with much content take of course time. Who does dissmiss anyones talent by just saying that the value of a colour change is not in the same range as a whole alteration of a game, has a "green" deadric colour mod the same content like a Lord of the Rings mod for Oblivion? Why does someone need to reduce that to lack of talent. No one want to deny anyone his talent.

We should make here some thing clear. The value or content of "changes" and "modification" has nothing to do with the quality of the game. I quite liked Morrowind and many did as well uploaded armor and weapons which had only a change in colour. That makes the game not worse. But I just say that it will not add that much more to the longevity compared to a alteration or new quests. What has that to do with "talent" ? Nothing. If Michelangelo would draw with a pencil a simple coat would it leave you as impressed like the whole sixtine chapel only cause it comes from Michelangelo? Does that say anything about the talent ?

...
What's most important to modders is mod tools which allow you to change a lot of the game so companies that provide such tools (Valve, Bethesda, NWN games [Bioware and Obsidian respectively], etc.) tend to have mod communities who do more impressive/massive mods. That said, the most impressive mod I've ever played was for NWN and required me to download no files (hak packs for NWN), it was done completely through scripting and blew every hak pack out there out of the water. It was for a custom RP server and it managed to have improved AI, dynamic models, floating terrain, and many other things entirely through custom programming (in C++).
...

To that comes even the fact that some things for a very weird reason are in Fallout 3 "hard coded" meaning that even with the mod tools you will have a extremly hard time to change those aspects of the game. Like some of its mechanics regarding the damage system. I know this cause I talked with some people that moded for Oblivion and have a good knowledge about what is possible and what not. From what the explained me to change the way how "SPECIAL" works in Fallout 3 is extremly tricky cause parts of it are hard coded in to the engine.

Whether you had fun with it and whether it's a quality product are two seperate things.

Not really. It's interactive entertainment. It entertained me. I laugh at a lot of games, including Fallout 1&2.

It definatly ARE different things. You can have fun with a B-Movie. There are quite some I enjoy. But it doesnt change the fact that it are B-Movies.

The strange thing is just that amazingly enough Bethesda somewhat always accomplish it to sell their "B-movies" as "block buster" titles. With enough marketing I guess you can sell everything today. As some others already pointed out, with EA, or some other company no one would forgive broken games, not working DLCs or something.

 

[dirtbag]

Grow some nuts? Seriously if game reviewers can't handle possible swarms of pre teens/teens having their tantrums what are they doing reviewing games? Have your honest opinion..if some don't agree who gives a shit. Thick skin.

Well, that works for someone posting on a random blog, but most media outlets are running a business of some sort. When you are selling your opinion, it helps to think about the audience.

Well... Personally, I find good written bad reviews very funny.

 

[mountaingoat]

This thread is a good read with good points from everyone.
I’d like to contribute by looking at things from a different angle.

Recently, Todd Howard during a D.I.C.E. workshop analyzed Bethshoft’s modus operandi. He was referred, among other things, to three main goals a game company such as his, has to achieve in order to be successful.
a) Keep your boss happy.
b) Make the marketing department, part of the designing process.
c) Treat your customers/fans as infants for complete control.(this one is mine, a subconscious message (photo of an infant) from Todd, I think)

How does it work? Well, to my interpretation, it goes like this.
With the help of (b) you manipulate (c) increasing sales and therefore you reach (a).

Conditions that need to be met for the model to be workable are: you need to have a very strong/capable marketing department with a lot of financial back up and, the target group of your customers has to be harvested mostly from newcomers, to ensure widest acceptance and the least possible negative reaction.

One of the reasons they start from scratch every time they develop a new game is the above and the fact that they don’t need an established fan base to a franchise, they build new ones with the help of their marketing department.

That’s the reason the old fallout fanbase was alienated, as it may have acting as a thorn in the side, for them.
They’re keeping a paternalistic treatment to their fanbase by seldom posting in their forums, and if an executive like Todd or Emil posts something, this considered as big news from the fans.
A valid question is what will happen when the fan base grows mature and starts demanding more from a triple A title. Simply, they will move to a new fanbase in the next game and the problem is solved.
I don’t think they are going to admit, ever, that they make mistakes in their games.

But how you keep your boss happy? Obviously, by minimizing costs and maximizing sales. Money is the answer to the first goal.
One has to ask, is it so difficult for a big developer such as Beth, to develop a near flawless game and achieve quality and quantity at the same time, instead of hiding the flaws under the carpet?

Well, I believe that, as long as highly insecure executives with big egos and juvenile way of thinking hold the helm at Bethsoft, their games will keep on developing the same way as Oblivion and Fallout 3.

PS. It’s strange but the only time I had a belly laugh was when the famous deathclaw sky-rocketing instance occurred. Charon was in a frustrated state trying to figure out what the hell was going on, as that damn thing kept on jumping up and down ad infinitum.

His reaction was something like along the lines of: enemy-where-there-shoot-it’s gone, enemy-where-there-shoot-it’s gone, enemy-where….
Is this normal? IDK but it’s a pity I had a joyful moment out of faulty programming.