Fallout 3: Skills and Perks
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mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
Does it really matter what you use to identify evil people? Like someone already said, it makes sense from a game standpoint, as fingers are small and light and less gruesome than other ways.marko2te said:
As for solar powered, it's a "hey you've reached max level, take this neat ability" kind of thing. If it makes your immersion hurt, don't take the perk.
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
it does matter because "other ways" of making identification of a person who has an evil alignment are not that hard to come up with and almost all of them make more sense than a finger you cut off, BECAUSE EVERYONE HAS FINGERS AND PLENTY OF THEM.
good people have the same number of fingers as evil ones, and if you cut them off the person there is no way to know how evil they were from their finger.
On top of that, if I carefully kill a person with a headshot I should be able to harvest 10 fingers.
it makes no sense at all that you'd only take one if there are more there, and they are all worth money.
things that would make sense in terms of an NPC being able to identify them as parts of an evil being would be like these:
perhaps a certain color hankercheif that all of the bandits of a certain gang wear..
a tattoo that all the slavers have..
a super mutant's eyeball (they seem to fly everywhere anyway)
a ghouls head..
a centaurs long tonguey thing (no idea what the fuck they were thinking there..)
etc..
yet all they could come up with was:
eeeevil fingers!!1!
and for the record, NO. no matter what level you are, gaining superhuman abilities thru a perk that allows you to magically heal while standing in the sun, is completely stupid and it does not fit the Fallout setting.
It's not SCIENCE! it's just another way for them to shoe-horn magical powers into a gameworld that isn't in a fantasy setting.
Just like the magic radiation powers of the glowing ghouls.
good people have the same number of fingers as evil ones, and if you cut them off the person there is no way to know how evil they were from their finger.
On top of that, if I carefully kill a person with a headshot I should be able to harvest 10 fingers.
it makes no sense at all that you'd only take one if there are more there, and they are all worth money.
things that would make sense in terms of an NPC being able to identify them as parts of an evil being would be like these:
perhaps a certain color hankercheif that all of the bandits of a certain gang wear..
a tattoo that all the slavers have..
a super mutant's eyeball (they seem to fly everywhere anyway)
a ghouls head..
a centaurs long tonguey thing (no idea what the fuck they were thinking there..)
etc..
yet all they could come up with was:
eeeevil fingers!!1!
and for the record, NO. no matter what level you are, gaining superhuman abilities thru a perk that allows you to magically heal while standing in the sun, is completely stupid and it does not fit the Fallout setting.
It's not SCIENCE! it's just another way for them to shoe-horn magical powers into a gameworld that isn't in a fantasy setting.
Just like the magic radiation powers of the glowing ghouls.
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
OK, so fingers are a suboptimal choice. Not the best does not mean "SHITS ALL OVER CANON".whirlingdervish said:
Magic radiation powers meaning... the heavily irradiated glowing ghouls put out radiation, and are healed by it? That's "SCIENCE" as you put it, as much as giant ants etc. are.
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
please don't try to mouthstuff me, random beth apologist #53
where did I say that the evil finger idea in Fallout 3 "shits on canon"?
It doesn't and I didn't.
It's actually not a terrible mechanic if done correctly, and the Fallout RPGs actually did have some fetch quests like this where you go find X number of this or that and bring them to someone for money.
The difference is that they made sense and Bethesda's doesn't.
now to your other point of contention:
ghouls with magical powers who heal each other using an aura and shoot magical blasts of radiation at you, are one aspect of Fallout 3 that DOES shit all over established Fallout lore.
Ghouls didn't gain offensive powers from radiation in fallout.
It made them slow and weak and sickly by comparison to the normals.
The only thing they actually received that was beneficial was longer life in some cases, and that was tempered by the fact that they were hideous and falling apart, so it wasn't even a good thing that they survived so long.
Making them into health regenerating radiation mages is about as far from what they were meant to be as one can possibly get.
SCIENCE! isn't an excuse to do away with established lore. It's just a concept that should be taken into account when adding something to that canon that is meant to mesh with what has already been made.
where did I say that the evil finger idea in Fallout 3 "shits on canon"?
It doesn't and I didn't.
It's actually not a terrible mechanic if done correctly, and the Fallout RPGs actually did have some fetch quests like this where you go find X number of this or that and bring them to someone for money.
The difference is that they made sense and Bethesda's doesn't.
now to your other point of contention:
ghouls with magical powers who heal each other using an aura and shoot magical blasts of radiation at you, are one aspect of Fallout 3 that DOES shit all over established Fallout lore.
Ghouls didn't gain offensive powers from radiation in fallout.
It made them slow and weak and sickly by comparison to the normals.
The only thing they actually received that was beneficial was longer life in some cases, and that was tempered by the fact that they were hideous and falling apart, so it wasn't even a good thing that they survived so long.
Making them into health regenerating radiation mages is about as far from what they were meant to be as one can possibly get.
SCIENCE! isn't an excuse to do away with established lore. It's just a concept that should be taken into account when adding something to that canon that is meant to mesh with what has already been made.
Texas Renegade
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
Actually, if the regulators are a vigilante group, it is entirely possible, that like most vigilante organizations, they don't really care where you are getting the fingers from. Just as long as you are bringing them in and they believe you are getting them from bad people.
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
That's true, what you were saying was ridiculous, but not exactly that.whirlingdervish said:
Seriously? You have no idea how this is implemented in game, and yet it makes less sense then all the other fetch quests from other games. You want to hate Fallout 3, so you're looking for any opportunity to do so. I'm not apologizing for them, I just don't think that this is that big of a deal. It's not necessarily the best implementation it could recieve but certainly not worthy of the scorn you're giving it.
Of course, if the ghouls who were made in 2077 couldn't do it in Fallout, none of them can, no matter how they were made. Hell, the fact that they glow alone means they're putting out noticeable amounts of radiation.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
We know a fair amount of how it's implemented and it's done poorly. Fingers are the item used to prove that you've killed evil people, from all indications only evil people drop fingers, and all evil people drop fingers. It would require slightly more effort but actually making enemies drop stuff that makes sense (marks of some sort for raiders, really any piece of a supermutant, Tenpenny's monocle, ect) would help significantly. Also what about good people who are a part of evil organizations? They should have the same mark that everyone else in that organization does and you should get rewarded the same for turning that in.mandrake776 said:
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
This, you made up. This is how you think it will be implemented.UncannyGarlic said:
Don't really have a problem with the 'evil fingers'. The important part about it is the game mechanic it represents and I think running around and knocking off a few nastys for caps is a perfectly acceptable way to spend some time, if not overly original.
As for the ghouls and sticking with traditional fallout lore (yawn), its not unreasonable to imagine that the radiation affected people differently. I mean because the ghouls in the first games were sickly and weak does not mean that all the ghouls across America would be the same. There are 'standard'ghouls in the game anyway (the bartender in Megaton foe example). Sticking to canon is one thing but if that means that new lore cannot be created then game worlds would never evolve.
As for the ghouls and sticking with traditional fallout lore (yawn), its not unreasonable to imagine that the radiation affected people differently. I mean because the ghouls in the first games were sickly and weak does not mean that all the ghouls across America would be the same. There are 'standard'ghouls in the game anyway (the bartender in Megaton foe example). Sticking to canon is one thing but if that means that new lore cannot be created then game worlds would never evolve.
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
Lawbringer
Ranks Available: 1, Requirements: Level 14
once you have the Lawbringer perk, any evil character you kill will have a finger on their corpse. This finger can then be sold to a certain person (whose identity is disclosed when you take the perk) for caps and positive Karma.
Actually he didn't make that up, and yet again you're stuffing mouths with words that they didnt utter.
I made my point with logic rather than trying to insinuate ridiculous meanings from what someone else said to try and make their statement look ludicrous. Try arguing with what we actually said.
YOU added all of this to the "argument" on my position while not adressing any of my points:
I didn't mention the year the ghouls were made, as it has little bearing on the fact that ghouls have already been described in multiple installments of the Fallout series and in Fallout 3 they take a major departure from much of that description.
(now they're fast instead of slow, now most of them are feral bad guys when before most of them were just hard up irradiated humans trying to make it by, etc..)
I also did not deny that they do in fact emit radiation. I didn't even mention it because it does not automatically mean that magic powers should be in the game just because someone is irradiated.
please refute the arguments we actually did make, or this isn't really going anywhere.
Ranks Available: 1, Requirements: Level 14
once you have the Lawbringer perk, any evil character you kill will have a finger on their corpse. This finger can then be sold to a certain person (whose identity is disclosed when you take the perk) for caps and positive Karma.
Actually he didn't make that up, and yet again you're stuffing mouths with words that they didnt utter.
I made my point with logic rather than trying to insinuate ridiculous meanings from what someone else said to try and make their statement look ludicrous. Try arguing with what we actually said.
YOU added all of this to the "argument" on my position while not adressing any of my points:
you said:
I didn't mention the year the ghouls were made, as it has little bearing on the fact that ghouls have already been described in multiple installments of the Fallout series and in Fallout 3 they take a major departure from much of that description.
(now they're fast instead of slow, now most of them are feral bad guys when before most of them were just hard up irradiated humans trying to make it by, etc..)
I also did not deny that they do in fact emit radiation. I didn't even mention it because it does not automatically mean that magic powers should be in the game just because someone is irradiated.
please refute the arguments we actually did make, or this isn't really going anywhere.
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. Also, mouth stuffing is an obnoxious way of saying that.whirlingdervish said:
I didn't mention the year the ghouls were made, as it has little bearing on the fact that ghouls have already been described in multiple installments of the Fallout series and in Fallout 3 they take a major departure from much of that description.
(now they're fast instead of slow, now most of them are feral bad guys when before most of them were just hard up irradiated humans trying to make it by, etc..)
I also did not deny that they do in fact emit radiation. I didn't even mention it because it does not automatically mean that magic powers should be in the game just because someone is irradiated.
please refute the arguments we actually did make, or this isn't really going anywhere.
The ghouls from 2077 are the only ghouls in Fallout 1 and 2. Those would be the ones you're referring to, yes? Fallout is full of people being affected in magical ways by radiation, why should this be that big a difference?
I don't know what you think putting words in someone's mouth means, but with the exception of one thing (which I admit you didn't say) several posts ago, I haven't done anything like that.
Texas Renegade
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
ok, lets put the lawbringer perk this way. Good karma rating is required. Therefore, the "Regulators" have already seen and heard evidence of your good works so to speak.
Therefore, they are gonna trust you to hold true to form and the fingers you bring back would only be from baddies.
As for solar powered, my point with it being level 20 requirement making it work better, is it is entirely possible that you will have been exposed to a decent amount of rads by that point and therefore in some small way it might make more sense.
Therefore, they are gonna trust you to hold true to form and the fingers you bring back would only be from baddies.
As for solar powered, my point with it being level 20 requirement making it work better, is it is entirely possible that you will have been exposed to a decent amount of rads by that point and therefore in some small way it might make more sense.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
All ghouls were created from radiation from nuclear bombs, that's how they are all made and, from all indications, how all ghouls in Fallout 3 were made. I'm not really seeing your point here...mandrake776 said:
Except that they aren't just trusting you to hold true to form, the game only allows you to hold true to form. Remember that turning in fingers not only gives you money but a karma boost, this would make no sense and be inconsistent if they were from good people.Texas Renegade said:
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
UncannyGarlic said:
That's not all indications, I saw a story about how some of them are from a second deliberately created generation of mutants.
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Link it.mandrake776 said:
mandrake776
Still Mildly Glowing
Shit, I'm sorry, I misread a bit of the wiki on ghouls, that's why I couldn't place it. It was from Van Buren, (but labeled F3, that's why I misread it).
Regulators probably have more than one person going around collecting fingers, its admirable from them to believe in everyones honesty to bring only evil fingers. I believe that there is no one in that wasteland who would not abuse that system. Its stupid to argue and trying to justify design flaw. Only reason we have fingers instead of badges is because quest with collecting badges was already done in every other rpg and Bethesda wanted to show how original and mature they are.
It doesnt have any sense at all no mater how you put it. Its nothing more then a poorly written trait made perk with negative part removed.