Fallout 3: Skills and Perks

[Mettle]

This will probably operate no differently. You can probably trick the guy into taking fingers of anyone.. but probably if you do it too much he'll probably be like...

Or not. The perk description says "Once you have the Lawbringer perk, any evil character you kill will have a finger on their corpse." Not any character will have it, only evil ones.

Pretty much everyone who's defending the perk starts speculating on stuff contradictory to its description.

Did'nt you know that all villains are born with a birthmark on their finger?

A small skull with Mickey Mouse ears.

Edit; Stolen from Swedish PCGamer forum.

 

[Moester]

Child at Heart - now that sounds interesting, wonder if it'll have any practical use though

I think it will be very much like the Kama Sutra master perk. Limited use, but will add some role-playing depth. Somewhat like the lady killer perk,

 

[gc051360]

Bethesda usually has dumb ideas.

The level of stupid here, does not come as a surprise.

 

[Kindo]

Child at Heart - now that sounds interesting, wonder if it'll have any practical use though

According to the article (might be worth a read, since the quoted part in the first post here is not complete), it will lead to quests and events otherwise not available in the game.

 

[radnan]

But I think that Beth simply wanted to eschew the whole "lopping people's heads off" sensorship issues and simplified the system with fingers.

Seems like they wanted to eschew common sense - like you said in your own post - even scalps and heads were open to abuse .. fingers is bordering ridiculous - not to mention that well people have 10 fingers ! - maybe they'll make the sheriff (or who gives the quest) a stupid character.

I never liked scavanger hunts - not in fallout and not in oblivion (which leaned heavy on it) - i have enough grind at work.

 

[Moester]

I think you are mixing apples and oranges. French and British knew that they wont kill their people but only their enemies. But they also knew that they will kill everyone including women and children.

Yeah, they had a charming expression to excuse that "nits make lice" Better known as "the only good ____ is a dead ___" We're talking about warfare hundreds of years before the geneva convention.

Lawbringer perk instead of quest, give a good alignment player ability to sell fingers of evil people to a merchant who know that they belonged to evil raiders. We have here two problems, its a perk not a quest or a trait and we have a trader who can recognize evilness of fingers. As i mentioned earlier this could work if you take fingers of specific group like mutants or ghouls and trader dont care if they belonged to either good or evil. Its also more logical/traditional for you to could collect marks, badges even tattoos from gangs . Basically this is nothing more than a poorly written generic quest that was already part of every other RPG.

Maybe you have read something that I haven't...but there is no mention of a trader who immediately knows that they're from Evil characters. From what I read its more of someone who knows you kill bad guys, and asks you for proof of your kills. If you bring him proof he will reward you accordingly. I think that they chose a finger because its a body part that is small and light, so shouldn't clog up your inventory. Imagine you clear out a den of raiders and have 30 kills. Imagine lugging hears or something like that. Badges would work, but I think that Beth thought that there would have been just as many complaints about easy obtention of fakes as anything else.

"How do they know its a reaver jacket, after all its not like they use a special kind of thread or have looms that churns out emblems. He could get that stuff from anywhere"

Personally I see the Lawgiver perk to have some advantages that could be very interesting if done well. I think too many here are too quick to go negative. I think its just a bonus for people killing the people they would kill regardless.

I like the fact that Perks now give you additional quests and dialogue options. My favorite new perk which isn't mentionned here is the Powered Armor perk. It always seemed strange to me that a tribal from the ass end of nowhere could put one on and use it like a pro without any training.

 

[thefalloutfan]

Concentrated Fire

I like that perk.

And the finger-off corpse one.

 

[JESUS]

Ok the solar powered perk is bad design period, you people cannot defend that even if you try. If it was implemented differently like giving more perception and agility (not too much), and explaining it.

I think Mad Mantis nailed it with his argument, BS is just lazy and don't come up with descriptions that justify to us why this perk is there, i shouldn't have to stretch my imagination to do this.

The child conversation perk is good, it will open dialogue options, fine, just make it valuable to get, but since now we get 1 perk per level it might not make such a huge difference too invest in this.

Finally Moester came with a decent explanation to the Lawbringer quest, that's the spirit use reason before bashing why we at NMA question bad design from BS, the perk should only be avaiable to people who have such a big karma (good side of the force ), that the guy giving the rewards would be convinced of where the fingers came from (evil hands), but it is still a stretch since i can go evil after that right?is a rpg after all, implementation is the key here, if i go evil and my karma drops too much he should know after the word gets around (not like the guards in Oblivion).

Now from the years i lurk here in NMA i have seen lots of trolls both sides, but the majority argues with reason about bad design decisions even in Fallout 2 they have this kind of critic thinking (New Reno); but the Fallout 3 defenders don't see that, they always try to come up with excuses for BS, just for once try to see why sometimes they fuck up, like the Fatman or Solar powered.

 

[Bernard Bumner]

Personally I see the Lawgiver perk to have some advantages that could be very interesting if done well. I think too many here are too quick to go negative.

Remember all of those other disappointments and terrible design decisions? It is a long list...

Otherwise, people have given their reasons - don't ignore their reasoning and just accuse them of unwarranted negativity.

It isn't even a Perk in the Fallout sense of the term, as far as I can see, it is just as you say...

I think its just a bonus for people killing the people they would kill regardless.

So, what is the point? An easy supply of money? A way of railroading people into killing bad-guys (for cash and karma)? Added gameplay value (substitute for a big old points-counter in the top corner of the screen)?

It is a very glib way to deal with a supposedly well-developed system of morality; "Do you like slaughter? Do you own or want to own a big White Hat? Kill bad folks! Get cash rewards!"

 

[Sander]

Maybe you have read something that I haven't...but there is no mention of a trader who immediately knows that they're from Evil characters. From what I read its more of someone who knows you kill bad guys, and asks you for proof of your kills.

The proof being....random fingers.

Look, no one has a problem with the idea of bounty hunting. It fits fine.
The problem is with the execution. First of all, it's a perk. This makes no sense whatsoever. It seems to be perfect quest material, to have to spend a perk on it is nonsensical.

Secondly, from what we know now it's going to be 'Hey here's a finger - give me money', while he only accepts fingers of evil characters (or more prominently, only evil characters leave fingers). In other words, this is a completely artificial limitation (it would've been more Fallouty to give you the option to turn in good fingers and watch what happens). EIther that, or he's a psychic fingerreader. Neither option is any good.

Of course, if you *can* turn in good fingers and that can have some consequences or unlock some extra questlines, then it would be much better.

 

[marko2te]

I think you are mixing apples and oranges. French and British knew that they wont kill their people but only their enemies. But they also knew that they will kill everyone including women and children.

Yeah, they had a charming expression to excuse that "nits make lice" Better known as "the only good ____ is a dead ___" We're talking about warfare hundreds of years before the geneva convention.

Post-apocalyptic world of Fallout is also far from Geneva Convention.

Lawbringer perk instead of quest, give a good alignment player ability to sell fingers of evil people to a merchant who know that they belonged to evil raiders. We have here two problems, its a perk not a quest or a trait and we have a trader who can recognize evilness of fingers. As i mentioned earlier this could work if you take fingers of specific group like mutants or ghouls and trader dont care if they belonged to either good or evil. Its also more logical/traditional for you to could collect marks, badges even tattoos from gangs . Basically this is nothing more than a poorly written generic quest that was already part of every other RPG.

Maybe you have read something that I haven't...but there is no mention of a trader who immediately knows that they're from Evil characters. From what I read its more of someone who knows you kill bad guys, and asks you for proof of your kills. If you bring him proof he will reward you accordingly. I think that they chose a finger because its a body part that is small and light, so shouldn't clog up your inventory. Imagine you clear out a den of raiders and have 30 kills. Imagine lugging hears or something like that. Badges would work, but I think that Beth thought that there would have been just as many complaints about easy obtention of fakes as anything else.

In description of the perk it says that when you deliver evil finger to the mysterious person youll get positive karma. Logic states that youll get positive karma because you killed a evil person but a finger is not a reliable proof. Badge, sash or bandana is much more reliable proof that somebodys finger.

"How do they know its a reaver jacket, after all its not like they use a special kind of thread or have looms that churns out emblems. He could get that stuff from anywhere"

Yeah, gang emblems are easy to find but fingers are a bit tricky.

Personally I see the Lawgiver perk to have some advantages that could be very interesting if done well. I think too many here are too quick to go negative. I think its just a bonus for people killing the people they would kill regardless.

And you are too quick to praise and defend something that at least to me is obviously broken. Problem is that its poorly made perk which is nothing more than a poorly written generic quest. At best it could be used as a trait like Gecko Skinning. In this form it just doesnt make sense.

I like the fact that Perks now give you additional quests and dialogue options. My favorite new perk which isn't mentionned here is the Powered Armor perk. It always seemed strange to me that a tribal from the ass end of nowhere could put one on and use it like a pro without any training.

Well i agree that concept of perks that add additional quests and dialog options are commendable. But if they are made like this one then ill rather pass.

 

[JESUS]

Yeah even if they justify the Lawbringer perk it's bad, they should not had made this a perk, a quest or a reputation bonus title should unlock this. I don't see the perk going away even if you go nut evil after getting it and wiping out whole settlements, and believe me people will do this to test this perk.

Moester defense of the perk was good if it was a quest not a perk, i see where i made that mistake too.

Edit: What makes matters even worse is that you are only aware of the guy who buys fingers after you get the perk, wow, just psychic of you right.

 

[Gauss Pistol]

I like the idea of Solar powered one, makes me think of feeling rejuvenated when you catch some tasty rays. Also maybe the kids in FO3 have a decent amount of dialog which I think is cool.

 

[JESUS]

I like the idea of Solar powered one, makes me think of feeling rejuvenated when you catch some tasty rays. Also maybe the kids in FO3 have a decent amount of dialog which I think is cool.

Indeed that would have been just a fine perk to get if they didn't add the regeneration shit in it. As it is it's the superman or birdman perk, the night person trait in the originals didn't give you anything that broke the reality.

If this is a mutation of some kind it should be better explained to be believable, i don't see bethesda doing this though.

Edit: Also looking at the Vault the list of perks is so small compared to the other games that it's beyond me why you get 1 perk for every level gained. Not to mentioned that the requirements for the perks to appear are also low, only solar powered and mysterious stranger seens to need some investment planning in the SPECIAL department.

 

[thefalloutfan]

I *think* the list of perks on the vault is not the finished list.

I take back my lawbringer looks good comment. I realised it said 'evil' characters. How would we know whose evil or not? If it was just taking the fingers off a corpse only than it would be fine and dandy. Maybe even we have to decide if someone is evil or not, when it comes to more important NPCs.

 

[Moester]

Yeah even if they justify the Lawbringer perk it's bad, they should not had made this a perk, a quest or a reputation bonus title should unlock this. I don't see the perk going away even if you go nut evil after getting it and wiping out whole settlements, and believe me people will do this to test this perk.

Moester defense of the perk was good if it was a quest not a perk, i see where i made that mistake too.

Edit: What makes matters even worse is that you are only aware of the guy who buys fingers after you get the perk, wow, just psychic of you right.

How about if the Perk is a quest otherwise unobtainable? What if you don't get to magically know who this person is...but you get a communication on your pip-boy. Or you go back somewhere you've visited before and have someone proposition you (like a batender or something) but if you don't encounter that person...of if you've already killed that person you've just wasted a perk. Heck it could even be that "taking" the perk means that you have to join a vigilante group or something.

At this point its mostly just playing devil's advocate because I still hope that this game will be fun. And there is as much potential for good as there is for bad in this game. I try to remain cautiously optimistic even about things that seem to be a bit silly at times.

 

[Moester]

I *think* the list of perks on the vault is not the finished list.

I take back my lawbringer looks good comment. I realised it said 'evil' characters. How would we know whose evil or not? If it was just taking the fingers off a corpse only than it would be fine and dandy. Maybe even we have to decide if someone is evil or not, when it comes to more important NPCs.

I think that Beth equals "evil" characters to any NPC who can be counted as a critter. Any "instant" attack character will fall into the "evil" category. Raiders, Highwaymen, bandits = Evil IMO

 

[welsh]

Puzzling. I am not against bounty hunting, but how are you supposed to know who is good and evil- if they shoot at you, are they evi? If bandits/raiders are bad, then was Robin Hood evil?

The solar power one- wait, in a post-apocalyptic world, wouldn't you be more prone to cancer from direct sunlight?

WTF?

 

[JESUS]

How about if the Perk is a quest otherwise unobtainable? What if you don't get to magically know who this person is...but you get a communication on your pip-boy. Or you go back somewhere you've visited before and have someone proposition you (like a batender or something) but if you don't encounter that person...of if you've already killed that person you've just wasted a perk. Heck it could even be that "taking" the perk means that you have to join a vigilante group or something.

At this point its mostly just playing devil's advocate because I still hope that this game will be fun. And there is as much potential for good as there is for bad in this game. I try to remain cautiously optimistic even about things that seem to be a bit silly at times.

That's the point, with the info given it seens that the communication or whatever comes AFTER you get the perk, it's not a quest giver, the guy only appears after you get the perk, it makes no sense and it's fine to bash even if the game is not out.
This line of defense that we cannot criticize anything because the game is not out yet is old already, i wonder what will people say once the game is out and all we bashed was exactly the same design with no twists or big ifs.

 

[FeelTheRads]

So which people are evil in Fallout exactly? And which are the good ones?

Ah, isn't it nice that Bethesda can make such clear delimitations? Would've been really useful for my late grandmother who always asked "Who are the bad guys?" when she didn't catch the beginning of a movie.