Fallout 4: Does anyone else find the pre-war opening contrived?

Cyberfiend

First time out of the vault
For one, I already don't care at all about that baby. Stop trying to make me care about the baby, Beth. Trying to emotionally blackmail me into caring about the story because of a pixelated infant isn't gonna do the job, sorry.

Two, I can already imagine the opening will be a slog to get through in future playthroughs.

Three (and this is a personal nitpick), I don't like the forced heterosexuality. I don't like the forced marriage, or the forced baby, or the foreshadowing that dead baby angst will be a driving force in the plot. After being able to play as a butch lesbian mad scientist in New Vegas, this does feel like a regression in player choice.

After replaying New vegas, it just makes me a little sad that we're going back to a limiting roleplay set up. The beauty of New Vegas is that you could literally be anyone, and the plot still worked around your character. I'd argue the same can be said for Fallout 1 (You start off as a randomly selected sucker from the Vault. The rest is up to you) and even Fallout 2 (You're the chosen one. The rest is up to you). In those games, the roleplaying possibilities seemed endless (WHILE still working with the canon of the game), while in Fallout 4 it's already pretty much planned out for you from the start.

I wouldn't even mind so much if I could trust Beth to pull off an excellent story. In the Witcher franchise you play as a specific character, but the plot is so good that it doesn't bother me. However, at this point in time it looks like we're well and truly back in Fallout 3 territory. Let's just hope the baby doesn't come back just to sacrifice itself in a radiative chamber for no reason.

I don't know, maybe it's just me who feels like this.
 
No, I see you're point. I'm kind of interested in the Buck Rodgers-esque setup and there's no guarantee they won't somehow make the story work, (Unlikely, I know, but stranger things have happened. We live in a world where The Lego Movie was good. Strange times, man.) but it is no doubt a step backwards. Lets just hope it steps in another productive direction. (Like The Witcher.) But I'm just trying to be positive so don't mind me.
 
I get wanting to be positive, and I wish I could feel the same way. Who knows? Maybe the plot will be genuinely great and the limitations will be worth it. I just can't help but worry, you know? It just seems like such an unnecessary departure from the typical Fallout model.
 
I'd argue the same can be said for Fallout 1 (You start off as a randomly selected sucker from the Vault. The rest is up to you) and even Fallout 2 (You're the chosen one. The rest is up to you). In those games, the roleplaying possibilities seemed endless (WHILE still working with the canon of the game), while in Fallout 4 it's already pretty much planned out for you from the start.

Its a matter of perspective. You can easily say that in Fallout 4 you just a random survivor from a veteran suburb who had a family, and the rest is up to you.

Similar you can say that Fallout 2 was pretty much planned out for you. You are a tribal, descended of the Vault Dweller, who has been training from birth to go through the temple of trials, following your mama steps. Despite your choice in Char creation, starting with the adulthood test implies that you are young (20 year old by cannon). Beside your mentor, you had no living family, friends or lovers (at least none that cared enough to say goodbye) and overall you are assumed to be an altruistic village fool who will rush to save the day...

IMHO the most limiting factor in this is attitude and imagination...
 
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About the character already defined, i will copy-paste one of my previous post, (already copy-pasted a bunch of times) to save some time. There is an amount of things that is under a person's control and an amount of things that were set upon him by life itself, just in real life. You don't choose your skin color or were you were born, those things happened before any involvement from yourself. Let's call those things background. But the background isn't really who you are. Then, there is an amount of thing that aren't your decisions, but aren't the decisions of others either. Having a low HQ, a weak constitution, some mental disorders etc... Those things are your nature, which is different than your background. Then, you have your personnality, which is who you are deep inside. Then you make choices and you have motives that lead to those choices. Then, you have your evolution, that is your life between your birth and the present, which is a mix of all of those things, including your nature, your choices, and your motives. At last, there are outside events that happened to you, without any control from yourself, that don't depend on who you are, but isn't either related to your background.

In Fo1-Fo2-FoNV, to generalize a bit, the only things that are already defined are parts of your background (you were born in Vault 13/Arroyo), and an outside event that force you to leave. You didn't decide to go for the water chip, or the GECK, but were chosen by your people for doing that task, not because you are worthy, but expendable, or randomly chosen, or because Hakunin plants say so. Hell, you can be a complete moron with a weak constitution, unable to fight a rat, and still be chosen. The other members of your settlements might even lampshade this by considering the wrong person was picked. The choice of sending you doesn't depend on who you are at all. Then, you have indeed made a choice, but the only choice was to accept the task and leave your hometown. But if you didn't leave the hometown, you wouldn't explore the gameworld. So it isn't hard to accept that your character would want to do the same thing as the guy who bothered to buy the game, although for different reasons that you can choose to emphasis. Explore the gameworld is mandatory for both of you or there would be no game. Other than that, there is one other forced choice in Fo2, destroying the Enclave, but there is several possible motives. Destroying the Enclave because you hate them, saving your village, or just self-survival, as they want to kill everyone, including you. The courrier also chose to become a courrier, but we don't know anything past that. He might enjoy the job, or just doing that occasionnally amongs thousand of other jobs, he might owe ton of money etc...

Other than that, everything is up to you. You can decide the rest of your background, you can decide your nature, you can decide your personality, you decide your choices and motives, you can decide your evolution, you can decide who to side with in main/side quests, (and if you want to meet/kill Benny, find the chip, learn about them, or ignore them) you can decide your behavior, if you want to kill everyone, kill no one, be diplomat, be violent, be stealthy, have great intelligence, be a complete moron, be strong, be weak etc... Only things decided for you are a bit of background and one outside event that kick you in the gameworld.

In Fo3, they are already in a middle ground. You have more background elements forced upon you (lost your mother, were born outside, raised by a doctor father in a vault, expelled at 19, be loved by your father), but those are background elements. You can theorically choose your nature, personnality, some of your evolution, some motives, choices etc... You might say that somehow, you are forced to love your father, but you can choose to semi-antagonize him or at least disrespect him. You are free to antagonize or love Butch and Amata. The problem is that no matter if you keep mistreating your father and Amata, they will keep loving and helping you (imagine that the first person that comes to help you agains't her own father is the one you bullied for 19 years). Which gives the impression that the game refuse to aknowledge your agency. Not matter your choice, what happens next is what the develloppers chosen instead of what you chose. You can be a very kind and forgetfull Fo3 apologist and consider that those Vault people love for people they spent all their life with can never be broken. If that so, why so many of them try to kill you ? Let's be kind and consider that you have an input in your vault life. Then you are kicked from the vault, but not because who you are, but because what another character (your dad) did, and the overseer mistrust of him and his relatives.

After you leave it, it only goes downhill. No matter the nature, personality, motives, evolution and choices you try to provide to your character, the devellopper will always force him to make some choice (which, being forced, annihiliate the concept of choice) that can and probably will contradict all the character building you made. No matter what you decided for your character, he will escape your control and follow the develloppers orders, by looking for dad, helping him, joining the brotherhood, looking for the geck, and helping activate project purity. Not only your characters will have to do those things to finish the game (if you add Broken Steel, he wouldn't even be able to actually finish the game), but the others characters will also lose their agency by having a predetermined behavior instead the one they should have after your own action. If you killed thousands of BOS members, Lyons should never consider you as an hero, for instance.

So, IMO, Fo3 mostly managed to give you some input in the beginning (but still removing a lot of your agency compared with Fo1-Fo2-FoNV), pretend to leave you some agency afterward, but completly blow up the illusion when you are following the main quest. Which is, at best, a mixed bag. At worst, a complete denial of your agency.

About the blank state, it mostly fits to FoT. You can define some part of your nature (stats), and tiny part of your personnality (choosing to do optionnal objectives and how), and one (very committing) choice to join the BOS and follow its order. Everything else is a blank state, IMO, not because you don't have forced personnality/motive/nature/background/etc, but contrary to Fo1-Fo2-FoNV, there is not enough options in the game to allow you to choose how you will fill the blank and how the NPC will respond to it. With Fo1-Fo2-FoNV almost everything in the gameworld, allow you to make choices, define who you really are (despite the partial background and the single forced event) and the gameworld is reactive enough to react to it, providing the much needed consequences.

Which makes us pretty much worried, is not only the controversial way of handling those choices (of lack of) in Fallout 3, but also all the things that seem to be forced upon us, that go well beyond background and one single forced event. The tone of your voice, your heterosexuality, your marriage, your child, how you decorated your house, how you talk to your wife, buying the robot butler and choosing its programming. All of those things involve some develloppers decisions overriding your own, about your character's nature, personnality, behavior, evolution, motives and choices, with cover all the factors mentioned above. Of course, we cannot know to what extend the regression will occur, as it is only the beginning of the game, but so many devellopers choices overriding our own in just a few minutes is indeed extremely worrying.

Also, considering that the dev stated a few times that they wanted to give the player freedom, they seem about to fail that promise, by removing from the player several aspects of a freedom he already had in almost every other titles of the series, a freedom that was amongs the very things that made that series worth of praises in the first place. No matter if we love or hate that trend, a part of the player freedom to control its characters was removed. The remaining question is how much of this freedom we will still have at the end.

Once again, i am explaining an evolution and why some of us are worried. You don't have to be worried if you think that this freedom is unecessary. Although that freedom was one of the core things of the franchise, one of the thing that still make the games famous almost 20 years later. The fact The Witcher can be good is irrelevant to what the Fallout series usually allow.
 
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1. Yeah I can understand that. It's obviously an emotional play, and you can't connect to a baby you've never had anything to do with in a game before (and what a weird sentence that is)

2. Not really of relevance. It's to do with the story, the opening catering to setting the scene with no forced combat, where you get a glimpse of domesticity for the purposes of showing you what you lost, and what the post-post-apocalyptic world are/have been desperately clinging on to. You can just skip the Let's Play video if worst comes to worst.

3. 100% agreed.
 
Its a matter of perspective. You can easily say that in Fallout 4 you just a random survivor from a veteran suburb who had a family, and the rest is up to you.

Similar you can say that Fallout 2 was pretty much planned out for you. You are a tribal, descended of the Vault Dweller, who has been training from birth to go through the temple of trials, following your mama steps. Despite your choice in Char creation, starting with the adulthood test implies that you are young (20 year old by cannon). Beside your mentor, you had no living family, friends or lovers (at least none that cared enough to say goodbye) and overall you are assumed to be an altruistic village fool who will rush to save the day...

IMHO the most limiting factor in this is attitude and imagination...

I see what you're trying to say, but I have to respectfully disagree.

From what I've seen I'd eat my hat if the FO 4 protag's background doesn't play a big part of the story - hence my issue. In the other fallout games the plot didn't revolve around your character being a certain way. You have your main objective, and from there you can create your own story without resorting to retconning the canon of the story and lore. Sure, in fallout 2, you had a background, but the beauty of that game was that the developers were able to give you a back story while still allowing the player freedom of choice. If memory serves correctly, the two times I played as the chosen one I was a) a sultry femme fatale who didn't care about anything other that her objective and caps, and b) a buffoon built like a brick shit house who , while rough around the edges, had a heart of gold. Both characters had the same initial back story, but ended up widely different.

In New Vegas, it's canon that you are a courier with a history in the Divide, looking for revenge against the man who shot you in the head. Yet from that I was able to create literally COUNTLESS characters.

In Fallout 3, I was a sheltered 19 year old kid on the lookout for Daddy dearest, a character Beth desperately wants me to care about. The entire plot revolved around my character's daddy issues, and when he randomly "sacrifices" himself for me, I then had to finish what he started. Sure you had the option to be randomly evil and join the enclave, but right from inception the roleplay options were considerably less open than in other Fallout games.

See the difference?

And that's my issue. I wouldn't mind being an intelligent (or at least not dumb) heterosexual veteran with a child and a spouse that he/she loves IF I could rely on Beth to come up with a decent plot to fit that defined character. The sad reality is that I just don't. I don't trust Beth at all with that. Ultimately it feels like we've given up character choice to fit a storyline that's just going to be "Where in the World is Daddy Dearest V2 - dead babby edition".

And before anyone says anything, even if it does turn out the initial pre-ward bit doesn't matter to the over arching plot, I will actually find that worse. In that case there would be no reason for Beth to make it mandatory to thrust a wife, a child, and military experience onto my character.

Ultimately I will play the game as I see fit, and will probably ignore the main plot as I did in Fallout 3. At the end of the day though, what's a RPG if you have to spend most of it completely avoiding the plot? Imagination is one thing. Coming up with bullshit reasons and excuses to try and make the game's story bearable takes the piss.
 
What I don't like about it is the gameplay implication. Every time you want to replay the game you will have to go through the exact same sequence. Very similar to Skyrim, where you are forced to sit in a cart, wait to have your head *not* chopped off and then run from Helgen. You can't skip it, you don't have any meaningful choice of how you proceed there. (No, the choice between following the Stormcloak or the Imperial is not meaningful)
Same thing in Fallout 3 where you have to go through the whole Vault 101 sequence.
In Fallout New Vegas on the other hand, all you have to do is make your character at the Doc's place and that's it. You don't even have to do anything in Goodsprings, you can just go your merry way right from the start.
Fallout 2 has a little bit of that problem with the temple of trials, but fortunately it's not that long.
 
In New Vegas, it's canon that you are a courier with a history in the Divide, looking for revenge against the man who shot you in the head. Yet from that I was able to create literally COUNTLESS characters.

.

You aren't looking for revenge agains't the man who shot you in the head. It is just one of the possibilities.
You can :
- Seek for revenge agains't the guy.
- Seek to understand why he did that.
- Seek the guy and his accomplices in pre-emptive defense in case they would attack you again.
- Seek to get back the macguffin you were supposed to carry into the Mojave, for honor, because you fear repercussions, because you need money, or for use it for your own ends.
- Use that series of events to get a better understanding of the region.
- Ignore Benny entirelly

Once you find him you can :
- Ignore him
- Kill him
- Spare him
- Focus entirelly on the MacGuffin and treat him like a mere obstacle.
- Spend hours discuting with him about the fate of the Mojave (he has enough conversation to allow that)
- Let the legion deal with him.
- Focus on Yes man as soon as you find it.

In Fo3,
You can :
- Seek for your dad
or
- Seek for your dad

Then you can :
- Help your dad to escape Tranquility Lane and activate project purity.
or
- Help your dad to escape Tranquility Lane and activate project purity.
 
Good point, Naosanno. I almost always exact revenge on Benny, I sometimes forget there are other options. :lol:

I would like to say that, despite the fact you technically can side with Enclave, there is absolutely no reason to. They are so cartoonishly evil and there's straight up no benefit in siding with them that it seems fucking bonkers to even offer that "choice". While Caesar's Legion aren't by any means as fleshed out as the NCR or other factions, there is at least something there to perk your interest. With the Enclave in FO3, even if your character is the reincarnation of Hitler himself, you'd be a fool to enact their plan.


Hell, does siding with Enclave and damning the wasteland to hell have ANY effect on the Broken Steel DLC? Or is that "choice" taken away from you as well?
 
From what I've seen I'd eat my hat if the FO 4 protag's background doesn't play a big part of the story - hence my issue.

Lets not change the goal post, you spoke about the opening and I stand by my answer, that there is no major difference in the way FO1, FO2, FO3 and FO4 intro's handled your role-plying choices. And IMHO exploring life in the vault and during pre-war is far better ideas then playing the tribal in the temple of trials.

Meanwhile if you had argued against the way FO3 handled plot\quest structure, then we would be in agreement.

In Fallout 3, I was a sheltered 19 year old kid on the lookout for Daddy dearest, a character Beth desperately wants me to care about.

One thing that I will give Beth credit for on this topic, is that the above is true whether its daddy, water chip or GECK.. At least they tried to make you care about your goal instead of assuming you are the altruistic village fool who will rush to save your vault\village who you have no reason to care about, just because they put a timer or timed reminders above your head.

And that's my issue. I wouldn't mind being an intelligent (or at least not dumb) heterosexual veteran with a child and a spouse that he/she loves IF I could rely on Beth to come up with a decent plot to fit that defined character.

No argument here, but FYI its almost certain that your family will die and you are the sole survivor, and there is nothing (in the intro) that limits you from playing the dumb, homosexual who hated his wife and kids...
 
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Lets not change the goal post, you spoke about the opening and I stand by my answer, that there is no major difference in the way FO1, FO2, FO3 and FO4 intro's handled your role-plying choices. And IMHO exploring life in the vault and during pre-war is far better ideas then playing the tribal in the temple of trials.

Meanwhile if you had argued against the way FO3 handled plot\quest structure, then we would be in agreement.

That's fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion. I just don't agree with you as I do think there is a lot less gamer agency when it comes to our character in Fallout 4 than there has ever been. While the temple of trials was annoying, it served as a tutorial and didn't really have any relevance after the fact.

One thing that I will give Beth credit for on this topic, is that the above is true whether its daddy, water chip or GECK.. At least they tried to make you care about your goal instead of assuming you are the altruistic village fool who will rush to save your vault\village who you have no reason to care about, just because they put a timer or timed reminders above your head.

Here's a question, if your character has lived in that village all their lives, wouldn't it make sense they would give a shit about trying to save it? In Fallout 1 we had no idea the overseer would kick us out at the end, so it makes perfect sense of me that the Vault Dweller, even if they resent being picked for the job, still did their best to find that water chip. It's their home after all. Even if it's not outright stated, one can assume there is reason enough for them to give a shit without resorting to emotional pandering. As for why WE would care about saving the village/Vault, well, we bought the game right? If we didn't care about playing and trying to achieve the goal we wouldn't buy the game. I feel like the main difference between Fallout 3 and the other Fallout games is that in FO1, F02 and F0NV, we become emotionally invested along the way, while in FO3 they deliver an emotional kick to the groin from the onset, and hope that will carry the player into continuing further. That's not necessary a bad tactic, but the way F03 did it was beyond ham fisted.

No argument here, but FYI its almost certain that your family will die and you are the sole survivor, and there is nothing (in the intro) that limits you from playing the dumb, homosexual who hated his wife and kids...

Do I believe the family dies? Sure. Does that mean their deaths won't have an impact on the story? If it doesn't then imo using baby death as a way to get somebody emotionally invested in the beginning of your game is pretty tacky.

The fact is, the only way I will be able to play as a dumb gay guy who doesn't give a fuck about his dead kid is if I completely ignore the plot. For one, being able to play as an idiot is already out of the window because of the new voice acting bullcrap, let alone the fact that it's canon our protag is an army man. It is already canon that my protag is attracted to women enough to marry and father a child with one. As for straight up HATING his dead family members that would a) make no damn sense as it's pretty clear from the opening cut scenes that there is affection there, and b) would make my character sociopathic. Even if he was for some reason a closted gay man, to ignore the trauma that would come with losing your only child would be horrendous.
 
This discussion made me wish Beth had enough sense to make alternative intros and let the player choose the background, which would change the intro. A husband instead of a wife for your male character, no child/adopted child. But who am I kidding? It's obviously not going to be the case. :|
 
Personally, im hoping that the pre-war sequence is a bit fleshed out. Say you go with your wife/husband to the vfw hall and you have an option to cheat with someone there. Or dialogue that voices your

disgruntled attitude towards your love life, ptsd issues, or even trouble adjusting to civilian life. The fact that your character is a veteran allows a lot of possibilities for psychological issues that would caue

disassociation from normal " family man"life. To be given something and have it taken away from you is a mechanic many games employ. But there can still be options. Maybe your spouse and yourself have an

argument the night before the bombs fall. When you wake

up and find her dead obviously you ight feel regret, or maybe relife that you dont have to deal with her shit anymore. There is no way to really feel good about your offspring dying, but the point of it is just to

make you feel something. Im trying to be optomistic here obviously, but given the little we know about the backstory there are still plenty of rp options. Especially if what Todd said was true and the game

begins in 2075. That gives the potential to really flesh out the family relationship you are in.
 
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I think that Bethesda made a cardinal mistake ~again; this time in showing the pre-war golden age. It should have always remained a distant relic of the past; described, but never seen by the player. They've setup the PC [and/or spouse] as one of the very few non-ghoul characters who remember the world as it was, and I bet they do nothing with it.
 
IDK its benefit is that it was always depicted as that classic dreamy 50s-look nuclear (lel) family where everything is idyllic and neighborly despite the encroaching war hovering over them like a black cloud. I think it very much represents that decadent, naive nostalgia that some of the folks in the wasteland have for the pre-apocalypse world. Not that I disagree with what you're saying but I don't think showing it is /inherently/ flawed an idea.
 
I think "showing the pre-war Fallout world" (unless it's like a holotape as a newsreel) is a mistake. Not only is that literally the least interesting thing about Fallout (it's only interesting in explaining how the much more interesting post-apocalypse world came to be), not only does it limit roleplaying, but it kind of makes roleplaying impossible.

Specifically, someone with experience with the other Fallout games is going to have considerable knowledge of the Fallout world, not only who runs New Reno, but also stuff like "Deathclaws are dangerous", "Geckos aren't really", "Rad Away is still effective after all these years", and "what's valuable salvage." As brain-damaged as the Courier might have been from her cranial perforation, you can choose to RP someone who knows all this stuff already, or you can RP someone who asks basic questions like "what's the NCR." But the thing is that the previous Fallout games have really given us very little to go on about the day to day life and ordinary values of the pre-war world (this is as it should be), so all Fallout fans whether they started at Wasteland or Fallout 3, will know very little about the Fallout world. Yet our character in Fo4 grew up there and had a family in that world, so he or she would know a lot about it and would have their values shaped in the world. So what I personally know about the world of the game exists almost entirely in the complement of what my character knows about the world of the game.

That pretty much means that the only characters you can really play are "angry slack-jawed yokel", "sad slack-jawed yokel" or "confused slack-jawed yokel."
 
"YOU FUCKING WHAT?"[/QUOTE]:ok:


Exactly lol. There is no one forcing you to be happily married. Albeit from the footage they're lovey dovey in the mirror. I just hope they give you some way to develop a real relationshipwith your npc family instead of it just being a glorified tutorial.
 
Ah well, I would not think to hard about it. They made just as much hype about "growing up in the Vault!" like they do now with "You start as pre-war character!". In the end it was just a boring and glorified tutorial, worse than the Temple of Trials. Bethesda loves to do that ... I think the last game where they just gave you a name, a few stats and throwing you in the game world was Morrowind really.
 
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