Fallout 4: The Nature of Generic Bad Dudes

[DR_LaZer]

1. But that's exactly the problem, they attack everyone for no reason, even if they aren't attacking them, and then turn around and claim they are defending themselves from people attacking them, when no one is actually attacking them. Do you not see how that train of thought doesn't add up?

We blow up everyone who attacks us! -> But no one ever attacks you? -> Right, because we blow up everyone! -> But why do you blow them up if they aren't actually attacking you? -> To protect yourselves from being attacked! -> But how do you know they want to attack you if you blow them up? -> Uhhh, I guess I never thought about that!

It's an entirely dumb contrivance, that anyone who rubs two brain cells together could see doesn't make sense, made up just so throw another quest in your face. Its just as dumb as needing to tell the Great Khans about how the freaking KHANS, the very group they are named and model their existence after, lived to inspire Papa Khan to get them to move on from NCR lands.

OK.... lemme tell you the train of thought that I believe that they had. "Oh yeah, we're out of the Vault! -> Oh no! We're getting attacked! -> We keep getting attacked out in the wild! ->Oh yeah, now that we have a base we should be safer! -> People seem to keep attacking us. -> At this point it seems safe to just keep killing anyone on our doorstep. -> People seem to've stopped attacking us! It must be from our heavy weaponry scaring them!

I don't see why eventually they'd suddenly for absolutely no reason just STOP attacking people and let them in with open arms. For all they know that's a trickster raider!

2. It's not even supposed to be the kids job. It was someone else's job to tell the story until he got killed doing something stupid while drunk. And its even WORSE that they tell their story verbally because everyone knows that verbal story telling is the least accurate method of keeping history as the story changes every time you tell it. They lose thier history every time that kid tells the story, something that could have been solved had the just wrote it down on a computer terminal.

OK.... I'm not going to pull the whole "maybe they have it stored down somewhere" card, I'm going to say this: The Boomers never really seemed too interested in their past. As in, it always seemed like that mural and person telling the story was an after thought. I mean, do YOU keep a record of how you moved on your computer? I don't. I just tell the story.

It's not like it's vital for survival or anything. It's just a thing. Hell, does ANY of the factions keep a record on a terminal detailing their moving from one location to the other? NO! One because it's stupid, two because Obsidian knew it would be more engaging for a PERSON to tell it to you, without you having to read a wall a text.

3. Its mentioned in lore that Vaults have Vault-Suit extruders that can produce new Vault-Suits, and, if unlocked with codes from the GECK, other outfits as well.

4. Which is itself another problem. Bighorners are fairly commonplace in the mojave, they should have used their robots to capture a few a long time ago. Which would give them access to material to make clothes.

5. They did get them from the base, I didn't mean to imply that they didn't. But after spending generations wearing them they would have developed tons of holes, and without anything to patch them with, they would have quickly becomes useless. That they have anything to wear at all is something of a surprise.

1: ..... Well who's to say they didn't just take that? You said other clothes too, right? Well.... can't they just use that to make new jackets?

2: I don't see why they would though. They have perfectly good suits and jackets.

3: Like the other person said, there's not even five generations. Leather is a bit of a sturdy material. I don't see how they would really get the holes. If they were travelers then that might be a question. But they're xenophobes who stay in one location for their entire life.

A. After the fall of the Commonwealth Provisional Government 100ish years ago, the people of the wasteland blamed The Institute for the CPG's fall(when evidence actually points to the settlement's infighting being the reason), and started creating paranoid delusions that The Institute was behind everything that went wrong in The Commonwealth.

The Institute originally tried to simply hide in their base, staying completely out of the affairs of the surface world. However, after the Broken Mask Incident 58 years ago, in which an early Gen 3 synth was accidentally released to the surface on work duty, only for it to wonder off to Diamond City, glitch out, and murder and bunch of people, getting destroyed by D.C. Security in the process, and revealing the existence of human-like synths to the people of the Wasteland, the paranoia wastelanders had of The Institute only shot up to 11.

The Institute, still wanting to stay out of the affairs of the surface in general, but also wanting to defend themselves against a possible paranoia based attack by the surfacers, set up a system of things like synth crow watchers, and replaced a small number of people, like McDonough of Diamond City, and got him to run on an anti-ghoul platform, getting the ghouls thrown out of Diamond City(to split the populace up and keep them divided) and used him to watch for possible surface threats, and give out speeches that downplayed The Institute's threat, in order to try to prevent the surfacers from being able to rally against The Institute.

OK, lemme see if I got this straight. First there was a form of government, but then it fell apart. So people.... somehow knew about The Institute somehow, and blamed them.... alright. Then..... a Gen 3 synth, which is literally just a person with implants in their brain, was somehow found out as a synth. Guess they found the parts in his head and assumed "SYNTH!" and again, used their psychic knowledge The Institute exists and blamed it on them...... cool, alright.

And so, The entirely safe and sealed up in an underground bunker that you'd practically need a bunker buster bomb to get into Institute, decided that FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY they needed to interfere and replace the few positions of power to keep them divided and domestic so that.... they wouldn't try to find them, even thought it took the reincarnation of Jesus on a death mission to find their kid to get one person there in the first place. Did I miss anything?

B. The Coursers, and you being sent to retrieve the synth raider Gabriel, are an effort to reclaim what they see as lost property, and to keep synths out of the general public so there isn't another Broken Mask type incident that could incite the people to attack the Institute.

Yes, but my point was that Father was making a point of "Look at all the chaos and terror that one synth is causing. We don't want that." It wasn't even linked to the institute, it was just a dude causing chaos. I'll get back too this in a short minute.

C. The FEV lab was closed down because the scientist running it, Brian Virgil, got tired of doing tests on people for what he saw as having no real purpose, since the synths were doing fine, and there was seemingly no need to improve the FEV strains used in synth creation. He wanted to get the lab shut down, possibly forever, and escape The Institute, so he infected himself with a strain of FEV he developed, turning himself into a super mutant, and wrecked the lab. Super Mutants "getting out" was never a problem. All evidence suggests The Institute simply dumped them on the surface because it was easier.

OK, so If I also have this correctly, a dude thought that they were being evil so he fucked up the lab and left for radiation land. Then Father decided "Ehh, just dump em on the surface" and left it at that. Even though shooting them in the head and dumping them in one location would've been a better idea. Or burning them. I mean, earlier you were making a point about how they wanted to be kept outta shit, yet they dump fuckin' gajillions of super mutants onto the surface because it's easy?

Jeez, and a minute ago Father was lecturing me on how one synth will fuck shit up, not knowing that his entire god damn super mutant army is doing way more damage than one raider leader. Because aside from getting his synth back, that's what he was doing. He was showing me how chaos causing they were and that he didn't want that for the surface. I'll get back to this again in a minute.

D. The Institute cares nothing of the surface, and doesn't want to help them at all. Father, and several people in The Institute point blank tell you so. They see the surface as a completely lost cause, and only wish to finish their nuclear generator so they can attain self sufficiency, and live in their underground paradise. They only "care" about the surface in so far as making sure the surface can do nothing to harm them.

Well, this is contradictory. The entire time I was in The Institute I was told about how they wanted to help the surface, how synths would help everyone. How they wanted what's best for humanity. The whole fetch my synth quest being father showing us that they synths do bad things on the surface and he don't want that. But they release super mutant armies on the surface, and also capture surface dwellers for said super mutant experiments.

On a side note, that lab wasn't that big. I don't see how a literal army of super mutants covering the south of the common wealth got outta there. Or how they won't just die off what with suiciders and the fact that they attack everything they see.

But still, while they were constantly telling me how much they wanted to help, I'll admit, they also told me how much they hated the surface. How they hated it and thought that it was a lost cause. It's like Father is bipolar. I'll tell you why that is thought. Shitty, shitty fuckin' writing. God damn. You can make a case for how The Institute hates the surface. But you can just as easily do it for how they want to help it. Because Bethesda wanted their cake and ate it too. They wanted the evil shadowy organization that turned out too be good thing, but they also wanted an evil organization that you can join. And it leads to major contradictions in itself.

E. Raiders DON'T survive in The Commonwealth. They even go over this in Nuka World. Raider gangs in The Commonwealth are started by people who think it would simply be easier to take things like food, instead of working to make it. However, none of these raider gangs have any real plans, and usually only last a few years before getting killed by other raider gangs, super mutants, or destroying themselves by infighting or drugs. There is no long term/old raider gang in The Commonwealth, its just a constant churning of gangs getting destroyed, survivors wandering off to join other gangs or form new gangs, etc. etc.

Yes, but that's the thing. Surely the other raider gangs that killed the other raider gangs would eventually grow in a natural selection kind of way, with one gang growing and growing until they're top dog of the commonwealth. I would suggest that super mutants would do the same, but in bethesda's world they're just dumb orcs with no brains. No Jacobstown for us.

Also, why would a raider base turn into a settlement? Raiders don't trade, they all fight each other, and they started raiding in the first place because they didn't WANT to work on a settlement to make their living. Them becoming a settlement is entirely defeatist to the point of being a raider. That's why raider gangs threaten and attack settlements for food and stuff, so they don't have to do it themselves.

It's actually quite interesting how it works. It works kinda like Caesar's Legion would. They raid and raid to get more and more land. Then eventually when there's no more land to raid they'll be forced to settle down eventually, because there'll be nothing left to raid. And surely the person leading the raider gang would be smart enough too settle down with his gang so that they're long lasting if they survived the commonwealth that long.

It's literally like evolution. Though, I'm sure that in your head it's "No! Raiders are killed by other raiders!" But what about the bigger raiders? "Super mutants!" But what about me? I kill tons of super mutants. Surely a big pack of raiders can take them down. I mean shit, little fuckin' kids could fend off a buncha super mutants in 3. Why not a pack of fully grown smarter adults? Are kids magical?

 

[Greed]

OK.... lemme tell you the train of thought that I believe that they had. "Oh yeah, we're out of the Vault! -> Oh no! We're getting attacked! -> We keep getting attacked out in the wild! ->Oh yeah, now that we have a base we should be safer! -> People seem to keep attacking us. -> At this point it seems safe to just keep killing anyone on our doorstep. -> People seem to've stopped attacking us! It must be from our heavy weaponry scaring them!

Flaw. The Boomers didn't keep getting attacked after reaching Nellis.

OK.... I'm not going to pull the whole "maybe they have it stored down somewhere" card, I'm going to say this: The Boomers never really seemed too interested in their past. As in, it always seemed like that mural and person telling the story was an after thought. I mean, do YOU keep a record of how you moved on your computer? I don't. I just tell the story. It's not like it's vital for survival or anything. It's just a thing. Hell, does ANY of the factions keep a record on a terminal detailing their moving from one location to the other? NO! One because it's stupid, two because Obsidian knew it would be more engaging for a PERSON to tell it to you, without you having to read a wall a text.

That line of thought only creates another plothole though. If they didn't care, then why would they go through the effort of making the rather detailed mural, and making an assigned job of story keeper that they pass on when the last one dies?

1: ..... Well who's to say they didn't just take that? You said other clothes too, right? Well.... can't they just use that to make new jackets?
2: I don't see why they would though. They have perfectly good suits and jackets.
3: Like the other person said, there's not even five generations. Leather is a bit of a sturdy material. I don't see how they would really get the holes. If they were travelers then that might be a question. But they're xenophobes who stay in one location for their entire life.

1. The fact that no one mentions it, and its never seen. You know, things that determine canon in video games?
2. Because their suits would decay.
3. Because they are constantly dealing with caustic chemicals, explosives, and doing hard work trying to fix up an old plane, as well as farming. You know, the things that generally tear through clothes pretty quickly?

OK, lemme see if I got this straight. First there was a form of government, but then it fell apart. So people.... somehow knew about The Institute somehow, and blamed them.... alright. Then..... a Gen 3 synth, which is literally just a person with implants in their brain, was somehow found out as a synth. Guess they found the parts in his head and assumed "SYNTH!" and again, used their psychic knowledge The Institute exists and blamed it on them...... cool, alright.....And so, The entirely safe and sealed up in an underground bunker that you'd practically need a bunker buster bomb to get into Institute, decided that FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY they needed to interfere and replace the few positions of power to keep them divided and domestic so that.... they wouldn't try to find them, even thought it took the reincarnation of Jesus on a death mission to find their kid to get one person there in the first place. Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did miss something, seemingly the whole game. The Institute was involved with the CPG since its start. They worked for several years in trying to get the CPG to form, and spent 4 years trying to prevent it from falling apart. They even had a Gen 1/2 synth as a rep on the CPG counsel. The people of the surface blamed The Institute because, when the shots started going off, The Institute's synth was the last one standing. There's several people, Nick in particular, who explain this to you.

The Institute's top level is only 15 feet below the surface, you could literally dig out the CiT courtyard and find it pretty easy. You don't need a powerful bomb to get in there. Not to mention, as we use in the Minutemen questline, there are other means of getting into The Institute, such as the drainage pipe they use to import water to cool their reactor. The Institute knew people could eventually find a way into their base if they tried, so they did what they could to prevent them from wanting to try.

Also The synth involved in the Broken Mask incident was an early model gen 3's, that was more like Nick then the gen 3's we have today. Its mentioned that, after they filled the synth with bullets, they found gears and wires coming out of him.

Yes, but my point was that Father was making a point of "Look at all the chaos and terror that one synth is causing. We don't want that." It wasn't even linked to the institute, it was just a dude causing chaos. I'll get back too this in a short minute.

It doesn't matter that it wasn't linked to The Institute, all that matters is that it could have been.

OK, so If I also have this correctly, a dude thought that they were being evil so he fucked up the lab and left for radiation land. Then Father decided "Ehh, just dump em on the surface" and left it at that. Even though shooting them in the head and dumping them in one location would've been a better idea. Or burning them. I mean, earlier you were making a point about how they wanted to be kept outta shit, yet they dump fuckin' gajillions of super mutants onto the surface because it's easy?..... Jeez, and a minute ago Father was lecturing me on how one synth will fuck shit up, not knowing that his entire god damn super mutant army is doing way more damage than one raider leader. Because aside from getting his synth back, that's what he was doing. He was showing me how chaos causing they were and that he didn't want that for the surface. I'll get back to this again in a minute.

No? They had been running the FEV experiments for over 100 years, and had been dumping super mutants on the surface the whole time. Its not even something Father started, it was going on for decades before they even kidnapped him. Where did you even get the idea they only started dumping them on the surface after Virgil escaped?

Well, this is contradictory. The entire time I was in The Institute I was told about how they wanted to help the surface, how synths would help everyone. How they wanted what's best for humanity. The whole fetch my synth quest being father showing us that they synths do bad things on the surface and he don't want that. But they release super mutant armies on the surface, and also capture surface dwellers for said super mutant experiments...... But still, while they were constantly telling me how much they wanted to help, I'll admit, they also told me how much they hated the surface. How they hated it and thought that it was a lost cause. It's like Father is bipolar. I'll tell you why that is thought. Shitty, shitty fuckin' writing. God damn. You can make a case for how The Institute hates the surface. But you can just as easily do it for how they want to help it. Because Bethesda wanted their cake and ate it too. They wanted the evil shadowy organization that turned out too be good thing, but they also wanted an evil organization that you can join. And it leads to major contradictions in itself.

Yes, and by humanity they meant THEMSELVES. You are the only person I've met who didn't get that. The Institute constantly tells you about how they are the only hope for humanity's continued existence, how the surface is a lost cause, and how they want to stay in their underground utopia. How difficult is it to do 2 + 2 =4?

On a side note, that lab wasn't that big. I don't see how a literal army of super mutants covering the south of the common wealth got outta there. Or how they won't just die off what with suiciders and the fact that they attack everything they see.

I didn't think I would have to explain this but you do know games are scaled down right? You do know New Reno isn't just 10-15 buildings and 2-3 streets? You do know Diamond City has like 1,000+ people in it, and not just the 60 or so we see ingame?

Yes, but that's the thing. Surely the other raider gangs that killed the other raider gangs would eventually grow in a natural selection kind of way, with one gang growing and growing until they're top dog of the commonwealth. I would suggest that super mutants would do the same, but in bethesda's world they're just dumb orcs with no brains. No Jacobstown for us.

A. That would be true if raider gangs didn't constantly self implode due to things like infighting over drugs and the leader spot.
B. Super Mutants DID achieve that. First is the stated leader of super mutants in The Commonwealth, and Trinity Tower is the super mutant's main base. You can find several notes, and over hear several conversations between super mutants about reporting back to Fist.

It's actually quite interesting how it works. It works kinda like Caesar's Legion would. They raid and raid to get more and more land. Then eventually when there's no more land to raid they'll be forced to settle down eventually, because there'll be nothing left to raid. And surely the person leading the raider gang would be smart enough too settle down with his gang so that they're long lasting if they survived the commonwealth that long.

Two flaws
A. The Legion aren't raiders, nor do they operate like them.
B. The average raider gang doesn't take over land, they don't control it, they don't manage it, because thats work they became raiders to avoid doing. They attack others who do own land, and steal resources from them, so they don't have to do it themselves.
Your entire argument is based on a situation that doesn't exist.

It's literally like evolution. Though, I'm sure that in your head it's "No! Raiders are killed by other raiders!" But what about the bigger raiders? "Super mutants!" But what about me? I kill tons of super mutants. Surely a big pack of raiders can take them down. I mean shit, little fuckin' kids could fend off a buncha super mutants in 3. Why not a pack of fully grown smarter adults? Are kids magical?

A. You are a Gary Stu RPG protagonist, just like every RPG protagonist. Your ability to kill things with great ease does not represent everyone else's ability.
B. The kids in Little Lamplight almost never got attack by super mutants, because kids don't mutate into super mutants correctly, so the super mutants left them alone. Its not hard to defend yourself against someone who basically never attacks you.

 

[DR_LaZer]

Flaw. The Boomers didn't keep getting attacked after reaching Nellis.

Err.... source? Who said that? Was it implied somewhere? Or, is the fact that they don't let anyone even close to their place counting as "didn't keep getting attacked"? I mean, their water supply was cut off at one point by the NCR. I would count that as a form of attack and it certainly wouldn't put them in a positive light.

That line of thought only creates another plothole though. If they didn't care, then why would they go through the effort of making the rather detailed mural, and making an assigned job of story keeper that they pass on when the last one dies?

N-God dammit. You missed my point. It wasn't that they didn't care at all, it's that they don't care about keeping it perfectly preserved. It's probably just a thing they did because the more artsy one of them decided "Hey, I want to make something. But what? Oh! I know! I'll depict our rise from the vaults!" and then he made it, and explained it. I don't know. Why is a mural so important?! Like, this isn't something that affects every single one of them like food or power or water. It's one room that's entire reason to exist is to tell you their history in an interesting way.

1. The fact that no one mentions it, and its never seen. You know, things that determine canon in video games?
2. Because their suits would decay.
3. Because they are constantly dealing with caustic chemicals, explosives, and doing hard work trying to fix up an old plane, as well as farming. You know, the things that generally tear through clothes pretty quickly?

1. Well.... like the other guy said, the vault suit maker is never mentioned in any of the games. Plus, it doesn't exactly disprove the thought that the suits were durable.

2. Yeah, over a long period of time. It has only been like 50 or so years. The Vault Dwellers suit never decayed. Granted, it was tattered up. But that was from the shit he fought like THE Deathclaw and super mutants and giant rats. Aside from those tatters it's never really decayed.

3. Chemicals and explosives, OK. Kinda makes sense even though I would think that if the clothes got damaged so would the person. And considering their nature, they don't exactly seem the kind to have accidental explosions. I'm just sayian. And, I don't see how labor work would tear up clothes. Like, do they rip their clothes with their tools? How does farm work exactly mess up jackets?

Like, how quickly do you rip and tear up your clothes? Do your clothes just spontaneously rip and tear or decay for no reason?

Yes, you did miss something, seemingly the whole game. The Institute was involved with the CPG since its start. They worked for several years in trying to get the CPG to form, and spent 4 years trying to prevent it from falling apart. They even had a Gen 1/2 synth as a rep on the CPG counsel. The people of the surface blamed The Institute because, when the shots started going off, The Institute's synth was the last one standing. There's several people, Nick in particular, who explain this to you.

Oh. You see, from the way you were wording it I got the impression that The Institute had nothing to do with it and people just blamed them "just cause lol" So there was a government that The Institute help make. Then it fell apart, they were blamed then they fucked off. Right. But wait, if it was clear that The Institute were apart of things, then why did they turn into a myth?

They were like the Illuminate. People thought they existed, but it was widely and subconciously believed that they didn't really exist. Like it was all one big consipiracy. That's what the game was giving off. Was it because of the shit they did? Wait, I thought that they sealed themselves off underground since the bombs went off and never really went to the surface.

The Institute's top level is only 15 feet below the surface, you could literally dig out the CiT courtyard and find it pretty easy. You don't need a powerful bomb to get in there. Not to mention, as we use in the Minutemen questline, there are other means of getting into The Institute, such as the drainage pipe they use to import water to cool their reactor. The Institute knew people could eventually find a way into their base if they tried, so they did what they could to prevent them from wanting to try.

But, if they knew that they could get in that way then why didn't they guard it? W-why fuck the entire surface when they could've just booby trapped it? Like, I can think of a gazillion ways to keep that pipe safe. Like, the logical thought process of a normal human being is "this is a vulnerability I KNOW about. Therefore I should fix that." That's a simple logical thought process. Not "This is vulnerable, therefore I should completely fuck with every one else on the surface so they won't even get a chance to touch the vulnerability while still not fixing it."

Also, there's like a layer of metal in between the surface and top layer. I think. I can be wrong on that part. And the reason why I said that they'd need a bunker buster is because the BoS literally used that but with a giant robot instead of a bomb. And even then, 15 feet is a lot of digging. Why didn't they seal up the top layer that they weren't using with like dirt or concrete? That would give them a lot more protection.

It doesn't matter that it wasn't linked to The Institute, all that matters is that it could have been.

And THAT doesn't matter, because father's still all like "but this is being a problem for humans. Look at the destruction he caused for everyone. We need to put a stop to all of this."

No? They had been running the FEV experiments for over 100 years, and had been dumping super mutants on the surface the whole time. Its not even something Father started, it was going on for decades before they even kidnapped him. Where did you even get the idea they only started dumping them on the surface after Virgil escaped?

My mistake, I was giving them more credit than they deserved. You see, I assumed that up until that point they were smart and you know, didn't leave live super mutants to fuck with the surface. So, what they did was start turning people into super mutants for HUNDREDS OF YEARS and dump them on the surface when they were done with them? Yes? HUNDREDS of years? And this was the easiest of ways to despose of them? Not too, I dunno, kill them then dump them on the surface? OR kill them then burn them? Can you and them not see how easier and simpler everything would be for them if they just killed the mutants before dumping them?

And if you're wondering why I thought that the super mutant dumping thing was recent, I thought the whole "kidnap people and replace them with synths" was so they COULD take away people to dip them.

Yes, and by humanity they meant THEMSELVES. You are the only person I've met who didn't get that. The Institute constantly tells you about how they are the only hope for humanity's continued existence, how the surface is a lost cause, and how they want to stay in their underground utopia. How difficult is it to do 2 + 2 =4?

Sorry my friend. I had better writing in mind. You see, I didn't assume that they meant that because, well, that might as well be The Enclave. Seriously, I gave Bethesda too much credit and assumed that they didn't just do The Enclave again. But, silly silly silly me. THEY DID! They made a xenophobic main faction who does things in the shadows, and even tests on people without them knowing it, while having them think that they are the last hope for humanity while thinking that the surface is entirely pointless and a lost cause.

And, they did it twice. What with the BoS turning into a buncha purists who determine what is and isn't human and want to completely obliterate anything that's not human. Really, it's just two parts of The Enclave split into two different factions. The xenophobia and belief that they're the only hope left for mankind, and the nutty "kill all heretics!" side. Truly a masterpiece of writing.

Even my hopes and dreams of them doing something kinda different, where they have the whole "shadowy organization that looks evil but really wants to help out the wasteland and everyone in it" thing was in vain and doomed from the start.

A. That would be true if raider gangs didn't constantly self implode due to things like infighting over drugs and the leader spot.
B. Super Mutants DID achieve that. First is the stated leader of super mutants in The Commonwealth, and Trinity Tower is the super mutant's main base. You can find several notes, and over hear several conversations between super mutants about reporting back to Fist.

But again, it's survival of the fittest. Eventually there WILL be one gang that does have a leader set there. Eventually one gang will have a whole deal going where there is a leader.

Kinda hard to listen to conversations when they shoot on sight. And notes are the most boring thing on the planet. Why couldn't they be an actual faction that I could talk too? Super Mutants are still people. They have the same problem that raiders and gunners do. They SAY that they have a base or are organized or whatever, but they still shoot on sight no matter what. You disgrace the memory of Marcus.

Two flaws
A. The Legion aren't raiders, nor do they operate like them.
B. The average raider gang doesn't take over land, they don't control it, they don't manage it, because thats work they became raiders to avoid doing. They attack others who do own land, and steal resources from them, so they don't have to do it themselves.
Your entire argument is based on a situation that doesn't exist.

First of all, I said LIKE the Legion. Meaning it has the same basic idea. Raid and raid until you get a foothold then start to settle down.

No, no, no. Think of it this way. They have a main raider base. Where else are they going to sleep? Then they raid and raid and raid. Then they find a place that they think is neat and want to also have it for their own. And of course a lot of them would adapt the thought process of "hey, this is raider territory. You better piss of before we shoot you." And of course, the longer the raiders last, the more people they get. The more people they get, the more mouths they need to feed to boss man can stay in his comfy position of power.

So then they raid a farm place and they're all like "hey, average bob, if you do farming for us we won't kill you and we'll even give you protection." then they have a farm going on. They're starting to settle. Then they stop being raiders and eventually turn into a settlement. Of course not EVERY raider would do this, but it's an eventuality that's bound to happen in the wasteland. It can go differently, but the general idea will still eventually happen.

But no, you're just gonna say "Buh raiders dun do that!" and just completely dismiss the whole thing, forgetting that humans aren't all the same! And like Gage there are some raiders out there who have bigger ideals than sitting in a ruin smoking crack for the rest of their lives! BAH!

A. You are a Gary Stu RPG protagonist, just like every RPG protagonist. Your ability to kill things with great ease does not represent everyone else's ability.
B. The kids in Little Lamplight almost never got attack by super mutants, because kids don't mutate into super mutants correctly, so the super mutants left them alone. Its not hard to defend yourself against someone who basically never attacks you.

Well, not exactly. I mean, most all the characters in all the games have their own special stats and skills to go along with it. Like Frank Fucking Horrigan who had a 10 in every SPECIAL. Really, you're just a person who's going the distance. Though I will admit your character in 4 is the Anti-Christ. But even then, you know what DOES represent everyone elses ability to kill with ease? Your companions. Or random NPCs fighting. They can kill things. And I bet if the AI wasn't so trash they could do better. I mean, Diamond City seemed to be holding up well against the Super Mutant army. Just sayian.

And that don't make a lick of sense Daaaavy. The orcs in 3 were shown to be insane savages who have god damn bags of guts and flesh around because savage. I don't see why they don't just kill them for fun. It's going completely out of character for the orc race.

 

[CerberusGate]

Snip

Great write-up reply against deluded old Greed there.

I have a feeling it'll misconstrue everything you are saying and continue badmouthing New Vegas (and the other Fallout games) to make its beloved Failout 4 look good in comparison. Already it has called other posters as liars for proving it wrong and has deliberately ignored points by others repeatedly while refusing to concede if it makes mistakes.

My advice (feel free to ignore it if you don't want it): Ignore Greed. It's deluded beyond redemption and a sore loser as you may tell from how desperately it nitpicks on the same points (that people have addressed). You'd be better off spending your time ignoring this deluded troll.

 

[DR_LaZer]

Great write-up reply against deluded old Greed there.

I have a feeling it'll misconstrue everything you are saying and continue badmouthing New Vegas (and the other Fallout games) to make its beloved Failout 4 look good in comparison. Already it has called other posters as liars for proving it wrong and has deliberately ignored points by others repeatedly while refusing to concede if it makes mistakes.

My advice (feel free to ignore it if you don't want it): Ignore Greed. It's deluded beyond redemption and a sore loser as you may tell from how desperately it nitpicks on the same points (that people have addressed). You'd be better off spending your time ignoring this deluded troll.

Oh yeah, I kinda guessed it a while ago that it's one of those types that never really change their mind at all whatsoever no matter the circumstance, therefore making my debate entirely pointless. I'm honestly just doing this for fun and will probably stop and "give up" when I get bored. And thank you BTW.

 

[CerberusGate]

And now the spam-bots are posting on actual threads. I guess they are evolving even more.

(Context once the spambot post gets deleted: A dietary supplement spam link was posted here just now.)

 

[Crossfire]

I like how it just gives training and nutrition advice and then leaves its link almost as an after thought.

 

[Greed]

snip

In order to reset this massive quote wall

1. Everything you said about raiders has already happened, it's called Nuka World's raider gangs. The Operators, Pack, and Disciples, raider clans came together under the overboss Colter to do exactly what you describe. They go over to farming settlements, use force to take them over, and them subjugate them into their raider protectorate that is centered around Nuka World. I assumed you already knew this. Not to mention we see this happen in The Pitt in Fallout 3 as well. Ashur controls a raider/savaer operation stretching hundreds of miles from Toronto down to D.C.


2.
A. Super Mutants are not people. Super Mutants were people, but the FEV changed them, physically, and mentally. Hence why super mutants have achieved a working communist society, while all human attempts at one have failed miserably.
B. Super Mutants have no reason to want to talk or interact with anyone else, especially due to their quasi-insanity. Outside of really rare exceptions like Strong, Fawkes, and Uncle Leo, who are noted to be abnormal.
C. If you stopped running in, guns blazing, at every encounter, you might actually have them live long enough to hear what they have to say.
D. They shoot on sight for the same reason any halfway sane Super Mutant or Gunner would. Anyone who sees a heavily armed/armored person walking up to what is clearly marked as their territory would logically assume that person is there to do them harm, as any sane person would look at the markers and go "ohh, better stay away from this place since its owned by someone!" Riders shoot on sight because thats literally their whole existence, killing anyone who isn't them, and taking their stuff. Did you complain that the Jackals, Vipers, and Fiends shot on sight in NV? Would you complain if someone shot you after you wandered onto their lawn despite them having a "no trespassing" sign?
E. Super mutants haven't made a large scale attack against Diamond City since 2180, and Diamond City needed the help of the Minutemen to hold them off. And your companions aren't normal people, hence why they are your companions. Their ability to kill stuff isn't a reasonable measure. Marcus in Fallout 2 had a small armies worth of bullets in him, and he was still alive and kicking. Super Mutants on the east coast have thicker skin, and stronger constitutions. While it may be easy to take them down in-game due to gameplay, Super Mutants, in lore, are like walking freight trains. No average person, or even a small group of average people, has the ability to take a group of super mutants out. Only heavily armed/armored people like The BoS are capable of doing so with any real level of success, and even they struggle with it at times due to the super mutant's power. Even The Institute's coursers, literal terminators who are stronger/faster then any normal man are told to stay away from super mutants. Gameplay =/= lore.
F. The Super Mutants in Fallout 3 had gore bags everywhere because they ate people(among other things) for food, and that's what they kept their food in. Something they mention several times. Kids aren't very large, and wouldn't provide much food. Which would make going after them for that rather pointless.


3.
A. The Institute was never a myth. Where did you get that idea from? Everyone in The Commonwealth knows, for a fact, The Institute exists. They just have no idea where its located. The only "myth" part about them is what they are doing/what their goals are since they work in the shadows, and thus, no one knows what is or isn't the work of The Institute, leaving everyone to wonder if whatever accident or w/e was caused by The Institute or not.
B. The Institute DID guard the tunnel. There is a fake wall, with a passworded door, several turrets, some ghouls, mole rats, and finally some synths near the actual tubes hatch.
C. Because the top floor is where the teleporter is, they can't seal off the top floor without losing access to the teleporter. But even then, they are able to lock down the main elevator and force people to go through the "Old robotics" area that was part of the pre-war CiT, which they have filled with synths and laser turrets.
D. Father says that because Gabriel is a synth, and if people found out, they would blame The Institute for it. He is saying "look at all this destruction this guy caused, we don't want to get blamed for that. So go and bring him back here!" Also, while they don't care about helping the people of the surface, they aren't totally apathetic to them. If retrieving the synth means the surfacers don't have to deal with that raider boss anymore.... then win/win.
E. No, The Institute was turning people into super mutants and releasing them on the surface for 100 years, not hundreds. I don't know why you felt the need to use such hyperbole. Also, due to how much it takes to actually kill a super mutant, wasting that much ammo on killing literally thousands upon thousands of super mutants would be a massive waste of resources, on a group already stretched very thin on resources. Its simply far easier, and more resource efficient, to just drop them on the surface. Its not like the Super Mutants can bother them.
F. The replacing of people was done so they could spy on the surface, and watch out for possible threats. The Institute has only replaced like 3-4 people in the whole game, and the people they replaced were simply killed. The kidnappings in general though are so they can gas people. The Institute does not dip people, much like V87, they gas them with FEV.
G. The Enclave wanted to purge literally all life on the planet that wasn't them. The Institute just wants to be left alone, and has made no effort to PURGE EVERYTHING! despite the fact they could easily teleport hundreds of synths into Diamond City and kill everyone if they really wanted. The Enclave never tired to help the people of the surface, they hated them simply for being different. The Institute did in fact try, and their hatred is actually based on past experience of surfacers being idiots. They really aren't that similar unless you ignore all the context behind their actions. One could make many things sound similar if you boiled them down like you did.
H. Trying to help the surfacers wouldn't be good writing, in fact, it would be pretty abysmal writing. The entire point of Fallout is that "war, war never changes", that humans have endlessly destroyed themselves, and their civilizations, over the same petty reasons throughout time. The entire point of Fallout is that civilization doesn't, and can't work. Even New Vegas shows us this with its near constant doomsaying over how all the flaws of groups like the NCR, Legion, and House, are going to cause them to fail for the same reason pre-war governments using the same systems failed. Helping the people of the surface is 100% pointless because it's all going to come crashing down anyways, as history has shown time and time again. The Institute are one of the incredibly few groups in Fallout lore that seem to have realized that, and not persued something they know is doomed to fail. I would rather not have yet another bunch of idiots blind to the folly of their actions. We got enough of those in the NCR, Legion, House, and all the various forms of BoS. The fact that they are different in that regard is actually rather refreshing.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

The entire point of Fallout is that civilization doesn't, and can't work.

That's not the point of Fallout.

 

[CerberusGate]

The entire point of Fallout is that "war, war never changes", that humans have endlessly destroyed themselves, and their civilizations, over the same petty reasons throughout time. The entire point of Fallout is that civilization doesn't, and can't work.

Looks like somebody got the wrong idea about Fallout (or the most immature idea of it). War may never change but men can. It's why there is a profound subversion of the arc words of Fallout in Lonesome Road that reflects this idea which can be found in the sentiments of various in-game characters.

New Vegas shows that it is possible for things to change (2 went out its way to bring up the idea and I think it was a good idea, even if Tim's original plan for the setting is for it to get worse). The post-War world may be filled with problems and hazards but the common man perseveres on to make it a better place and even acknowledges the possibility and its dangers rather than let it all fall apart again. Civilization (even the ones that do not match modern civilization like tribals and the Legion, something that Greed obviously can't comprehend with its tiny troll mind) can emerge and develop in time while having people that want to keep it alive (even if people want to sabotage it). The Legion, NCR and places of influence like a possible Vegas state (or the Divide, pre-nuking) show that it is possible to make something more in the setting as groups in an area may come together (or be forced together).

Also, isn't the fact that the Institute kept the Commonwealth separate on purpose shows that civilization could have formed in the Commonwealth rather than there being no hope for civilization? And if you attempt to cite the failed attempts, note that the people are still open to that idea by the time 4 comes along. Look how the settlements seem to be alright with being under Minutemen jurisdiction. Given time and elimination of the Institute (along with the BoS), I'm sure the provisional government will be appear again.

Meaning, no: Civilization can work in the setting, it's just lazy writing (or immature ideas from incompetent writers) that gets in the way. And if you cite Avellone, remember that he is not the only one in charge of writing Fallout, guys like J.E Sawyer are there as well to argue against Avellone's interpretations like a proper writing team should. After all, it's open to interpretation.

 

[DR_LaZer]

1. Everything you said about raiders has already happened, it's called Nuka World's raider gangs. The Operators, Pack, and Disciples, raider clans came together under the overboss Colter to do exactly what you describe. They go over to farming settlements, use force to take them over, and them subjugate them into their raider protectorate that is centered around Nuka World. I assumed you already knew this. Not to mention we see this happen in The Pitt in Fallout 3 as well. Ashur controls a raider/savaer operation stretching hundreds of miles from Toronto down to D.C.

Exactly! But what I propose is: Why hasn't this happened in the main location Commonwealth?! Why hasn't someone in the Commonwealth do what Gage did?! Why isn't there a more civil kind of raiders who don't just kill on sight!? I'm not saying ALL of them should be like this, but there should be more than just one fucking faction in a separate DLC that's overpriced at 20$! That shit should be in the Commonwealth default!

A. Super Mutants are not people. Super Mutants were people, but the FEV changed them, physically, and mentally. Hence why super mutants have achieved a working communist society, while all human attempts at one have failed miserably.

God I hate you so much right now. You completely missed the idea of Super Mutants. You disgrace all that Marcus and Jacob ever stood for. You disgrace the entire Super Mutant race as a whole. They are people. I know Bethesda is to brain dead to get that, but it's true. From the very start Super Mutants were just buffed up humans. Sure, there were some dumber than others. But that was from improper dipping. With proper dipping Super Mutants were pretty much better in every way to humans. If they weren't sterile that is. But still, they are people. They have feelings like people. They make mistakes like people. They are people too. Say it with me everyone, Super Mutant Lives Matter.

B. Super Mutants have no reason to want to talk or interact with anyone else, especially due to their quasi-insanity. Outside of really rare exceptions like Strong, Fawkes, and Uncle Leo, who are noted to be abnormal.

Nor do they have a reason too instantly shoot at some random unarmed stranger on sight. Also, Super Mutants being intelligent past savage levels is not RARE! Most Super Mutants are extremely smart save for a few not so smart ones. NOW! Orcs on the other hand. Orcs are completely different. While Orcs may look a lot like Super Mutants, they actually are nothing like them on a mental level. They are extremely retarded. I will admit.

I'll cut the bullshit. Bethesda don't know how to do Super Mutants. That's my point.

C. If you stopped running in, guns blazing, at every encounter, you might actually have them live long enough to hear what they have to say.

I don't go in guns blazing though. I walk up to them with my gun holstered. Then they shoot at me. Then I shoot back. Though after a while the mindset kinda set in for me and I did go in guns blazing after 150 hours because I knew that nothing different was going to happen. And if something different was going to happen, the game would stop me.

They shoot on sight for the same reason any halfway sane Super Mutant or Gunner would. Anyone who sees a heavily armed/armored person walking up to what is clearly marked as their territory would logically assume that person is there to do them harm, as any sane person would look at the markers and go "ohh, better stay away from this place since its owned by someone!" Riders shoot on sight because thats literally their whole existence, killing anyone who isn't them, and taking their stuff. Did you complain that the Jackals, Vipers, and Fiends shot on sight in NV? Would you complain if someone shot you after you wandered onto their lawn despite them having a "no trespassing" sign?

First of all, my character has a no weapons or armor. Just a vault suit and their fists. Stop assuming my character.

Secondly, where's the markings that it's their territory? I never saw anything of the sort. Do you mean the bags of gore? Because that doesn't exactly seem to say "hey this is super mutant territory, stay out." more screams "I PUT THIS PERSONS BODY PARTS IN A BAG!"

And, well for one the Jackals, Vipers, and Fiends were named. It wasn't like it was just "raider" and I didn't know what I was in for. Those guys are known raiders. Plus, they aren't actually literally everywhere on the map. I don't walk half a mile and find a new Viper Encampment. So it's less irritating. That's why I'm not as bothered by them in NV. Because they aren't over used to the point where I ask "Wait, if everyone is raiders, who are they raiding?"

E. Super mutants haven't made a large scale attack against Diamond City since 2180, and Diamond City needed the help of the Minutemen to hold them off. And your companions aren't normal people, hence why they are your companions. Their ability to kill stuff isn't a reasonable measure. Marcus in Fallout 2 had a small armies worth of bullets in him, and he was still alive and kicking.

Super Mutants on the east coast have thicker skin, and stronger constitutions. While it may be easy to take them down in-game due to gameplay, Super Mutants, in lore, are like walking freight trains. No average person, or even a small group of average people, has the ability to take a group of super mutants out. Only heavily armed/armored people like

The BoS are capable of doing so with any real level of success, and even they struggle with it at times due to the super mutant's power. Even The Institute's coursers, literal terminators who are stronger/faster then any normal man are told to stay away from super mutants. Gameplay =/= lore.

Then, what was that while deal that happened as I arrived at Diamond City where a buncha super mutants were attacking the front gates and they were shooting them down? That seems like an attack to me.

But, Piper is a normal person. She's some random chick who writes and has a pistol. There's nothing really special about her. Granted, she can't die because Bethesda is made by a buncha brain dead goldfish, but she still kinda shoots them like a random person would. She takes damage like a normal person would.

*Orcs. Fixed it for ya. But still, in like Fallout 1/2 it was pretty realistic as to how tanky super mutants were. They were stronger, but a few bullets too the head is still a few bullets too the head. Which is a big problem the 3D Fallouts always had.

Hey, why don't I bring out your favorite card of Gameplay =/= Lore!? Like, bullets to the head are extremely lethal and things aren't bullet sponges. And the only things that should have bullet proof heads are things like Deathclaws?! And, a small group of people CAN take down a group of super mutants. it's happen. Fallout 1/2 happened. Your character was always just some guy who just went the distance.

F. The Super Mutants in Fallout 3 had gore bags everywhere because they ate people(among other things) for food, and that's what they kept their food in. Something they mention several times. Kids aren't very large, and wouldn't provide much food. Which would make going after them for that rather pointless.

Can you point me to the part where it says directly that they do that? I would very much like to see evidence for myself!

A. The Institute was never a myth. Where did you get that idea from? Everyone in The Commonwealth knows, for a fact, The Institute exists. They just have no idea where its located. The only "myth" part about them is what they are doing/what their goals are since they work in the shadows, and thus, no one knows what is or isn't the work of The Institute, leaving everyone to wonder if whatever accident or w/e was caused by The Institute or not.

Well sonny, I picked up on something I keep forgetting Bethesda knows nothing about "subtly" and knowing previously used "tropes" Plus, I'll be completely honest. I just assumed the trope and moved on what with how absolutely bored I was. Even trying to remember it is dulling me.

No, The Institute was turning people into super mutants and releasing them on the surface for 100 years, not hundreds. I don't know why you felt the need to use such hyperbole. Also, due to how much it takes to actually kill a super mutant, wasting that much ammo on killing literally thousands upon thousands of super mutants would be a massive waste of resources, on a group already stretched very thin on resources. Its simply far easier, and more resource efficient, to just drop them on the surface. Its not like the Super Mutants can bother them.

First of all, I don't see why you need to nit pick like that. My point still stands. They were doing it for an insane amount of time.

Also, it would not take a lot to kill a super mutant in closed conditions. I don't see why they would need to use bullets. Just fry his brain then throw him in the incinerator. Or drown them! Or cut their heads off. They're not made of metal. Even then, I'm sure that they can cut metal. And if they're so concerned with being blamed for things, THEN WHY DID THEY UNLEASH AN ARMY ON THE SURFACE!?!? That's the biggest "We're fucking your lives to hell and back" sticker you can put on someone!

F. The replacing of people was done so they could spy on the surface, and watch out for possible threats. The Institute has only replaced like 3-4 people in the whole game, and the people they replaced were simply killed. The kidnappings in general though are so they can gas people. The Institute does not dip people, much like V87, they gas them with FEV.

Oh!? Guess I got the wrong impression again. What with the mass paranoia I thought that the replacing was a common thing! Silly me! I don't exactly see why there's a mass histeria over the possibility of being replaced. I mean, the only time I remember them finding out a Gen 3ish synth was the broken mask incident, and they weren't exactly replacing anyone, he was just a synth that looked like a person who up and killed someone. But ehh! Jusduntinkabootit! And gassing sounds stupid. Fuck gassing. Dipping is cool. It's menacing.

G. The Enclave wanted to purge literally all life on the planet that wasn't them. The Institute just wants to be left alone, and has made no effort to PURGE EVERYTHING! despite the fact they could easily teleport hundreds of synths into Diamond City and kill everyone if they really wanted. The Enclave never tired to help the people of the surface, they hated them simply for being different. The Institute did in fact try, and their hatred is actually based on past experience of surfacers being idiots. They really aren't that similar unless you ignore all the context behind their actions. One could make many things sound similar if you boiled them down like you did.

N-Oh my-Fucking hell. Did you miss the entire part where I said that the BoS was their genocidal side?! Where they were going on about purging all that wasn't human!? And that The Institute was the side that worked in secret preforming experiments on everyone without them knowing and thought that they were the last hope for humanity!?

Did you miss the part where I said that they're just a copy of one PART of The Enclave!? It's not boiling down, it's saying exactly what they are! They're shadowy and xenophobic, like The Enclave. They think they're the last hope for humanity, like The Enclave. They preform tests on people in secret, LIKE THE ENCLAVE! But the BoS harbor their genocidal side where they go off killing Orcs and Synths because they're not human and abominations. It's all basic ideas I'm drawing parallels to. That they're reusing the idea of a xenophobic shadowy organization that thinks that they're the best hope for humanity. I could go on all day about the differences between The Enclave and The Institute on a detail level. GOD!

H. Trying to help the surfacers wouldn't be good writing, in fact, it would be pretty abysmal writing. The entire point of Fallout is that "war, war never changes", that humans have endlessly destroyed themselves, and their civilizations, over the same petty reasons throughout time. The entire point of Fallout is that civilization doesn't, and can't work.

NO! You absolute silly goose. The entire POINT of Fallout is exploring what happens AFTER the apocalypse and how humans adapt to it. That all of our problems are BECAUSE of us and we have to deal with it. Not that civilizations won't work. It's that civilization WILL work even after nuclear hell fire. And even if I got that wrong, it's for ABSOLUTELY SURE NOT that civilizations won't work.

Even New Vegas shows us this with its near constant doomsaying over how all the flaws of groups like the NCR, Legion, and House, are going to cause them to fail for the same reason pre-war governments using the same systems failed. Helping the people of the surface is 100% pointless because it's all going to come crashing down anyways, as history has shown time and time again. The Institute are one of the incredibly few groups in Fallout lore that seem to have realized that, and not persued something they know is doomed to fail. I would rather not have yet another bunch of idiots blind to the folly of their actions. We got enough of those in the NCR, Legion, House, and all the various forms of BoS. The fact that they are different in that regard is actually rather refreshing.

Actually the point of the factions having FLAWS is because that's good writing and gives us a choice that CAN be right, where it isn't black and white. Granted they do have a bit of a pre-planned narrative set out, but still. No faction is the perfect faction. They all have ups and downs and depending on what you morally think is right you can help the wasteland.

And I don't exactly find it refreshing. I just kinda see it as them saying "WE WILL IN ALMOST ENTIRELY NO WAY AFFECT THE SURFACE SO EVERYTHING WE DO IS ENTIRELY POINTLESS IN THE LONG RUN!" Which seems, well, pointless.

 

[CerberusGate]

And I don't exactly find it refreshing. I just kinda see it as them saying "WE WILL IN ALMOST ENTIRELY NO WAY AFFECT THE SURFACE SO EVERYTHING WE DO IS ENTIRELY POINTLESS IN THE LONG RUN!"

It's also quite a defeatist attitude to take. I mean, I lost whatever regard or concern I had left for Shaun (I had lost regard for the brat when the predictable 'twist' shows up and when he became a Macguffin to find for contrived cliched reasons) when he took one look at the surface and immediately gave up on life on it.

Considering how people have tried to get by and the success some on the surface has, his callous and uneducated dismissal of life on the surface (and the effort to live out in the Wasteland) came across as rather immature and foolish as he decides to judge the surface at its face value (kinda like Greed up there but it's opinions don't matter here so I'm not concerned about it). After that part, I wanted to smack the little brat in the back of his head to educate the brat on how uneducated and baseless his opinion was since the brat was supposed to be the Sole Survivor's brat.

Shooting him in the head with a Gauss Riffle was a small consolation though it left me feeling like this:

 

[Greed]

snip.

1. Because most raiders have no long term planning, and get destroyed by other raider clans, or by internal fighting. It takes someone smart, and with a very rare type of charisma, to be able to get a whole bunch of raider clans to come together, and not have the whole thing shit itself. Also, if raiders stopped shooting at people on sight, then they wouldn't really be raiders anymore. The whole point of raiders is that they kill everyone who isn't them, and take their stuff. Its exactly like the Fiends, Vipers, and Jackals in New Vegas. The only people raiders have any reason to not shoot are people who deliver drugs, like how the Fiends work with the Khans, and how the raiders work with the Triggermen.

And just for clarification, The Commonwealth refers to the entire post-war state of Massachusetts, not just the area we explore in the box. Nuka World is still in The Commonwealth. The Nuka World raider gangs are Commonwealth raider gangs.

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

3. Except orcs are pretty smart, both in Warcraft, and TES, Orcs have a very developed culture. Your entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation. It also doesn't make any sense because, as you so like to say, not everyone is the same. There are groups of people hostile to everyone else IRL, just like there are groups of people who want to deal with everyone else IRL.

4. I manage to avoid getting shot, and hearing them talk about things just fine. This stuff is gold.

5.
A. At that point you're just an idiot with an easy to steal pipboy.
B. Did you miss all the stuff like the Gunner's skull symbols, the raider's totems, and the super mutant's gore bags, cooking pots, and other stuff? Its pretty easy to spot territory from some distance out.
C. Raiders raid people like the Abernathys, the Slog, Covenant, Warwick Homestead, Finch Farm, Greygarden, and all the other pre-existing settlements. Several raider gangs also accept bribes from Bunker Hill to not attack trader caravans, and get caps from them.

6.
A. That was all of 5-6 super mutants, and 1-2 dogs, and the Diamond City Guards get their asses kicked unless you help. That's not an attack, thats a band of super mutants walking too close to DC and getting in a fight.
B. Again, gameplay =/= lore
C. Making comparisons to how easy it was to take down Super Mutants in Fallout 1/2 ignores the fact these aren't the same kind of super mutants. Nice false equivalence.

7. Yes, its called the "Big Trouble in Big town" quest. You have to go rescue Red and Shorty from Super Mutants in Germantown, and you find shorty tied up in a kitchen, with gore bags everywhere, and the super mutant holding him talks about eating him.

8. You are the only person I have honestly ever met that believed people thought The Institute was 100% myth. Not even people on 4chan have ever stated as such.

9. Look around The Institute, where do you see the giant industrial sized saws needed to cut a super mutant's head off? Where do you see the big ass electric chair needed to fry their brains? Where do you see a big ass incinerator needed to dispose of the body? They don't have that. Also, most surfacers don't know where the super mutants come from. Hell, it revealed during the BoS questline, and during the memory sequence with Kellogg, that the FEV program is a top secret program not even people like Doctor Li, one of the four division heads, knows about.

10. Apparently so. Replacing people isn't that common, the whole narrative point of the wastelanders paranoia was that they are making things up, and seeing stuff that isn't there, and that 90% of the things they believe The Institute is doing aren't actually happening. Though there are a few times when one of the few Institute replacements do get caught, such as the guy in Goodneighbor who gets killed when you go there.

11. Except the BoS have no intent to purge everything that isn't human. The only things they purge are feral ghouls, supermutants, and synths. The first two are nothing but hostile to everyone that isn't them. And their hatred of synths is justified given how synths are used. The BoS has no problem with non-feral ghouls, and takes no action against them, because they can exist as part of normal cooperative society. Danse even commends the ghouls at The Slog, and Teagan, can ask you to make a deal with them for supplies. Even after the BoS can take over Mass Fusion, which is a stones throw from Goodneighbor, but take no action against the non-ferals there.

Also, by that logic Big MT. is nothing but another Enclave as well. Shadowy organization that kidnaps people and does experiments on them, believe they are the best things in existence, and that everyone else is nothing but a test subject for them. See, its easily to reduce most everything into the same basic elements if you ignore context.

NO! You absolute silly goose. The entire POINT of Fallout is exploring what happens AFTER the apocalypse and how humans adapt to it. That all of our problems are BECAUSE of us and we have to deal with it. Not that civilizations won't work. It's that civilization WILL work even after nuclear hell fire. And even if I got that wrong, it's for ABSOLUTELY SURE NOT that civilizations won't work.

Yes, Fallout is about exploring what happens after the apocalypse. Specifically, how people end up making the same mistakes of the past. That is why every Fallout game has started with basically the same intro, and the MQs all deal with people or groups doing the exact same dumb things as the pre-war world did, such as falling into trappings of racism, xenophobia, and wars over resources, and screwing up their lives for it.

That is the whole point of the Fallout 1 -> 2 -> NV narrative arc, showing how civilization develops from tribals, to city states, to developed nations that eventually come into contact with other developed nations, and war with them over resources, and ideologies, only to destroy themselves for the same reasons the pre-war nations destroyed themselves.

That is the whole point behind "war, war never changes", it's the reason why Sawyer wrote in all that stuff in NV, and why Avellone wanted the "nuke everyone" end of Lonesome Road to be canon. The whole point is that this shit CANNOT succeed because humans cannot overcome their petty problems, and desires to fight everyone for stupid shit.

It's an endless cycle of creation and destruction spanning back to the begining of mankind. The NCR cannot last, The Legion cannot last, House cannot last, the MWBoS cannot last. Civilization, in all its forms, cannot last, because humans are too stupid and petty to make it work out.

Its the whole message Fallout was designed to get across. "See all this terrible stuff we do and hos it ended up screwing us over? Terrible ain't it!"

Actually the point of the factions having FLAWS is because that's good writing and gives us a choice that CAN be right, where it isn't black and white. Granted they do have a bit of a pre-planned narrative set out, but still. No faction is the perfect faction. They all have ups and downs and depending on what you morally think is right you can help the wasteland.

And I don't exactly find it refreshing. I just kinda see it as them saying "WE WILL IN ALMOST ENTIRELY NO WAY AFFECT THE SURFACE SO EVERYTHING WE DO IS ENTIRELY POINTLESS IN THE LONG RUN!" Which seems, well, pointless.

And The Institute has flaws, they are a bunch of xenophobes who care little about anyone but themselves, and have generally abandoned humanity on the surface. On the flip side, they have achieved a level of technology unlike anyone else, and have developed a self sustained quasi-utopian paradise that will likely outlast any civilization on the surface.

Its only pointless if you try to make it out to where the surface is the only place that matters. all that matters is mankind's survival, be it on the surface, under the earth, or in the stars.

 

[Jogre]

The whole point of raiders is that they kill everyone who isn't them, and take their stuff

Erm...No it isn't.

Are you forgetting in Fallout 1 how the Khans happily let others in to there base to negotiate, as well as demanding ransom for hostages?

Raiders are just people who Raid, they don't nescessarily shoot everyone indiscriminately.

Its exactly like the Fiends

Except that you can actually, with a high enough speech, walk in to The Fiend's base unharmed, and speak to there leader.

And what about Powder Gangers? They don't bother random travelers, but still take down caravans passing through the area, they still count as Raiders.

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

You are missing the point entirely.

The point is that Supermutants were always presented as being people, with thoughts and feelings. They were by no means evil, just brainwashed creatures that had to serve under a creature who they believed to be a God.

They were by no means dumb, evil savages who attack people for no reason.

Bethesda's Supermutants are only superficially similar to those Supermutants. They aren't presented as soldiers in an army, or creatures trying to get along with human culture, they are presented as being big, dumb, ogres.

Why do they attach the name Super-mutants to them, when they have none of the charm or history associated with the original super-mutants, and only superficial similarities?

3. Except orcs are pretty smart, both in Warcraft, and TES, Orcs have a very developed culture

Except that Warcraft and TES do not make up the entire of the fantasy genre.

our entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation.

But they aren't trying anything new by making Supermutants big, dumb creatures that shoot on sight. They are just creating another generic enemy.

New Creatures and Factions are only interesting, if you can actually interact with them. Making them generic mobs which appear everywhere is incredibly boring.

B. Again, gameplay =/= lore

Good RPGs build there gameplay around the lore, not the other way around.

Look around The Institute, where do you see the giant industrial sized saws needed to cut a super mutant's head off? Where do you see the big ass electric chair needed to fry their brains? Where do you see a big ass incinerator needed to dispose of the body?

So what you are saying is that the supposedly most technologically advanced faction in the wasteland(Apart from pretty much every other faction ever), doesn't have access to any machinery capable of killing a Supermutant?

they have achieved a level of technology unlike anyone else

(Apart from The Enclave, The Brotherhood and The Shi)

 

[Greed]

Raiders

Raiders in Fallout 4 negotiate for hostages as well. They just aren't stupid enough to let you into their base like only a moron would do. Which is probably why the Khans in Fallout 1 were canonally killed down to one man.

Right, and raiding involves, you know raiding people, by going up to them, and using force to take their things. They don't outright kill farmers and the like, since they need those people alive so they can keep raiding their farmsteads, but a random idiot walking down the street? Why bother keeping him alive? its easier to just shoot them.

And you can speak to the raider gangs in Nuka World

A. Powder Gangers are not raiders.
B. Powder Gangers are, easily, one of the most poorly written factions in New Vegas, and I could write a small novel about how everything they do makes no sense.

Super Mutants

And Super Mutants in Fallout 4 have thoughts and feelings. They have established leadership, a functional communist society among themselves, and show clear sadness over the deaths of their friends/family members/pets.

Also, they don't attack people for no reason. Super Mutants in Fallout 3 attack people for food, and to take them to V87 to turn them into super mutants. Super Mutants in Fallout 4 do it for much of the same, for food, and for revenge over humanity forcing them into the condition they are in.

They don't try to get along with human culture because super mutants are fundamentally not human, and they are genetically superior to humans in strength, speed, and, constitution. What could super mutants possibly want from humans that would make them have any desire to want to work with humans(Outside of Strong being retarded and thinking the milk of human kindnesses was something he could obtain from humans)

At this point all you are doing is asking why machines, in series where machines go all Skynet, didn't bother to work alongside humans. Why would they? At the point at which they realize they are objectively better then humanity, what reason would they have to want to be friends with humanity? That's the whole basis behind robot uprising plots. At the point in which they realize they are better, they have no reason to what the objectively inferior humans around.

Why do they attach the name Super-mutants to them, when they have none of the charm or history associated with the original super-mutants, and only superficial similarities?

Because what defines a super mutant is that they are humans mutated by FEV into super human mutants.

Except that Warcraft and TES do not make up the entire of the fantasy genre.

And even in Lord of the Rings, War Hammer, Warhammer 40k, Orcs are shown to have culture.

But they aren't trying anything new by making Supermutants big, dumb creatures that shoot on sight.

New Creatures and Factions are only interesting, if you can actually interact with them.

Except they are, they are creating a race that has realized its own superiority, and actually stands up for themselves rather then the passive

That's only true if it makes sense for them to itneract with you. Trying to force someone who logically shouldn't interact with you into doing so only undermines their believeability and presence in the world.

Good RPGs build there gameplay around the lore, not the other way around.

fundamentally wrong. Not even Fallout 1/2 were this way, nor where Baldur's Gate, NWN, KOTOR, the Ultima series. All RPG work on the premise that gameplay comes before lore, but, if possible, and still keeping the game fun, gameplay can follow lore.

How dare you try to rewrite history like that. For shame.

So what you are saying is that the supposedly most technologically advanced faction in the wasteland(Apart from pretty much every other faction ever), doesn't have access to any machinery capable of killing a Supermutant?

Because they have no reason for it.

(Apart from The Enclave, The Brotherhood and The Shi

Except neither the Shi nor the BoS are anywhere near Institute level. The Enclave and Institute can actually make new weapons, armor, vertibirds, synthetic people. The BoS can't make anything new themselves, and can only scrap/repair things.

The Shi are even less advanced then the BoS, by miles. It's not even a comparison.

 

[Beeooow]

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

3. Except orcs are pretty smart, both in Warcraft, and TES, Orcs have a very developed culture. Your entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation. It also doesn't make any sense because, as you so like to say, not everyone is the same. There are groups of people hostile to everyone else IRL, just like there are groups of people who want to deal with everyone else IRL.

To summarize the miscommunication I see in the "Super Mutants ARE/ARE NOT people" argument.

Dr Lazer's apparent definition of people: Beings capable of being humane.

Greed's apparent definition of people: Literal humans.

In case Greed somehow still hasn't got it. The Super mutants could be a completely different species, maybe intelligent brahmin, but if they're not 100% feral beasts and are capable of communication and reason, they're people. At least from the "They are people" perspective.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Also, if raiders stopped shooting at people on sight, then they wouldn't really be raiders anymore. The whole point of raiders is that they kill everyone who isn't them, and take their stuff.

The term 'raiders' is referring to people who raid settlements, not murder everyone who's different.

The only people raiders have any reason to not shoot are people who deliver drugs, like how the Fiends work with the Khans

The Khans are raiders, they don't shoot you on sight.

The Nuka World raider gangs are Commonwealth raider gangs.

The Nuka World raider gangs have their different methods and appearances, the raiders in the vanilla game are all the same leather wearing psychos with nothing unique about them to separate them from each other. They're just there.

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

People in the Fallout world don't react negatively to Super Mutants just on the basis they're different physically. Did you forget the Unity and the Super Mutant armies destroying settlements and kidnapping people? Most people wouldn't have been around back then but it left a huge impact on history.

Your entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation.

You're seriously going to suggest that the dumb kill on sight "RAHH I HATE HUMANS! BRAIN HURTS!" mutants are not boring? There's nothing interesting about them, they are just bad guys to shoot.

And series stagnation? You're joking right? Super Mutants shouldn't even exist on the East Coast but Bethesda are too lazy to come up with anything original so they tried to rehash some of the success of the first 2 Fallouts.

 

[Jogre]

Raiders in Fallout 4 negotiate for hostages as well. They just aren't stupid enough to let you into their base like only a moron would do

But how do they negotiate with people, make alliances, ect. if nobody is allowed to actually make contact with them?

And besides, it wasn't idiotic to let some random dude walk in to there base. The Khans probably figured that one guy isn't able to take on an entire army by himself(Which in most cases, would be a correct judgement)

A. Powder Gangers are not raiders.

They raid caravans, I don't see how they aren't raiders.

"Greed, post: 4198095, member: 103751"]And Super Mutants in Fallout 4 have thoughts and feelings. They have established leadership, a functional communist society among themselves, and show clear sadness over the deaths of their friends/family members/pets.

Established Leadership?, Where?

We do not here about big creatures leading all the Supermutants, instead they all seem fairly scattered.

Because what defines a super mutant is that they are humans mutated by FEV into super human mutants.

Before Bethesda, all Supermutants came from Mariposa, as a result of The Master's FEV. I don't see why they need to keep shoehorning in supermutants in to new games.

At this point all you are doing is asking why machines, in series where machines go all Skynet, didn't bother to work alongside humans. Why would they? At the point at which they realize they are objectively better then humanity, what reason would they have to want to be friends with humanity? That's the whole basis behind robot uprising plots. At the point in which they realize they are better, they have no reason to what the objectively inferior humans around.

But if Supermutants are so superior to humans, how come they aren't posing any threat to the Commonwealth.

Like seriously, in Fallout 1 its established that Supermutants are a real threat, and can flatten entire cities, yet in Fallout 4 nobody ever talks about them, or even adknowledges that they could potentially destroy everything they hold dear, they are just generic monsters out in the wasteland.

And even in Lord of the Rings, War Hammer, Warhammer 40k, Orcs are shown to have culture.

Yes, but they are still presented as dumb brutes who attack on sight.

Like supermutants in Fallout 3 and 4.

Except they are, they are creating a race that has realized its own superiority, and actually stands up for themselves rather then the passive

But why don't we find out about Supermutant culture, have Supermutants having great meetings, and organising domination of the Commonwealth, ect.

The way they are presented, they just feel like they are soley designed to be enemies to shoot at, as opposed to having any meaningful flavor.

Because they have no reason for it.

Maybe because putting a bunch of super-weapons capable of flattening cities on a surface, when they could perhaps in future want to IDK, actually excavate that surface, isn't the smartest move.

The Enclave and Institute can actually make new weapons, armor, vertibirds, synthetic people. The BoS can't make anything new themselves, and can only scrap/repair things.

If the BOS can't make any weapons for themselves, why did Scribe Vree mention specifically that the Brotherhood are making there own models of weaponry.

And besides, The Institute models of weaponry are somehow even worse in damage than pre-war variants. How do you justify the most technologically advanced faction ever, creating worse weapons than the pre-war world?

The Shi are even less advanced then the BoS, by miles. It's not even a comparison.

The Shi have found a renewable, clean source of fuel that can power there entire base.

The Institute still rely on a pre-war piece of technology to fuel theres.

Who seems more advanced in this instance?

 

[Greed]

snip

1. And the easiest way to raid someone is to simply kill them and take their stuff.

2. Khans are not raiders, they are tribals. Big difference at a fundamental level in terms of culture.

3. OFC most raiders are similar. They are raiders. People who decide they don't want to work and instead go out and steal stuff from other people. They aren't based on any sort of cultist culture, or pre-war organization, like the Khans are. They are otherwise normal people. They would dress basically the same because that is what is easy to get. They aren't an organization, they don't need stylized uniforms. Only the rare raider group like the Forged, the Rust Devils, or the Nuka World raider clans would logically be that individualized. And those would logically be the minority groups because those are groups based on a specific culture or cultist mentality, rather then just being humans who don't want to work for a living.

4. Did you forget that by the time of New Vegas that stuff is like 80+ years old, and basically no one from then is alive anymore? By the time of NV, people pick on them simply for being different. Aka, generic racism. Which is also why I hated Marcus/Jacobstown being in NV. It was entirely pointless, and added nothing to the super mutant plot besides a mindless rehash of Fallout 2's Broken Hills.

5. Yes? To be perfectly honest, I find talking to Strong more interesting then talking to Marcus in NV. Specifically because most super mutants do nothing but attack you on sight. It's interesting to find the outcast who can tell about the "other" culture you otherwise wouldn't be able to interact with.

Super Mutants being nothing but reskinned humans makes them boring because theres nothing unique about them besides their now utterly superficial appearance. They are JUST people, and Ive already talked to a lot of JUST people in all other parts of the games. Super Mutants should be different, or else there is no reason to have them be super mutants in the first place beyond an easy out to use the racism card.

snip

1. In neutral places that aren't the middle of their bases. Places like the Combat Zone, East City Downs, Goodneighbor. Places we see raiders interacting with other raider clans, other organizations like the Triggerman, and places we know groups like the gunners go to get contracts from people.

You have this really naive sort of thinking when it comes to faction interactions. Like, you expect a solider from the Afghanistan Army to JUST be able to walk onto an America military base uninvited, and not get shot. No, thats not how it happens, you have neutral grounds where you do these sorts of things, for very obvious reason.

2. Because being raiders is a lifestyle. Powder Gangers are only doing what they are for the moment.

3. Fist at the top Trinity Tower, many super mutants mention reporting to him, and Trinity Tower is stated to be the super Mutants main base in the Commonwealth.

4. Because thats the sort of things series operate on? Like, imagine any other series, like Metal Gear, but you remove Snake, Metal Gears, any of the established characters/factions... at that point what makes it a metal gear game. I don't understand this bizarre logic of yours.

5. They are a threat. They attack wasteland settlements constantly, control a massive portion of Downtown Boston, have forced most people to hide behind the walls of either Diamond City or Goodneighbor, and are so powerful not even The Institute wants to mess with. Super Mutants dominate the day to day life of most people in The Commonwealth.

6. OFC they attack on sight, for the same reason they do in Fo3/4. They have no reason not too.

7. The Institute makes it pretty clear they don't care about the surface at all.

8. If the BoS can make things for themselves, why does Veronica bring up the fact that they cant in New Vegas? Its called a retcon, at most, the BoS can make a few basic weapon mods.

9. Because The Institute doesn't need to make stronger weapons. The Institute weapons are meant to be like their Gen1/2 synths, easily and cheaply made, and mass produced, at the expense of firepower.

10. The Institute modified a pre-war fusion reactor, that was only supposed to be used for testing purposes, into a fully fictional, on all the time, fusion reactor that can provide effectively unlimited amounts of energy forever. Yeah, The Institute wins out in that regard.

 

[DR_LaZer]

Edit: Sorry for everything seeming to fuck up. I have no clue why it's doing that.

1. Because most raiders have no long term planning, and get destroyed by other raider clans, or by internal fighting. It takes someone smart, and with a very rare type of charisma, to be able to get a whole bunch of raider clans to come together, and not have the whole thing shit itself. Also, if raiders stopped shooting at people on sight, then they wouldn't really be raiders anymore. The whole point of raiders is that they kill everyone who isn't them, and take their stuff. Its exactly like the Fiends, Vipers, and Jackals in New Vegas. The only people raiders have any reason to not shoot are people who deliver drugs, like how the Fiends work with the Khans, and how the raiders work with the Triggermen.

And just for clarification, The Commonwealth refers to the entire post-war state of Massachusetts, not just the area we explore in the box. Nuka World is still in The Commonwealth. The Nuka World raider gangs are Commonwealth raider gangs.

...... It seems I literally have to spell it out for you. S as in shit stained monkeys. O as in oh my god what happened!? M as in Motherfucker! E as in egotistical jackoff! S-O-M-E SOME raiders would do that. Do you understand now sonny? SOME raider clans would turn into settled raiders. No shit Sherlock not ALL of them would do it. But there would be at least more than none on the entire game map. It's bad enough to think of it with the games already existing size, but when you take into account your whole logic of everything being scaled down, then it's even more unbelievable.

And you know what makes The Fiends and Friends so much more tollerable?! It's the fact that in 4 there's like next to none interesting side factions that fucking do anything. While Vegas has a ton of em. And again, you don't encounter so fucking many of them that you begin to wonder how they're even raiding anything anymore when everything is just raiders. How the system should work is that civilized peoples outnumber raiders. But in Bethesda lands raiders outnumber civilized people.

And even if they are still in the Commonwealth, they're still locked behind DLC.

2. TBH, I find it more disgraceful to Marcus that you consider him human after everything he is been through. Your entire line of thought is dumbing Super Mutants down, and reducing them to nothing more then a thin expy of modern day racism. By your logic, why even bother having super mutants in the first place when you can just make everyone racist to black or asian people, or non-feral ghouls, and get the same result. Since apparently everything about getting infected by a super virus, and having your very DNA changed into something new, seemingly doesn't matter, or effect what you are.

You Idiot. You absolute idiot. No shit they're not humans. What do you think I am, some kind of clown? I never said that they were humans you nit picking son of a gun. I said that they were, PEOPLE! Just as ghouls are people too. And so are synths. People as in they have their own hopes and dreams and wishes and goals and thoughts and emotions that are not like Bethesda's "RAAAAAH You die now! Me rip out bones! Raaaaahhh!" But civilized people who just thought they had a better way, but when it didn't work out most of them settled down while there still was SOME who did stick to The Master's way. But in the end, they're still well written PEOPLE!

And oh my god, the entire fucking game of Fallout 2 is about racism! From the very start there's themes of racism in the first town but with tribals and normals! Up until the very end to the point of everyone but the Enclave being a mutant. The whole mutation process does fuckin' matter, but it does not turn you into mindless Orcs! It just makes you a bigger better stronger not so faster person! ARGH!

3. Except orcs are pretty smart, both in Warcraft, and TES, Orcs have a very developed culture. Your entire argument that all super mutants everywhere have to be exactly the same everywhere is also pretty terrible. Its on par with saying that all BoS everywhere have to be exactly the same as the West Coast chapters, and none of them can think to try anything new. Its entirely boring, and leads to nothing but series stagnation. It also doesn't make any sense because, as you so like to say, not everyone is the same. There are groups of people hostile to everyone else IRL, just like there are groups of people who want to deal with everyone else IRL.

Except not all orcs in every kind of media across different franchises are smart. Like Fallout 4's for example!

Also, I'm cool with a more savage kind of Super Mutants. I'm cool with an entirely different kind of Super Mutants. I'm not cool with every single Super Mutant I meet instantly try to kill me on sight save for literally like six separate examples. The problem I have is a once amazing concept and idea has been twisted to give me big green targets to just shoot. I am OK with new ANYTHING as long as it's written well and I can actually talk to them in some form or fashion. And that's especially important when said faction takes up half of the entire map.

B. Did you miss all the stuff like the Gunner's skull symbols, the raider's totems, and the super mutant's gore bags, cooking pots, and other stuff? Its pretty easy to spot territory from some distance out.
C. Raiders raid people like the Abernathys, the Slog, Covenant, Warwick Homestead, Finch Farm, Greygarden, and all the other pre-existing settlements. Several raider gangs also accept bribes from Bunker Hill to not attack trader caravans, and get caps from them.

Never knew cooking pots were a sign of territory.

Also, how can they accept bribes when all they do is raid and shoot people? Plus, the raider to settlement ratio is still fuckin' wack, jack.

A. That was all of 5-6 super mutants, and 1-2 dogs, and the Diamond City Guards get their asses kicked unless you help. That's not an attack, thats a band of super mutants walking too close to DC and getting in a fight.
B. Again, gameplay =/= lore
C. Making comparisons to how easy it was to take down Super Mutants in Fallout 1/2 ignores the fact these aren't the same kind of super mutants. Nice false equivalence.

Dude, you were going on a minute ago about how even a small group of Super Mutants is like an army of humans. And no they don't. I never threw a punch. I'm a pacifist. Plus... they are attacking the front gates of Diamond City.... that sounds like an attack to me!

And I'm just gonna say it, this gameplay =/= lore thing just kinda feels like terrible game design. Like, seriously. I mean, this is a video game. Where the lore should match the gameplay. Sure, things like distance kinda makes sense I guess. But the strength of Super Mutants? No, that seems like something to be shown through gameplay.

Well, what's so different between them? Aside from the fact that most of them are as dumb as a bag of bricks. Like, I get that they were using some shitter version of the FEV and gassing them instead of dipping them. By all forms of simple logic, eastern Orcs should be weaker than western ones. I don't see how a non perfected FEV makes stronger mutants. And even if they are stronger, how stronger can they be? How big of a gap is there?

9. Look around The Institute, where do you see the giant industrial sized saws needed to cut a super mutant's head off? Where do you see the big ass electric chair needed to fry their brains? Where do you see a big ass incinerator needed to dispose of the body? They don't have that. Also, most surfacers don't know where the super mutants come from. Hell, it revealed during the BoS questline, and during the memory sequence with Kellogg, that the FEV program is a top secret program not even people like Doctor Li, one of the four division heads, knows about.

Are you implying that the super smart science people can't make an electric chair. Or a fire pit hot enough to burn a person to ashes. Or have an industrial saw? The same people who created human and gorilla life can't make a large arc furnace?

It kinda seems like a simple case of using logic if you're just a rando. "Oh jeez, these synths sure are a problem in our society today. And so are these mutants that showed up out of the blue. Saaaaayyy, if these synths showed up out of nowhere from the Institute, maybe those Super Mutants came from there too!" It's simple logic. Simple enough for the average joe to follow.

11. Except the BoS have no intent to purge everything that isn't human. The only things they purge are feral ghouls, supermutants, and synths. The first two are nothing but hostile to everyone that isn't them. And their hatred of synths is justified given how synths are used. The BoS has no problem with non-feral ghouls, and takes no action against them, because they can exist as part of normal cooperative society. Danse even commends the ghouls at The Slog, and Teagan, can ask you to make a deal with them for supplies. Even after the BoS can take over Mass Fusion, which is a stones throw from Goodneighbor, but take no action against the non-ferals there.

Well, the disappointment of the Maxson line kinda went off on a rant about how "synths are an abomination of mankind, birthed from the cold metal of a machine and not the loving care of a mother. They are disgusting and must be destroyed." and how they'll "purge the filth of the wasteland by eradicating those super mutants." It all seemed extremely genocidal. Like, it's not that he wants to kill all the badly used synths, but leave the good ones alive. A synth is a synth is a synth. All must be purged. Same for super mutants. All must be purged. The feral ghoul thing makes sense though. I kinda left them out of what I was saying intentionally. Though with the other two, it's like if they did go around killing feral ghouls, but then they said "a ghoul is a ghoul is a ghoul and must be eradicated!" then killed all ghouls. Which is a dick move.

And The Institute has flaws, they are a bunch of xenophobes who care little about anyone but themselves, and have generally abandoned humanity on the surface. On the flip side, they have achieved a level of technology unlike anyone else, and have developed a self sustained quasi-utopian paradise that will likely outlast any civilization on the surface.

Its only pointless if you try to make it out to where the surface is the only place that matters. all that matters is mankind's survival, be it on the surface, under the earth, or in the stars.

Those aren't flaws, they're traits. Being xenophobic who don't care about no one is not a flaw. That's a trait. Nor is abandoning humanity a flaw. A flaw is... a broken political system. Or a working but corrupted political system.

And considering the fact that a buncha fuckin' dudes in the Railroad can take down The Institute, I don't see them lasting long.