Fallout 4: The Nature of Generic Bad Dudes

[Greed]

The gamepedia article about it doesn't say we can find maize in the wilderness, all the locations are either from vendors or from farms/settlements/previous farms:
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Maize#Locations

Wikis only list the largest locations, not all of them.

Okay, one last reply. I gave an answer (but I acknowledge that there are gaps in lore so excuse me for making an educated guess) but I see only see nitpicking from you so let me reiterate my answer. One could theorize that there were smaller farms and settlements outside the Strip since the region was not as badly hit. The outlying area seemed fine, save for regions with extensive amounts of mutant animals, and there could have been small villages before the arrival of the main factions that would have existed but not lasted due to the various hostile tribals of the old Strip. Like this village:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Tribal_village
Don't forget, the wall of the Strip was constructed on House's orders in recent years so it would have been easier to obtain supplies from areas outside of the Strip.

There have been places where farms could have been made but in New Vegas, the setting has reached a point where those places would have been taken over by the factions like NCR Sharecroppers.

Sure, that's possible, but its never stated. The biggest problem is that NV's history doesn't make any sense, and the main problem is House.

House went into a coma during the war because his systems failed due to lacking the platinum chip. He woke up from that coma in 2138, 4 years before Shady Sands was even founded, and then produced to do literally all of nothing for the next 136 years for reasons that are never explained.

House claims to want to rebuild humanity, but then did nothing to try to organize the people of Vegas for over 100 ears until the very last minute. House could have become the NCR, instead of needing to leech off of him.

The problem is only further worsened by the sheer improbably that a large group of people, in a city that was untouched by the war, and that had a massive clean water source, failed to accomplish any sort of actual civilization in 200 years, despite the fact people on both the east and west coast did more in far less time.

Everything about the Mojave's backstory is basically just one giant contrivance to try to handwave away why its such a massive dump when it had so many things stacked in its favor that it should have been the first place in the entirety of the wetsern U.s. to rebuild.

 

[CerberusGate]

They aren't looking very good, from all the entire plantation only two plants are still alive (can be harvested by what that article I linked says).

I think only two may be an exaggeration but I do agree that the plants are not looking very good.

The pic here seems to indicate as such (and I can't verify it since I'm not playing New Vegas at the moment).

 

[CT Phipps]

Wikis only list the largest locations, not all of them.

Sure, that's possible, but its never stated. The biggest problem is that NV's history doesn't make any sense, and the main problem is House..

It's this weird idea that humans are actually good at building civilization which I hope will eventually get over here at the forums. I imagine in the Fallout universe, that things have probably gotten much worse rather than better and with good reason given the dual fact that ecological ruin and resource scarcity will mean humans will devour each other like animals versus joining together to sing Kumbaya.

One thing I do note, though, is people really have a weird opinion of House that he's this flawless visionary when he's more like Andrew Ryan. He's an incredibly flawed visionary. Why? Because when creating the location to rebuild his civilization from, he chooses a DESERT and a city which cannot survive without imported water.

House doesn't want to build NCR. He wants to build VEGAS.

He doesn't want to rebuild the United States, he wants to build VEGAS.

Which he does.

The things House has constructed are casinos and tourist destinations because, again, he's not interested in rebuilding human civilization or making alliances but building his own little Objectivist Utopia. Except he's slightly better at rewarding people.

Given his goals are to create his own snug litlte City state, I think he did a damn good job.

 

[Greed]

Given his goals are to create his own snug litlte City state, I think he did a damn good job.

While I agree with your earlier points, I can't agree with this. House did literally everything wrong in building Vegas

1. He waited until the very last minute, right as a large and powerful nation was coming, to do anything to build his city, which only left him vulnerable. Had he done something 100+ years ago, when he first woke up, while he might not have had an NCR, his city would have been far better off, and far more self sustaining, then it was, giving him a greater edge in keeping his independence from the NCR.

2. When he did get around to building his city, he idiotically threw everyone who wouldn't play dress up out into slums, which only weakened his already small power base, by making everyone in Freeside, North Vegas, and Westside, hate him. This only made his hold on Vegas even shakier. While I do understand the whole appeal of Vegas is the personalities of the three families, even Vegas IRL is not operated solely by them. There is a far larger average Joe workforce behind the scenes keeping Las Vegas running. Had House offered the casinos to the Three Families, but also kept the other peoples of Vegas as his support staff, he would have had a far stronger support base to leverage against the NCR.

3. When it comes to actually running the Strip, he took the most hands off approach possible, which only made the Three Families hate him, since no one likes being ruled over by a person who doesn't seem to care. It was so bad the Omertas even gave him the nickname "not at home", and plotted to take over the Strip. While the White Gloves were going back to cannibalism, and Benny, his hand picked chosen successor, betrayed him. He picked the Three Families to basically secure his city, but then made sure they wanted to destroy it by being the worst possible ruler ever.

4. Now when it comes to the Plat chip, House screwed up there also. He sent one of his easily trackable robots(due to how infrequent they are outside The Strip) to Nash and placed the singularly most suspicious order possible, with the 7 random items he had sent. Which only drew attention to the order, and finding the chip easier if you know what you were looking for like Benny did. This in turn made it incredibly easy to find and get the chip, which in turn meant House's entire plan would have gone up in smoke had the Courier not magically survived his headshot.

House did literally everything possible run in making Vegas and trying to achieve his plans.

 

[CT Phipps]

While I agree with your earlier points, I can't agree with this. House did literally everything wrong in building Vegas

Mister House's decades-long silence is something of a question mark when it comes to what exactly he was up to. We can only speculate on what he was doing but my general assumption is it doesn't strike me as likely House was just sitting on his ass. Given the sophistication of his technology, Hoover Dam, and other matters it's quite likely House spent that time productively getting his materials in place.

You may suggest that House made an error throwing out everyone who wouldn't agree with his despotic rule (certainly, Vault 21 seems like an odd choice to do so) but we keep coming back to the fact House is not trying to build a alliance but build a city-state under his absolute control. The Omertas, Chairmen, and White Glove Society are the people who agreed to live under his despotism which is the absolute goal of House.

Also, I think you somewhat overstate the situation. All of the troubles which House faces are things which are the result of small groups within the three tribes working to subvert the whole of them. They're also things relatively easily thwarted if you have a capable enough agent (Benny or the Courier).

House is fundamentally a conservative player and also relatively unambitious despite everyone thinking he's going to build a gigantic empire. NCR annexes the Mojave and so does Caesar's Legion while House just annexes Freeside as a result of his triumph.

It's a monomania of a vision but it's how House wants it.

 

[CerberusGate]

It's this weird idea that humans are actually good at building civilization which I hope will eventually get over here at the forums

Well since the main series has depicted the rebuilding of civilization in a setting that has not gone completely to hell, I doubt the idea will ever die out unless the series reaches a finale. We have seen that people in the setting do try to rebuild some form of civilization even if their interpretation of civilization differs.

Look at it this way; if Fallout's setting was all chaos with no hope of rebuilding anything, I would not give a damn about the setting since any positive things I do for the land would not be worth the effort. The fact that civilization has recovered to a good extent in the setting shows that man has the capacity to do remedy their mistakes. Ulysses even points out that while war never changes, men do through the roads they walk. That line always brings to mind that man as a whole can change, it just requires them to learn from their experiences.

Which makes it all the more tragic to me when the recovered civilizations begin to repeat the mistakes of past pre-War governments and slowly comes apart. It's why I actually gave a damn about helping out in games like New Vegas since I did want try to improve conditions in the Wasteland to ensure these civilizations can learn, develop or recover due to knowing that these recovered societies can survive (like in 2 with the NCR during Tandi's presidency) but only if they learn from the past.

One thing I do note, though, is people really have a weird opinion of House that he's this flawless visionary when he's more like Andrew Ryan. He's an incredibly flawed visionary. Why? Because when creating the location to rebuild his civilization from, he chooses a DESERT and a city which cannot survive without imported water.

I'm not sure about others but I'm not someone who sees House as some flawless visionary, I recognize that he is a flawed individual, though one who is great at calculating probabilities. I acknowledge and respect his capabilities and intellect (his successful business aside, he did predict the oncoming Great War and actually took countermeasures to protect his home city at least) but I do not see him as someone who would build a thriving post-apocalyptic nation. All I saw in game was that he was restoring Vegas.

Also, the desert is relatively close to a relatively uncontaminated Lake Mead in-game and we do see pipe-lines to transport water so water would not be an issue (if anything, food is more likely to be a problem seeing how Gunderson's embargo can actually cause food prices to rise in the Strip since less food can get through).

In game, I saw him as someone trying to bring back a piece of the past, that is unsuited to the present setting. He had the right ideas and skills (his hands-off approach did grant freedom for the former tribes to operate) probably but I felt like he was not trying to further society in the current world but trying to bring bits of the Old World back. Society in his New Vegas could develop but only based on what he believes is for the best. He may get to the space colonization phase if all of his plans succeed (and I have a feeling he could succeed given his own capabilities) but part of me doubted it since it seemed to me like he wanted to bring Las Vegas back to the post-apocalyptic world that no longer needed it.

Cass puts it best in her ending slide:

Cass lived to see Hoover Dam in its Old World glory, humming with power the likes of which the Mojave had never seen. Vegas burned brighter than ever, securitrons filled the streets, and Cass's heart skipped... just a little. Her last words were to the Dam - and to herself. "We were going full speed ahead... but facing backwards the whole time.

 

[CT Phipps]

Well since the main series has depicted the rebuilding of civilization in a setting that has not gone completely to hell, I doubt the idea will ever die out unless the series reaches a finale. We have seen that people in the setting do try to rebuild some form of civilization even if their interpretation of it differs.

Look at it this way; if Fallout's setting was all chaos with no hope of rebuilding anything, I would not give a damn about the setting since any positive things I do for the land would be worth the effort. The fact that civilization has recovered to a good extent in the setting shows that man has the capacity to do remedy their mistakes. Ulysses even points out that while war never changes, men do through the roads they walk. That line always brings to mind that man as a whole can change, it just requires them to learn from their experiences.

Which makes it all the more tragic to me when the recovered civilizations begin to repeat the mistakes of past pre-War governments and slowly comes apart. It's why I actually gave a damn about helping out in games like New Vegas since I did want try to improve conditions in the Wasteland to ensure these civilizations can learn, develop or recover due to knowing that these recovered societies can survive (like in 2 with the NCR during Tandi's presidency).

For me, I think it's a question of what you term to be rebuilding and just what you consider to be worthwhile. I think it's entirely possible it'll be thousands of years before humanity will be able to return to a position like it was in the Pre-War era. It's also possible that humanity may stay at a state like this for the rest of eternity. The environment having been made too hostile to really overcome.

That doesn't mean life isn't worth living, though.

It's just not going to be "tamed."

 

[CerberusGate]

The environment having been made too hostile to really overcome.

That doesn't mean life isn't worth living, though.

It's just not going to be "tamed."

On that we can agree, though YMMV on how hostile the environment is since it's nothing like The Road's post-apoc world of implied biosphere extinction plus some of these communities have learned how to handle the hostile fauna of the land (Deathclaws, for instance, are not terrifying nightmares like they were in 1 since people have learnt more about them and have adapted to handling them in their own ways though the common approach is to run away from them).

I'm more optimistic seeing how 1 & 2 has depicted successful reconstruction of modern society (with the NCR having secure cities, electricity and amenities that could run out) and despite what you think of the Legion, New Vegas does depict differing forms (and interpretations) of civilization in the post-apocalyptic setting forming with varying levels of success. With the right people, nations like the NCR can continue to thrive or at least survive should resources start to run out though as the game shows, the right people are not in power in the NCR at the moment while their methods only seem to be temporary.

 

[Jogre]

Ok, so apparently you guys never sleep, and debated on for 7 pages throughout the night, but I would like to make a point.

1. Source. The game. If you go to a place like Black Mountain, and shoot one of the super mutants there, they will, very slowly, regan HP as long as they stay in the irradiated part of it.

That's because they use the same stats as Fallout 3 for Supermutants, and probably didn't think to rewrite that.

I don't think Obsidian made the active choice to make Supermutants regenerate in radiation.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Which has nothing to do with what we were talking about. So now you are just moving goalposts.

Cute, but not an effective way to discuss things.

If you think, this doesn't matter, then how can you even say that you know anything about Fallout? You think that turning nuclear 'explosions' into something trivial isn't a problem?

I will say it like this.

The mentality of Fallout 1:

My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.
- Timothy Cain, the original Creator of the Fallout series.

The mentality of Fallout 4:

Hey, it's Fallout, let's get some nuclear explosions on the screen."
- Todd Howard.

 

[Greed]

If you think, this doesn't matter, then how can you even say that you know anything about Fallout? You think that turning nuclear 'explosions' into something trivial isn't a problem?

Because nukes were always trivial in Fallout. They even had a rather long handwavium justification in the Fallout 1 manual as to why places like LA and Bakersfield were still standing via weak as hell justification that nukes in Fallout had a smaller explosive force, but more radiation output, but the numbers they give for the nuke's size would still have level large parts of the city, to the point that even what we see in-game wouldn't be still standing.

From game 1 they were finding every ways to make nukes trivial, and only as deadly as they needed in that particular instance in the plot.

Even when we use nukes in Fallout 1/2 they destroy all of one small church, and one oil rig, and have absolutely zero repercussions on the local environment or people, despite the fact the radiation would logically screw over tons of stuff.

I think the only real acknowledgement of what blowing up the Cathedral should have done was form Fergus Urquhart saying that a hypothetical Fallout LA would be like Fallout meets the walking dead "due to all the radiation"

 

[Crni Vuk]

Because nukes were always trivial in Fallout.

Prove it?

How have nukes been 'trivial' in Fallout 1 or Fallout 2?

Oh, I see, that Gishgalop of yours is also the same kind of 'triviality' like giving the player a slightly bigger hand-grenade, nuking a town for lulz, and dressing super mutants with suicide nuclear-devices with the yield of a slightly bigger hand greande and throwing cars all over the place that explode in mushroom clouds on the slightest bumb.

Yes man. You completely destroyed my argument ...
I can totally see how this is exactly the same like what Fallout 1 did. Completely.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

On the other hand, the only two other control Vaults known in lore(Vaults 11 and 76) didn't have a GECK.

Vault 11 wasn't a control Vault.

Goodsprings is a small, barely active town that has been a mining community since the early days of Nevada. Most recently, it was settled under a grant from NCR to develop a low-risk mining environment near a reliable source of potable water. Even so, there are only a dozen or so people in the town due to trade along the Long 15 drying up. Signs along the highway direct people to Goodsprings, but they do the town no good if no one is on the highway to read them.

Interesting bit of backstory I didn't know, cool.

Various posts debating Super Mutants healing in radiation

I've tested the Super Mutant radiation healing in New Vegas, it doesn't happen for me no matter how long a mutant stands somewhere radioactive.

 

[Greed]

Prove it?

How have nukes been 'trivial' in Fallout 1 or Fallout 2?

Already provided examples

Oh, I see, that Gishgalop of yours is also the same kind of 'triviality' like giving the player a slightly bigger hand-grenade, nuking a town for lulz, and dressing super mutants with suicide nuclear-devices with the yield of a slightly bigger hand greande and throwing cars all over the place that explode in mushroom clouds on the slightest bumb.

Well
A. The Holy Hand Grenade made nuclear powered grenades back in Fallout 2.
B. How is anything you listed trivializing nukes? Especially given that everything you listed is the most dangerous and damaging stuff in the game?

Vault 11 wasn't a control Vault.

Yeah, I was thinking of Vault 11 because they were talking about it earlier.

Meant Vaults 3, 8, and 76

 

[CT Phipps]

I do note nukes are everywhere in New Vegas.

Which is kind of funny given Obsidian's fidelity to the setting.

 

[Jogre]

A. The Holy Hand Grenade made nuclear powered grenades back in Fallout 2.

>Using an obvious Monty Python Easter Egg to prove a point.

I do note nukes are everywhere in New Vegas.

Source?

 

[CerberusGate]

I do note nukes are everywhere in New Vegas.

Which is kind of funny given Obsidian's fidelity to the setting.

Not exactly and how are they everywhere?

The only real nukes were Fat Man ammo (since Obsidian had to place them somewhere since the modern audience loves the Fat Man though they did add on a lot to it with weapon mods while the GRA DLC added in a unique Fat Man and the different ammo types) and the undetonated nuke from that one Wild Wasteland encounter. Aside from that, the only sources of radiation are from waste disposal sites and the craters with Bethesda's type of radiation.

As for the Divide though... that's a different place from New Vegas altogether with lore-established reasons for the bombs being there.

EDIT:

A. The Holy Hand Grenade made nuclear powered grenades back in Fallout 2.

Did you actually use one of the easter eggs to justify your point? Easter eggs that the actual creators of 2 have regretted excessively inserting into their game with hindsight.

Out of all your headcanon justifications and nitpicking you've done to defend 4 (& your points), this is the weakest point & argument you have come up with.

Just...

 

[CT Phipps]

As for the Divide though... that's a different place from New Vegas altogether with lore-established reasons for the bombs being there.

You forgot Caesar used a dirty nuke to create a ghoul-infested hellhole.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

I do note nukes are everywhere in New Vegas.

Which is kind of funny given Obsidian's fidelity to the setting.

The Divide yes, which is something I personally am not fond of. I like to think of nuclear weapons as very rare by this point.

You forgot Caesar used a dirty nuke to create a ghoul-infested hellhole.

Actually they opened the highly radioactive containers in the town.

The guard at Camp Searchlight have been leaving holes in their patrols at night. You are to enter the camp and go directly to the Fire Station. Once inside you will find several canisters, open as many of them as you can and report back to me.

Vulpes Inculta

 

[CerberusGate]

The Divide yes, which is something I personally am not fond of. I like to think of nuclear weapons as very rare by this point.

I'm guessing the experiments by Big MT on the region may have prevented the personnel there from even activating or accessing the nukes. Even the Vault wiki can only speculate:

The Great War apparently took the military here by surprise, as the ICBMs never left their missile silos. It is possible that the aforementioned backfiring meteorological experiment has resulted in the soldiers here dying or fleeing before the American missiles could take flight

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Divide

Also, good catch with the barrels in Camp Searchlight. I almost confused those with a dirty bomb.

You forgot Caesar used a dirty nuke to create a ghoul-infested hellhole.

@Prone Squanderer is right. It was not a bomb but large quantities of radioactive waste barrels being opened.

Fallout: New Vegas Official Game Guide Collector's Edition p.421-422: "[6.16] Camp Searchlight
As an unfortunate twist of fate would have it, a convoy of flatbed trucks transporting nuclear waste from San Onofre was passing through Searchlight when the Great War broke out. Local police directed the drivers to temporarily park their vehicles in the fire department, but no one ever came back to retrieve them. There they sat in their extremely sturdy solid steel spent fuel flasks for over 200 years. The NCR recently set up a sizable base here; but this was a major obstacle for Caesar's Legion due to its size and clear view of the surrounding desert. When it became obvious that a direct assault would not prove fruitful, Vulpes Inculta sent in some spies to learn more about the situation. After he learned about the radioactive waste being stored in the fire station, he ordered some unwitting legionaries to open the containers. Though the legionaries died almost instantly, the sacrifice produced a massive wave of death and ghoulification among NCR troops that effectively destroyed Camp Searchlight as a viable military base.
(Upper) Restrooms
There's a skeleton of a long-dead fireman in one of the stalls, and an extra-special Fireaxe!"

http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Camp_Searchlight#cite_note-FNVOGGGYE-1