Fallout 2 mod Fallout: Yesterday

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by hexer, Apr 5, 2020.

  1. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    That depends upon the task, and the intended experience. RT is superior to TB in cases where options are few, and the decisions must be quick, but it's unplayable when the options are many, and when the player is tasked with choosing the best action for their character.

    Consider a martial arts game where the [expert] PC has 20 attack moves that each work best in specific situations, but are not great in others. How do you select one in real time?—How to even know which one to select? The strength of a turn based approach is that the player has time to evaluate a situation carefully before deciding what action to take, (though it presumably takes just an instant in the PC's mind; that PC who is an expert with decades of HtH experience).

    This is the flip-side of roleplaying, that the player can roleplay a character who is far more skilled at a task than they are (or far less skilled). This is akin to 'Street Fighter' where one player —knows— the undocumented moves and patterns from experience, while another player only mashes punch & kick, while being constantly surprised. Now imagine the skilled player fighting AI opponents under the direction of the novice; doing only what the novice tells them. Would they not want the novice to be informed of all their options before choosing? If they don't know their options they just shout punch & kick.

    RT is superior yes [for some games], but not for the intended Fallout experience. Understand that during the development of Fallout, Diablo [1] was released, and the Interplay dev team were highly pressured by management to make the combat realtime; interestingly... Diablo was originally turn based until late in development, when they suddenly changed the type of game they were making.

    These two games play very differently... and are not doing the same experience with combat. Even years later, the devs at Obsidian stated that Fallout 3 (had they made it) would have always been turn based... and this is years after 14°East had made Fallout:Tactics.
    ___________________
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2022
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  2. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Not saying TB is always better than RT, but your example is shit. He is hiding behind a corner and blasting everything with an (in this situation) OP weapon. Hardly what I would call quality gameplay. :D
    If your game needs you to cheese like this, it's crap design.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  3. The_Den_Resident

    The_Den_Resident It Wandered In From the Wastes

    171
    Jan 26, 2022
    Great! Now would you kindly tell me where I place that command for FOnline 2? I don't play FOnline 3.
     
  4. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    It's been years since I looked at FOnline, but I think there was a property for combat mode in the location definitions. You can easily force the whole game to only run in TB.
    That said, for the online experience, TB was always garbage.
     
  5. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    RT is not intended for fallout originally, but fonline (cvet) did a truly great job implementing it. It's a lot better than what fallout tactics did. And yes, fonline still has locations and modes where you can only have turn-based. And turn-based player events are a thing as well. I'm not a big lover of those since they're slow as hell and there's little to think about really.

    Anyhow, my point is, a single player fonline-based game could force tb everywhere for a more authentic experience, or it could soft-force tb by still letting player to switch to rt if they want to kill many easier enemies. Again, the engine is very powerful. It allows incredible level of core changes. And it's open source, so no need to disassemble stuff or work with odd third-party editors, which is what I imagine working with the ft2 engine is like.

    Well, I need to tell the truth then... In that video, bloodcat was proving that a level30 character can do the raider's cave after they've added the three 3k hp m60 dudes. I was whining that it was undoable by noobs. Bloodcat didn't have a lvl30 character book, only lvl120, but at the beginning he shows his perks and stats to prove that his character is equivalent to a lvl30 character (char hp stops growing after lvl30). Hence the cheesing. Also, m60 is not OP, it's his brd+brd+mrd perk synergy that adds more damage per bullet. I think every brd is +2, and mrd is +3, there you get +7 dmg per bullet and if you have all three, that's +3 more, so +10 dmg per bullet. An m60 burst is 10 bullets (I believe), so + 100 dmg per 1-hex burst. It doesn't feel so OP if you try bursting a combat armor from a distance :) The other side of that, is that your character is not tanky enough to easily survive more than one 1-hex burst from an m60, so first you hide to get them come closer, but then you go back and forth to not let them 1-hex you. And if you get all three of them trying to 1-hex you...

    You can ask in fonline 2 support discord, but that command should be server-agnostic... Well, maybe except AOP cuz they changed the game way too much. you just put it in your chat and in console, you should see a message that your default combat type is now turn-based. But if you want the experience that is the closest to ft2, you wanna play on Reloaded. I believe Reloaded has most single player content and its pace is organic to what the continuation of ft2 would be. Not too fast.

    exactly. Also, the original engine is... Well... it's outdated. It was forked now many times and forks are trully amazing, content-wise, balance-wise and such. Most of the forks are not open, but they get leaked every so often, hehe. in case you want to explore, I would suggest the leaked Reloaded s3, or the leaked Fonline 3 s3 (although this one misses compiled "balance" libraries, so content only).

    Also, about cvet's fonline repo... you're not supposed to use it. It's outdated as hell. Cvet tried taking care of it recently, but he gave up. There are waaaay better forks of it now. The original is completely abandoned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2022
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  6. hexer

    hexer It's PJ! Modder

    437
    Dec 7, 2013
    Hehe you still have those? I remember all the variations, the blue, the green, the yellow... Good times ;)

    It didn't fold. I just switched the engine.

    Dude, if I wanted to use a different engine for this game, I would have used Unreal Engine. I'll now wait for you to reply that FOnline engine is better than Unreal engine :seriouslyno:

    The latest builds are no longer publicly available until the game gets done. You might want to ask someone to share R4.2 with you if you want to play the last public release.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  7. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    Unreal engine is doubtlessly superior. If you want to spend years more on development and still have it far from authentic, lol. I haven't yet played a lot of Yesterday, but it looks like all locations are unique. Which is 95% of work when you do it on fonline and ft2 engines, and about 30% of work if you use a universal engine like unity or unreal. So... not a very good alternative.

    I think fodev.net had a script somewhere that they've used to port ft1, ft2 and Nevada's locations, npcs and dialogues into fonline, so at least all this ft2 work is theoretically portable :)
     
  8. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007

    _____________

    Fallout was not a driving sim either, but a superb implementation of NASCAR in the wasteland does not make a better Fallout game no matter how excellent the design—it's not Fallout gameplay; realtime combat is not Fallout gameplay.

    I enjoyed three-way faction wars in New Reno; when I could get the casinos against the street dealers and
    prostitutes, and my PC/NPC party. I would set the speed setting to slowest too. In Fallout, I loved the Regulator fight; and played it repeatedly until I managed to have Zimmerman survive it.
    __________

    Basically any complaint about the original design equates to not liking cold ice cream, or broccoli that tastes like broccoli. shrug.gif
    (Ginger root is not better broccoli; it's not broccoli at all.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  9. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    nah, I believe you're wrong. I don't like vanilla ice cream, but I'd kill for salted caramel ice cream.

    Same here, it's not like tb is a super important feature in ft. I bet BlackIsle would implement exactly as fonline has it if they had the budget/time/idea. And the game would benefit from it.

    There are lots of things that characterize fallout a lot better than tb. I'd say, the open world, non-linear play, the isometric design, the hexagonal map with oddly shaped "squished" hexagons. the very odd the post-apocalypse atmosphere, music, lore, RPG progression, multiple ways of quest solving, etc. All these things characterize fallout a lot better than tb.

    Moreover, I'd say mandatory tb with no way to switch to rt takes away from the game rather than adding anything to it. And you start understanding that when you start wasting way too much time on simple battles.
     
  10. The_Den_Resident

    The_Den_Resident It Wandered In From the Wastes

    171
    Jan 26, 2022
    Thanks! You recommended FOnline reloaded for a more Single-Player experience when I have a chance I'll check it out.

    But as for FOnline 2 and FOnline 3 what is the difference between them? Why are there 3 Fallout Online games in the first place?

    My only guess is a similar reason why modders amend games. It's because they didn't like (a) certain function(s) of the game. So therefore they revise the purpose(s) of the game. Other than that is there another reason as to why there are 3?
     
  11. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Tactics had RT/TB and it was dogshit. Pretty sure Van Buren combat would have been shit as well.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  12. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    But did you not get the point?

    In your example, Salted Carmel is not Vanilla; you don't like Vanilla. It is irrelevant to the point that both are ice cream, or that they are different flavors; the original point was that of disliking cold ice cream; which is disliking the nature of ice cream—being cold. You dislike the nature of Fallout, it being turn based.

    You would be wrong. Fallout's combat engine was the first thing developed; it was the point—It was GURPS.



    And the developers later made it clear that Fallout 3 would have been turn based; the mechanic is not something they resort to for lack of the option for real-time play—it is the intended experience, and real-time play doesn't offer it.

    There is a reason that Fallout looks and plays the way it does:
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  13. gustarballs1983

    gustarballs1983 Vault Senior Citizen
    Modder

    Oct 28, 2009
    @hexer
    Does Fo:Yesterday plan to have closer to reality door scripts? I mean in a sense that one could not only lockpick it, use crowbar/punch/kick/sledgehammer/to destroy, gunshot/ throw grenade to lockbust on the weaker ones, and for the tougher ones dynamite/C-4/ and potentially: Rocket launcher-explosive rocket, and for *even tougher doors* rocket launcher with AP-rocket, so that only Vault- like door couldn't be opened with explosives.

    I was always bugged Fo/Fo mods has no doors requiring keys only, and the key got misplaced as cheap vendor trash for example, or the lock was initialy broken and unrepairable, and the only way would be to blow the door away, why not be able to do this with St. Javelin the saint patreon of doorbusters and protector of the land and sky from armored vehicles and aircrafts :D I always viewed complexity of a game by how much one can do with the doors in a given game, so far only Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout 2 have been ranked top in this regard, which sort of prooves my point, as in Fo3/Fo:NV/Fo4 or other similar FPS adventure games One can't simply kick the door open, put explosives on them, or better yet blow them away with rocket launcher... sometims, despite the door having broken glass,and a tumblr lock with handcrank on the other side, there's only the bobby pin option :p
     
  14. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    No, no, don't guess. These are just names. They all use the same engine. the only difference is in slight balance adjustments, locations, rules. For example, Reloaded is the least PVP server. You still can kill anyone anywhere, but in most towns, guards will kill you right away, and even if you kill a person in a non-guarded location, they won't lose the content of their inventory, so PK is futile. You could take a source, make a server and call it Fonline 4. Or Fonline 69. Fonline My Little Pony. Doesn't matter.

    Fonline 3 has amazing single-player dungeons and certain perk synergies that make you a lot stronger, you can single handedly wipe a lot of vermin (what the video there features is just the very beginning), so it gives you that feeling of what would the Chosen One feel like destruction-wise if there was proper Fallout 3 on the same engine. But they wrecked current season (s4) with so-called War Events. Those are PVP events that give you permanent stat bonuses, I think up to 20 of them. So the most powerful players meet twice a week to kill each other and get permanent bonuses for it. It's become pathetic. Still, the PVE part is very fun if you ignore all the pvp action.

    Fonline 2 is not quite so powerful version of Fonline 3. I played Fo2 a few years ago for a little bit, but I found it less interesting than Fo3 (Fo2 was a lot more grindy), so I stopped rather quickly. Fo3 made a point not to force the players to do boring grinding like mining, weeds gathering, wood chopping. Reloaded, by the way is very resource-oriented, so you have to gather a lot and build your own stuff. I've had a lot of scripts written for my playthrough in Reloaded a few years ago back in season 3:



    I ended up being a very rich player. I didn't go and break economy, although I did give away a few vertibirds to fellow friends. Had to be careful though. Admins are very good at detecting bots. They have special scripts that flag simple log repetitions to them in real time... so they can teleport to you right away and ask whazup and if you don't answer, jail it is. So I had to embed char checker and even environment checker for when I'm teleported into a prison to be like: "WTF?! I was just clicking that tree to see what would happen!" Anyhow. It was a lot of fun. I've got a few good characters to a prison. Also got banned from their discord. Forever. Kilgore won't unban me now :( It's been three years. To each - their own.

    AOP did the most changes both to the game and to the client. They've done incredible amount of very competent work. Very good coders, and overall smart people. But, alas, 90% of their content is PVP and I prefer PVE.

    Finally, there are many russian fonline servers, but I tend to ignore them. I don't like playing with russians. Huge egos. Oh! and there are RP servers, of course. I'm not a big fan of RP, but a lot of people love it. I think Fonline TLJ is a good one.

    Best thing: none of them (to my knowledge) are pay 2 win. They're made by fans for fans.
    well, then let's agree to disagree. I get your point, but I still do think that fo2 wouldn't suffer from a good RT option.

    PS

    Sorry for all the offtop :)
     
  15. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    foodndrink-2.gif

    ...Yet this is simply the truth, that's what they set out to achieve.


    Not liking it is preference, of course... but when you say, "wouldn't suffer from a good RT option", that is literally damaging the game through bypassing the core combat system, and replacing it with one that does not simulate the PnP system.

    *As you probably know, encounter design in the game suffers; it is not suitable for realtime play; it is intended for the expected TB combat in the game.
    __________

    Am I wrong in assuming that you don't like Fallout? (That you just like the IP setting?)
    This (to me) is is akin to liking —only— the Warhammer 40 setting, but not the game itself.

    Is this how you see it?
     
  16. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    I do love the warhammer setting. Not the game though. I don't like tabletop games that much... They seem inefficient, keep making me think that they would be a lot more fun to play if we could just automate all the rule watching, calculating points and bonuses and such. Moreover, the only reason I even noticed the 40k universe is because of the stunning Astartes video. This thing:


    Oh, no, I love fallout. I started my journey from fo2, but I played it like at least ten times from the beginning to the end. Well, I was a kid back when I first started. I got it as a present with like a 40 pages of printed walkthrough. I distinctly remember my parents leaving and me having all night to figure out this game. Aaaand... I spent at least two hours before I figured how to open the first temple door. I didn't know you were supposed to hold the mouse button and move the cursor. I still don't know why it's assumed to be obvious. It's not.

    Anyhow, I likely played all forks/mods/remakes/whatever of fo2. Also tried a lot of fonline servers, even participated in scripting, map/quest/dialogue making. I can definitely say that I adore fallout 2.

    Honestly, I would probably dislike the idea of rt in fo2 if I didn't get accustomed to it in fonline. Now I just see tb as, in most cases, needlessly slowing the process.

    Well, but I also change my interface completely. Cuz in fonline, you wanna be a bit more efficient. Yeah... And the default ft2 interface is not very cool. Lulz:

    Code:
    https://i.imgur.com/68VQ6h1.jpg
    An interface like that would probably be seen as sacrilege by you :) And yet, it's very fallout :) Fallout on drugs :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
  17. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    This is the crux of it; not all players see it that way. Some see the process as the point of playing it. shrug.gif

    Some see the fights as a mini-game in between the story, and exploration; others see the story and exploration as filler in between the combat.

    Mortal Kombat comes to mind. RT nature of it aside, who plays it for the story? Myth:TFL would be just as great a game were it set in the Halo universe instead. Gameplay is paramount to games.
     
  18. Cthulchu

    Cthulchu First time out of the vault

    11
    Sep 27, 2014
    sure, only I see it as folks who are attached to tb in fo2 are attached to it not cuz it's a central part of the game, blah-blah, but just cuz they haven't tried or haven't developed an acquired taste to rt. Very simple and no vague rationalizations :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2022
  19. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Antediluvian as Feck

    Nov 26, 2007
    Acquired taste is exactly it—but this goes in both directions. Turn based is also an acquired taste, and can be very aptly said of those who dislike it as not having the acquired taste.

    nutella&vegemite.jpg

    Fallout can be likened to Vegemite, where Diablo can be likened to Nutella. On the surface both of each can seem very similar, but they far far removed from each other, and neither experience is interchangeable to the consumer. One simply does not offer the pleasure of the other, and vise versa.

    To state that either is —better— than the other is naive; they do not compete in the same arenas. It's like comparing muscle cars to sail boats.
     
  20. The_Den_Resident

    The_Den_Resident It Wandered In From the Wastes

    171
    Jan 26, 2022

    :scratch: Waaaatt?

    Is this what you're looking for?
    https://www.myheritage.com/names/dewey_goldstein