Favorite Fallout 3 Quest

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by TheodoreRoosevelt, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    All of those elements are also consistent with the Imperialism within Ancient Rome. You're clutching at straws here.

    And also, as I said. Just because 1 element is a critique of fascism, doesn't mean the ENTIRETY of it is. As I said previously, you could have said it in a completely different way and bring up the rest of the Legion's inspiration, but you didn't, which is why we are having this conversation, sweetie.
    First of all, I used this a recent example of Imperialism to contrast my claim of Caesar's Legion being inspired by Ancient Rome.

    Secondly, it was still an Empire, which is why I used it as an example. I could've used the Empire of Billy Buck Fuck and it would've made no difference. I wasn't drawing a comparison to the actual specifics of the culture itself.

    Thirdly, I was trying to say that these are the Empires one thinks of when they think "Empire". Ancient Rome especially. Which is what Caesar's Legion's aesthetic is trying to replicate.
    AnCap by definition is the elimination of a complete and legislative state in favor of private corporations and businesses.

    House takes many of his fundamental beliefs from this philosophy, however, instead of advocating for a free market, which is a fundamental concept of AnCap, he is Imperialistic in nature and wants everything for himself.

    Therefore, while House is AnCap by nature, he also takes many of his strategies from Imperialism. I never argued against this idea. I was merely stating that House is the leader of a corporation (RobCo) who also wants to claim territories for his own while also making them private and capitalistic, as evidenced by him defending The Strip from the bombs during the Great War, becoming the de facto leader of it, and then using that private land that is now his to make profit off of the casinos. That is AnCap by nature. To deny this is to deny reality.

    Then we agree.

    Everything is a possible interpretation, dummy, especially when it comes to factions that are literally a blend of multiple different ideologies and philosophies.

    The only solid tangible fact is how much of those ideologies are represented within their core principles.

    Holy shit, you don't know your own game. Try playing it once in a while and reading the wiki maybe.

    Two fucking endings. Two.

    One of them implies that the riots started and the securitrons were unable to put an end to them.

    One of them implies that the riots started and the securitrons were able to put an end to them, but they still fucking happened, and no amount of death will stop that.

    This means that anarchy exists and the riots began, just that the securitrons are either unable or able to squash them.

    Then of course the people accept the anarchistic state. Not that they accept it because any sort of rule or legislature was spawned.
  2. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I literally do not know how I'm supposed to convince you that the faction that literally believes that the NCR are a bunch of degenerates and that they have a moral crusade to overthrow them, where the people involved are hell-bent on traditionalism to the point where it actively hinders them, where the leader literally describes his ideal state as a totalitarian, hyper-nationalist regime, and where the writers have literally cited academic essays written about Fascism to explain design choices they made in regards to Legion, are fascists. Like, you'd think given literally everything I've cited, this would be really on the nose. Especially the fact that the writers literally cite essays about fascism in regards to design choices.

    Like, literally every single fact is in favour of my interpretation, yet you keep arguing. The music has stopped, yet you're still dancing.

    Also, no. Rome wasn't ideologically trying to be totalitarian, nor did it obsess over putting down "Degeneracy". It was a dictatorship and then an Empire, but that was more due to internal power dynamics then any ideological commitment to authoritarianism.

    Legion, as portrayed in New Vegas, is more akin to Fascism than the Romans, in that it's an attempt to recreate an imagined past through hyper-nationalist dictatorship, while ignoring basically everything about how the Romans actually operated.
    This fundementally sums up my entire agreement: The point is you're saying that because New Vegas is structured in a way built around Private Ownership and without a state, that therefore Mr House's philosophical and belief systems are AnCap.

    The reason I take issue with your point is that, realistically Anarcho-Capitalism is an IDEOLOGY not something that exists in reality, and if the Ideology espoused by a character is not actually the Ideology expressed, then it's stupid to say that he's that ideology.

    Like, by your logic, every single Warlord would be an AnCap, since they take control of areas using Private Armies, and the draw profit from the fact that they rule it as their own personal fiefdom.
    Neither of these mention Riots, nor do they mention Freeside. YOU are pushing that interpretation

    They just mention that things are a little chaotic at first without anyone in control, but people soon settle down and adjust to the new regime.

    The point I was making was that you could make the case you were making, but had to make it in a factually correct way:

    "It's literally stated in the end slideshows that riots happen in Freeside and anarchy reigns" is literally, factually incorrect, because the ending slideshow mention neither riots nor Freeside. Those are INTERPRETATIONS you PERSONALLY have.
  3. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    Like Caesar is literally a German Idealist. I don't know how much more obviously you can make a character a fascist without just doing the Frontier Wolfenstein pastiche
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  4. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    So according to this thread

    Cult of personality = LITERALLY FASCISM
    Imperialism = LITERALLY FASCISM
    Using the word "degeneracy" = LITERALLY FASCISM

    I can't make this shit up lol. You really are delusional. You don't have any understanding of the political ideologies of which you state.

    I use the word "degeneracy" from time to time. Guess I'm literally HITLER then.

    Oh, NCR must be fascists too then, and House, and Caesar. Oh I guess even Yes Man is a fascist! He takes House's technology in the Lucky 38 without asking and transfers his consciousness and programming into there without any regard for House.

    You are literally delusional. Let me pick straws on where you're from:

    Or are you just some insane leftist that thinks everyone is a fascist because they want to go back to the "good old days"?

    In that case, I guess Trump is a fascist by your own criteria too, considering his motto is literally "Make America Great Again".

    There's no nuance in the things you say. You ignore the blatant differences and contrasts between ideologies and you just jump to calling everything fascist without consideration for anything else the Legion is blatantly inspired by.

    Here's a question: If Sawyer and co. wanted to make the Legion literally fascists? Why wouldn't they have done that? Gave them Nazi SS outfits and Wehrmacht apparel? Why did they instead choose to go for the Roman aesthetic?

    I'm waiting for you to cite that essay again as though it means anything. Read the post he was quoting. He was talking about their attitudes on technology. NOT their entire fucking ideology outside of that. NOT their economic policies, legislature, attitudes, etc , etc.

    Fascism is rooted within nationalism and ethnic superiority. Tell me, where is this represented in Caesar's Legion?
  5. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    I mean



    Nazi-Party-rally-Nurnberg-Germany-1933.jpg main-qimg-eff524b40486006b031b20d1730041f9.jpg
  6. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    "Oh, so this character's literal stated goals are to create a Totalitarian, Culturally Homogenous, Hypernationalist dictatorship that purges degeneracy and believes the individual's main value is as part of a cohesive nation state. Well that sounds nothing like Fascism"

    "The writers of this game literally wrote this faction while reading academic essays about fascism for inspiration. That's just a coincidence."
    That's not what Fascism is.

    Legion is Fascist because they're Ideologically almost identical to Fascism. NCR and House are not.
    Creating and citing a mythologised version of the past specifically designed to justify present ideologies is a hallmark of fascism.

    This doesn't mean literally everyone who does it is a fascist: an ideology can have vague resemblence to fascism without actually being it.

    Legion is Fascist because they literally have every single trait associated with fascism, and the writers themselves have admitted to having wrote them with fascism as a consideration.
    Because they expect you to read subtext.

    Sorry that you need your handheld, and to be shown people in SS uniforms to believe someone is fascist, because you can't adknowldge someone believes something unless they are aesthetically shown to be identical to it.
  7. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    Strawman argument. Never said that.

    What I did say was that the faction may have had one or two elements based on fascism, but that doesn't mean they are fascists entirely.

    Also Sawyer was talking about TECHNOLOGY. Attitudes on TECHNOLOGY. I'm literally arguing with a brainlet who doesn't understand nuance.

    I personally think that the economy should be based on a free market. Does that make me Anarcho-Capitalist?
    No they are not. I have listed reasons why they are not. You refuse to acknowledge them.
    One hallmark of fascism =/= literal fascism
    But one element of the Legion has a "vague resemblance", not ALL of it.

    The Legion is not ONE element, they are MULTIPLE. If one element of their ideology is fascist in nature, this does NOT mean they are fascists. What do you not understand?
    Oh shit, he's retarded.

    Sawyer has admitted to writing the TECHNOLOGICAL views of the Legion with consideration to Fascism

    Not the ECONOMICAL views of the Legion
    Not the SOCIAL views of the Legion
    Not the SOCIOECONOMIC views of the Legion
    Not the RACIAL views of the Legion
    Not the SCIENTIFIC views of the Legion
    Not the PHILOSOPHICAL views of the Legion
    The TECHNOLOGICAL views of the Legion

    What do you not understand dummy?
    Unlike everything else in New Vegas, which requires an unhealthy and obtrusive amount of exposition for you brainlets to grasp.
    But not this element, holy shit. Not this one separate, isolated element.
    Because I say so.
    I don't need my hand held, you clearly do to prefer something as elementary-tier as Fallout 1/2 and New Vegas though.
  8. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    The entire ideology Caesar proposes is based on Fascism. Literally, every stated goal or belief of the Legion is fascistic.
    Fascism doesn't have an economic view, fundementally. It's based on whatever works for their longterm goals.

    The Economy of Mussolini and Hitler varied wildly. Hell even the economic views of the early Nazis differs from the Later Nazis.

    Fascists were far more interested in appealing to whoever would enable them to come to power than they were in concrete economic doctrines.
    They're obsession with there enemies being sick degenerates, the consistent belief that "Degeneracy" is leading to the downfall of civilisation isn't fascist?
    "It means a nationalist, imperialist, totalitarian, homogenous culture that obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production." -Caesar

    Jesus fucking Christ, Caesar is literally saying that his ideal state is a fascist one, he's literally describing a fascist state and saying "This is what I'm aiming for". This isn't difficult.
    The majority of New Vegas requires you actually interpret the facts you're given.

    For instance: the game never says "The NCR is practicing settler Colonialism" outright, rather it SHOWS you what Settler Colonialism looks like, and expects you to put the pieces toghether.
    The game is literally telling you to your face that Legion is fascist, in every single way, except directly outright stating it.

    Caesar literally describes the kind of state he wants to create as totalitarian, hypernationalist and culturally homogenous. The game expects you to take five seconds of thought and figure "Hey this sounds like fascism", but apparently that's beyond some people's abilities.
    Fallout 3 doesn't have much exposition, because the plot is so simple and mindless that explaining complex things like New Vegas does, with how the economy of the NCR works, how the farming works, how these factors effect their war efforts, would be beyond the scope of what the writers have bothered to think through.
  9. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    Look at this idiot. "Fascism doesn't have an economic view". HAHAHAHHAHAHA.

    The whole reason Fascism was adopted in Nazi Germany was because of it's "economic views" idiot. That's why Germany went from being a compact, shitty, economically flattened state under Weimar to a European power strong enough to take over half of Europe during the second World War.

    You're only getting stupider more and more you type, you're only revealing how poorly informed you are.

    This isn't exclusive to FASCISM, retard.
    Uh... he literally says IMPERIALIST and NATIONALIST, idiot.

    But never ONCE does he say FASCIST.

    I wonder why.
    No it doesn't. Many conversations has about 45 minutes worth of dialogue. This breaks up gameplay and ruins the enjoyment for many players.

    The way Bethesda does this is far more interpretative, allowing the player to discover the lore via holotapes, lore entries, environmental storytelling, etc, etc.

    Play Fallout 76. Never in any other game is this represented as well.

    Meanwhile New Vegas hands everything to you in dialogue. Gives you the interpretation you're supposed to believe, the view you're supposed to adopt.

    Every TES is better, as TES has an unreliable narrators, and multiple NPCs have different interpretations on things. New Vegas NPCs are always right and always consistent with factual lore.
    Neither does any other Fallout game apart from 1 or 2. You're literally colonizing the wasteland in Fallout 4, but you're not literally called colonials, are you?
    Many other ideologies have the same hallmarks, yet you make the illogical jump to fascism.
    No. You are the only one who done this because you're too ill-informed to detect nuance.
    Explore the world. Environmental storytelling reveals a lot of this and nobody has to sit through a 60 minute dialogue either.
  10. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    This is legitimately hilarious

    "Josh Sawyer was only citing that paper about Fascism to explain the Legion's stance on technology" is funny enough as it is.

    But my point in that statement, if you actually read it, was that Legion, as written, is fascist in every regard.
    The Nazis had no consistent economic doctrine. They would often state that policies they implemented were final, but then negotiate with Cartels to change them.

    Their original economic plan, the Feder Plan, was completely abandoned within a couple years because they instead decided to appeal to racist aristocrats, who didn't like the more economically redistributive elements of the plan.

    Fascist Economics is based on a principle of negotiating with whoever helps you get in to power. They didn't have any economic ideology: they co-operated with people who they thought would help them. That's the extent to which the Nazis had an economic policy.

    Fascism isn't an economic ideology. It's an aesthetic one.
    Yeah, it's not like Degeneracy was one of the main talking points of Fascism.
    This is honestly a fucking meme.

    "He might say that he wants a hyper-nationalist, totalitarian, hyper-traditionalist state that's hellbent on purging degeneracy, glorifies the past, and reduces the individual to a component of the nation state.

    But he never directly calls himself a Fascist"

    I like how he can literally suggest that what he wants in a state is the same thing fascists want in a state, BUT THAT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU.
    Gee, it's not like the NCR being Settler Colonialists who disregard the rights of native people IS LITERALLY A MAJOR PLOT POINT AND CRITICISM OF THEM IN GAME.

    Jesus wept.
    "Actually I'll have you know that a lot of ideologies are Totalitarian, Hypernationalist, built around an imagined past, obsessed with purging degeneracy, obsessed with cultural homogoneity, dictatorial and traditionalist"

    Like what? Literally that just describes fascism.
    "This couple died from drug overdose" VS "The NCR is governed by a group of Brahmin Barons, corrupt Senators are using violence against Supermutants to justify votes, the war is unpopular at home but nobody dares oppose it in the senate, the NCR is reliant on electricity and water from New Vegas"

    One game actually needs to convey complex information to you about how the political and economic system of an entire Nation work.

    I'd like to see you explain the entire way the political and economic system of the NCR works, without loss of any of the information currently in game, using solely environmental storytelling.

    Seriously, New Vegas tells you so much about the internal functioning of the NCR, that I'd honestly like to see you write that without using words but only environmental storytelling. It'd be impossible to do without losing any of the information conveyed.
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  11. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    Jogre quit wasting the motion of your fingers to type this shit out. It's not worth it. I do admire their tenacity though.
  12. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    Okay, if the Legion are literally fascists that's okay. I'll just use that as a point against you.

    Wow. Look at the Legion, they're literally Nazis. Holy fuck. The writing in New Vegas is so poor. Can't they form other ideologies? Can't they take inspiration from other ideologies?

    Well shit. I guess New Vegas is literally Wolfenstein II: Borderlands.

    Where in that paper does it mention Caesar's Legion explictly? lmao.

    Doubt anyone well-versed in Political Science is going to make a dissertation on New Vegas.
    Yep. Cool outfits are the name of the game when it comes to Fascism and Nazis.

    Uh... Caesar's Legion doesn't even have that though? They literally wear baseball gear.

    Seriously, read up the definition of the word "aesthetic".

    Okay, I will concede that Fascism does not have a clear cut economic doctrine.

    I will however, state that it does have an identifiable or correlative economic doctrine which has been observed in many different instances of Fascist societies.

    Caesar's economical structure does not take inspiration from this.

    And also, you convieniently used this one point to smokescreen the other points I was making.
    Degeneracy is a main talking point of many political ideologies, idiot.
    So you're telling me he's aware he's a TOTALITARIAN
    he's aware he's an IMPERIALIST
    he's aware that he's a NATIONALIST
    but he's not aware he's a FASCIST

    if he stated all of those ideologies, why didn't he state fascism? because we're supposed to connect the dots?
    I mean, we could've connected the dots to assume he's totalitarian, but you're just disregarding that.

    Not my point. Re-read.
    Political ideologies are not clear cut moron.

    I can call myself a Free-Market lovin', culturally liberal, economically isolationist, accelerationistic, pseudointellectual.

    What does this describe?
    Yep, and one game can make it explcit via actually playing the game and not dawdling my thumbs my listening to some idiot drone on for 20 minutes.
    Not for a good game designer. I can tell you're too much of a brainlet to do so.
  13. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    You're not gonna get in his bed any other way I suppose.
  14. SquidWard

    SquidWard Pirate and Bankrobber oTO Orderite

    Jun 1, 2018
    Fuck you and your double posts you halfwit.
  15. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    Too much sodium in your diet. Cool off, sweetie.
  16. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I know you think you're doing something clever here, but you missed the point by a square mile:

    Having factions represent real world ideologies isn't bad. Unoriginality is bad.

    Since New Vegas creates an entire world, with complex nation states fighting for material goals, and does so in an original and interesting way, that's different to just slapping the most generic cookie cutter AI story in a game and saying "That's good enough to be deep" without putting any thought in to it.
    This is astronomically stupid.

    "Why didn't the academic paper that inspired the writers of New Vegas, mention New Vegas?"

    Fucking hell.
    Maybe, just maybe, when I called Fascism "Aesthetic" I was referencing the work of the philosopher Walter Benjamin who argued that Fascism is fundementally aesthetic, creating a doctrine of revivalism of the nation state, to avoid scoring concrete economic goals.

    It's almost like different historical contexts create different situations, and that a nomadic army in a post-apocalyptic wasteland espousing Fascist doctrines is going to have different economic, social and material needs to 20th century states.

    Please explain to me any nation or faction anywhere near as complex as the NCR in Fallout 3.

    Because I could write paragraphs and paragraphs at all the political and economic facts we find out about the NCR AND how they effect the gameworld.

    There's so much information about the NCR, that if they didn't tell you all of it, some of it would be lost, because it's impossible to have that complex of a discussion about an entire nation boiled down purely in being shown.
    It's almost like it plays a special role in Fascism.
    Caesar doesn't literally have to say "I'm a fascist" to infer it from context.
    A trump supporter who pretends to be a centrist because they think they'll get less shit for it.
    Except literally nothing in Fallout 3 is as complex as the NCR is in New Vegas.

    The NCR literally is an entire nation with it's own economic and political system, and the game needs to demonstrate that somehow.

    Besides, you've literally avoided answering a direct question I asked: How can the game communicate all the various political and economic struggles in the NCR through environmental storytelling?

    Please tell me how you would personally express ALL the information told through exposition through environmental storytelling with NO LOSS OF INFO. Unless you can come up with a good way of doing that, I don't think it's possible.
  17. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Chemistry Teacher

    Feb 17, 2021
    If you think the only good thing about FNV factions is that they represent real world ideologies, you have already conceded.

    My point isn't that this is bad. Quite the opposite actually. My point was that Caesar's Legion are a bit more than merely "fascists". They have that as one element of their overall existence in their views on technology, but they are not entirely fascist.
    You're literally arguing against your own point. Congrats.
    Well you are implying that it is COMPLETELY representative of the Legion, as though the writers had this bookmarked when they wrote the Legion. I'm arguing that it may have been an inspiration, but the writers surely had other things in mind when they created the faction too.
    Cite it next time then and stop being a pseud. Not scoring any cookie points for that.
    Not my point.
    NCR weren't in Fallout 3.
    Wow me using the word degenerate means I am a fascist.

    Walter White using word fascist means he is fascist.

    Whole world using word fascist means they are fascist.
    So we can't infer he's a totalitarian or imperialist from context either?
    You're retarded then. Nothing new here.
    By placing holotapes, lore entries, etc. I'm not a game designer, but neither are you.
  18. Norzan

    Norzan Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 7, 2017
    What's the difference between a shitty lore entry or holotape, and a living character telling you all the information? Literally none, except the fact you have to actually design and model a character and give them a personality. Why do that when you can just lazily plaster diaries and holotapes all around and call it a day.
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  19. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I don't think that's what makes them good. I think it's a basic fact about the way they are written.
    "Please point me to information conveyed in Fallout 3 that's equally as complex as information conveyed in Fallout New Vegas"

    "But Fallout 3 doesn't have the exact same factions as Fallout New Vegas"

    learn basic reading comprehension my dude.
    Being a totalitarian doesn't NECESSARILY make you a fascist either, but it's one of the hallmarks of it.

    It's almost like, there's a reason that Obsidian wrote the Legion around using the term Degenerate, and it has to do with what they were trying to convey about them.
    You mad because I accurately described your belief system?
    So instead of having people tell you how the NCR works.

    Have it all written down on a computer terminal so people can read it.

    You realise that's not only the exact same thing, but it's even more exposition because it's literally putting a written record on how things work so that it doesn't come up organically in conversation.

    Like, that's legit a worse suggestion than what's in the game.
  20. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 7, 2015
    Fascism is the ideology that moreso than any other centers degeneracy/decadence in its worldview. Of course it doesn't mean that anyone who uses decadence as a concept is a fascist, but it is one of fascisms traits, and it does put more emphasis on it than any other ideology. Caesar's argument is basically Spengler's cycles of civilization