Favorite Fallout 3 Quest

[Jogre]

"This game was written by Marxists and has elements of Marxism in, therefore I don't need to articulate an actual arguement as to why the game is bad, or propose any reasons I dislike it, I can just point out that it was written by Marxists and dismiss it on principle." -Heisenberg McCarthy

Boy howdy dude, you're sure a mature individual who's capable of accepting a wide variety of discussion in your games. You're someone who's

 

[Hardboiled Android]

"This game was written by Marxists and has elements of Marxism in, therefore I don't need to articulate an actual arguement as to why the game is bad, or propose any reasons I dislike it, I can just point out that it was written by Marxists and dismiss it on principle." -Heisenberg McCarthy

Boy howdy dude, you're sure a mature individual who's capable of accepting a wide variety of discussion in your games. You're someone who's

To make it even richer, these are the same people who complain about politics in video games and cancel culture. The political predelictions of a game's designers doesn't affect how good a game it is.

 

[Heisenberg]

Nah. I just don't care enough to play a game made for commies, by commies.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

Nah. I just don't care enough to play a game made for commies, by commies.

Separate art from artist

 

[Heisenberg]

As I said, you can't separate art from artist when the art is a product of the artist's degeneracy.

A piece of music about something completely unrelated? That's cool
A video game about something completely unrelated? That's cool too.
A video game about something related to the warped delusional perspective of the artist? No way.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

As I said, you can't separate art from artist when the art is a product of the artist's degeneracy.

A piece of music about something completely unrelated? That's cool
A video game about something completely unrelated? That's cool too.
A video game about something related to the warped delusional perspective of the artist? No way.

i haven't played disco elysium yet so explain what about this product is a product of the artist's communist leanings. I agree however when the art is a product of the artist's degeneracy then yeah you can't separate the art from the artist. but i don't know if this is the case here.

 

[TorontoReign]

I didn't even read the entire post and I know what he is talking about because the political leaning in that game is blatantly obvious towards the commie side. Score 1 for the meth head. I got pegged as not liking Socialisms enough for not choosing sides after a couple bits of dialog. Actually it was implied that I condone racisms because I did not get into a fight with someone who was saying racist shit at their own store front.

 

[Heisenberg]

Fallout 3/4 represents everything great about democracy and free will, liberty. You have Liberty Prime, this massive huge hulking robot who crushes commies for sport.

Then you have Disco Elysium, a game that centers around communism, SJWism and pseudointellectualism.

Which one do you think most users here are going to love and which one do you think they are going to hate?

 

[Norzan]

By your retarded logic, if a single person gave a 90 to Fallout 3, while 10 gave between 85 to 95 to Witcher 3, giving it a 90 average, that means Fallout 3 is better.

Lol, meant Witcher 3 would be the better game, not Fallout 3. Even after quoting it to make a point in another post, i didn't noticed the mistake. Stupid ass games with the same numerical number.

Proof reading is for pussies anyway. And also unironically thinking critic reviews matter in the slightest, and are not just a hype bandwagon caused by an huge marketing push by a company.

 

[Alphons]

 

[SquidWard]

It's weird, one might think these conversations would be interesting but dipshits like this can't even half assedly try to be anything but dull. Either he stays and becomes the next resident shitlord (likely to go off the deep end eventually and get banned as most resident shitlords do) or leaves before seasons change.

 

[Heisenberg]

He's been here since 2017 so I doubt anything will change. He's just going to keep shitposting Marty Robbins clips.

 

[Jogre]

To make it even richer, these are the same people who complain about politics in video games and cancel culture. The political predelictions of a game's designers doesn't affect how good a game it is.

I'd honestly go further than that, and say game designers belief systems do affect the product, but that's a good thing. For instance: it's pretty well known by this point that Josh Sawyer, lead designer of New Vegas, is a major Leftist, and this inherently comes through in the game: The NCR is sort of a criticism of US Imperialism, with them using legal loopholes to get around torture laws, settling in other people's lands and then driving them out, keeping a military presence in a region that doesn't want them to secure geopolitical goals, ect., and Legion serves as a criticique of Fascism, ect.

Very few pieces of media are apolitical, especially games: so when the designers have a clear framework by which they view the political, it effectively allows them to have clearer literary visions for the game they are writing. I'd say the key example of this is Spec Ops the Line: all games that handle war and militarism are inherently political, but most of them try and skip over this, and as a result make games that are inadvertendly jingoistic. Spec Ops the Line goes a step further and says "What if we actually critiqued the real world problems that this genre actually represents", and as a result it's remembered fondly to this day.

Basically, provided it's treated in a clever and well-thought out way, having a framework by which you engage the world with, in my mind, encourages creativity, not hinders it.

 

[Heisenberg]

Legion serves as a criticique of Fascism

Do you even know your own favorite game?

NCR is a critique of US imperialism
Legion is a critique of ancient imperialism
House is a critique of autocracy and anarcho-capitalism
Independent is a realistic interpretation on an anarchistic society

Legion isn't a critique of Fascism. It takes just as much from Fascism as The Third Reich took from the Holy Roman Empire and the Ancient Roman Empire. Hence why they copied the Roman salute.

Both main factions are parallels of each other. Both are imperialistic, yet in vastly different ways.

The key thing to note here however, is that most would much prefer to live under modern US imperialism than Ancient Rome's take on it. That's what castrates the Legion from being an actually believable faction in a post-apocalyptic world, especially when contrasted with the NCR, which as previously stated, is far more preferable.

House and Independent are foils of each other too.

House is concerned with his territories, his lands, his casinos and his people. Not anyone else. He's purely concerned with profit and the things he could do with that profit.

Independent is complete anarchy with zero law. What castrates this however is that Independent is also a player faction so many people headcanon that their Courier's placed some form of tangible legislation or constitution in post-Battle of Hoover Dam, which considering the canon outcomes, it completely retarded.

 

[Jogre]

Do you even know your own favorite game? Legion is a critique of ancient imperialism

Here's JESawyer literally citing Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism to explain why Legion's attitudes towards technology are contradictory.

You'd think that the actual designer of the game suggesting that Legion was written to show the contradictions of fascism, and was inspired by Umberto Eco's essay on ur-fascism, would be proof that that's literally what was intended, no?


Maybe actually look in to what the developers of the game have actually said before assuming a reading is incorrect to their intentions.

House is a critique of autocracy and anarcho-capitalism

House being an AnCap is a possible interpretation, but one that I wouldn't bank too much on, given that House literally, canonically acts as a state that's capable of violent expansionism, taxing his citizens, ect.

"Despite NCR's pledge to support Primm, they abandon the town after their loss to Mr. House. As repayment for their NCR loyalty, Mr. House sends Securitrons to Primm to "protect" it and collect heavy taxes from its citizens." -Primm Ending
"To vend anything here on the Strip, you got to register with one of those police robots and sign a franchisee agreement. At the end of each day, you keep half of what you made." -Street Vendor
"Accusing The Kings of lying with a foreign invader for their newfound ties to the NCR, Mr. House punished them by ordering their forced removal. The Kings, defiant to the end, were destroyed to the last man by House's Securitrons" - Kings Ending
"Flush with his victory, Mr. House sent Securitrons into Freeside, thinking to increase his control over the area. When fighting broke out, The Kings fought valiantly, but were no match for the armored killing machines, and were wiped out to the last man" -Kings Ending

Maybe it's a critique of AnCaps by pointing out that a lot of their ideology is reliant on violent enforcement of property rights: however from a purely ideological standpoint, House is as much of an expansionist as any of the other factions. He certainly isn't abiding by any NAP.

His own description of his ideology is:
"I have no interest in abusing others, just as I have no interest in legislating or otherwise dictating what people do in their private time. Nor have I any interest in being worshipped as some kind of machine god. I am impervious to such corrupting ambitions. But Firm control in the hands of a technological and economic visionary? Yes, that Vegas shall have." -Mr House

House by his own account is interested mostly in centralising power in his own hands, because he views himself as ultimately altruistic and a force for good for mankind. Really he's more of a narcissist who views himself as a Great Man of History and a singular visionary leading the world out of the era it's in. This can be seen from his obituary.

Independent is complete anarchy with zero law. What castrates this however is that Independent is also a player faction so many people headcanon that their Courier's placed some form of tangible legislation or constitution in post-Battle of Hoover Dam, which considering the canon outcomes, it completely retarded.

Independent is actually quite a lot of different concepts tied in to one: Yes Man implies that the point is to take power for yourself, Benny implies it's about kicking the two main factions, neither are good enough for Vegas out, Arcade implies that the point is ideological anarchism. It's confusing to say the least.

Though I take issue with your use of the word "Canon outcomes", there's no such thing as a "Canon Outcome" for the Independent ending since the one thing that unifies the varying different concepts involved IS THAT THE STATE OF THE WORLD IS DEPENDENT ON THE PLAYER'S ACTIONS. How stable and safe Vegas is largely depends on how they dealt with groups like the Fiends, the Brotherhood, ect., either they cause a major hassle, build their own little areas of control, or are dealt with in a way that means they no longer cause a threat.

Independent by definition is as stable as the player has made it out to be through the ways they dealt with the various factions.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Independent by definition is as stable as the player has made it out to be through the ways they dealt with the various factions.

There's definitely a large degree to which the player can make things better or worse, but even the most "safe" Yes Man ending is still entirely defined by being unstable at the very least in the short-term if not for the duration. It's not entirely player shaped.

 

[Heisenberg]

Here's JESawyer literally citing Umberto Eco's essay on Ur-Fascism to explain why Legion's attitudes towards technology are contradictory.

You'd think that the actual designer of the game suggesting that Legion was written to show the contradictions of fascism, and was inspired by Umberto Eco's essay on ur-fascism, would be proof that that's literally what was intended, no?

One element of fascism doesn't mean the entire faction is based off of fascism, sweetie.

You are literally deluded. On one hand you are arguing New Vegas's factions have much depth and many interpretations and inspirations, then on the other hand you are arguing that one of them is a clear cut crystal copy of fascism.

Probably some elements are there to criticize fascism, such as the nature of the cult of personalities it spawns, but to claim one element represents the basis of the entire faction it is based upon is blatantly false.

In the post you just listed, Sawyer only links to the essay on Fascism to comment on one isolated aspect of the Legion. In reality, the Legion is a culmination of many different separate aspects.

If the Legion were that clear cut to label it all fascism, you wouldn't be defending them right now, or you wouldn't have a leg to stand on even if you were.

Similarly, House is a critique of anarcho-capitalism. Does that mean he's literally the monopoly man? Not at all. That's certainly the main ideology he possesses, but is it EVERYTHING about his character? Not at all. You have some corporatism thrown in there with his RobCo past, probably some accelerationism with him hinging on technology and revolt to thwart the NCR, as well as his actual physical reliance on technologies which keep him alive and stable.

Maybe it's a critique of AnCaps by pointing out that a lot of their ideology is reliant on violent enforcement of property rights: however from a purely ideological standpoint, House is as much of an expansionist as any of the other factions. He certainly isn't abiding by any NAP.

I didn't say House wasn't an expansionist, I implied he wasn't a clear cut Imperialist, at least in comparison to his peers.

Though I take issue with your use of the word "Canon outcomes", there's no such thing as a "Canon Outcome" for the Independent ending since the one thing that unifies the varying different concepts involved IS THAT THE STATE OF THE WORLD IS DEPENDENT ON THE PLAYER'S ACTIONS

It's literally stated in the end slideshows that riots happen in Freeside and anarchy reigns. That puts a hole in anyone's thought that the Courier somehow immediately implemented any sort of law or order.

 

[Jogre]

One element of fascism doesn't mean the entire faction is based off of fascism, sweetie.

You are literally deluded. On one hand you are arguing New Vegas's factions have much depth and many interpretations and inspirations, then on the other hand you are arguing that one of them is a clear cut crystal copy of fascism.

Where did I say "Legion is literally a clear cut crystal copy of Fascism"

I didn't.

I said the designers wrote the Legion around being fascists. I didn't say it was a one-to-one perfect comparison.

I'm arguing an obvious point which is backed up by what the developers themselves have said.

Probably some elements are there to criticize fascism, such as the nature of the cult of personalities it spawns, but to claim one element represents the basis of the entire faction it is based upon is blatantly false.

I never claimed it was the entirety of the faction.

I claimed it was written with fascism in mind. That's literally true, and yet you acted like I was making an incorrect interpretation because "Ok but there's also Roman elements, not every single aspect is fascism"

Yeah, just because Caesar isn't a reincarnated Mussolini, doesn't mean the point I mad was incorrect.

Similarly, House is a critique of anarcho-capitalism. Does that mean he's literally the monopoly man? Not at all. That's certainly the main ideology he possesses, but is it EVERYTHING about his character? Not at all. You have some corporatism thrown in there with his RobCo past, probably some accelerationism with him hinging on technology and revolt to thwart the NCR, as well as his actual physical reliance on technologies which keep him alive and stable.

Except ideologically he never expresses anything akin to AnCap ideology. The only thing he expresses a desire for is economic and political power so he can lead mankind as a singular empowered autocrat.

He never once expresses that he believes in the principles of Anarcho-Capitalism or anything similar. In fact, I'd say he probably doesn't: Being an AnCap would imply at the very least, that he has some strong ideological commitments to the idea of private property rights. I would argue that his economic commitment to property rights only exists insofar as it's beneficial for his wider goals of "progress at any costs"

I didn't say House wasn't an expansionist, I implied he wasn't a clear cut Imperialist, at least in comparison to his peers.

Except he literally is an Imperialist, as can be seen in how he deals with various independent towns and gangs in the aftermath of taking over.

Just because his ambitions are stuck to the Mojave doesn't mean he's not as much an Imperialist as the other two factions. Forcibly taking over a territory to implement your own vision, with disregard to what the locals think is definitionally Imperialism.

It's literally stated in the end slideshows that riots happen in Freeside and anarchy reigns. That puts a hole in anyone's thought that the Courier somehow immediately implemented any sort of law or order.

There are multiple different endings that happen for Freeside, so this is literally incorrect.

You could have argued the actual areas where the Courier's actions don't change anything, but instead you used factually incorrect info.

 

[Heisenberg]

I said the designers wrote the Legion around being fascists. I didn't say it was a one-to-one perfect comparison.

But... they didn't write the Legion around being fascists.

Writing one element of a character to be a certain way is not "writing them around being fascists". If so, I guess Mickey Mouse is literally how mouses act in real life, seeing as he's written entirely to be a certain way.

I'm arguing an obvious point which is backed up by what the developers themselves have said.

No you're not. You're taking one quote from a developer and using it as a blanket statement to argue that Caesar's Legion are literally fascists.

Legion are not a "critique" of fascism. They have one element that is a critique of fascism. You are literally arguing semantics because you got caught out for being a brainlet and not knowing anything about the game you parrot as being so much better than Bethesda games.

I never claimed it was the entirety of the faction.

and Legion serves as a criticique of Fascism

You could have said "and Legion serves as a critique of ancient Imperialism, expansionism, primitivism AND fascism." but instead you chose to highlight 1 aspect of the faction instead of ALL of them, even when other ideologies are far more present in their design.

Except ideologically he never expresses anything akin to AnCap ideology. The only thing he expresses a desire for is economic and political power so he can lead mankind as a singular empowered autocrat.

Yes he fucking does. Stop lying.

House cares only for HIS territories that HE owns as a corporation. The police force on the Strip is LITERALLY his own robot securitron guard. They are not public, they belong to HIM.

He also doesn't have any form of constitution or concrete law. As long as people aren't causing harm on the strip, he doesn't care. You can shoot McAffery and no-one bats an eye, even Victor who can see you do it.

House being an AnCap is a possible interpretation

You even said it yourself. Stop backtracking.

Except he literally is an Imperialist, as can be seen in how he deals with various independent towns and gangs in the aftermath of taking over.

Which is why I said he has some elements of Imperialism, but it isn't as explicit as other factions and that is a FACT. The other factions are literally written as stereotypes of this ideology. What comes to mind when one thinks Imperialism? British Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Ancient Roman Empire? Legion literally take 2/3rds of their persona from this very stereotype.

You could have argued the actual areas where the Courier's actions don't change anything, but instead you used factually incorrect info.

Citation required.

 

[Jogre]

But... they didn't write the Legion around being fascists.

Writing one element of a character to be a certain way is not "writing them around being fascists". If so, I guess Mickey Mouse is literally how mouses act in real life, seeing as he's written entirely to be a certain way.

Ok, so the group obsessed with "Degeneracy", literally stated by Caesar himself to believe that the individual exists for the sake of the nation, obsessed with hyper-traditionalism, cultural homogeneity isn't fascist.

"It means a nationalist, imperialist, totalitarian, homogenous culture that obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Long-term stability at all costs. The individual has no value beyond his utility to the state, whether as an instrument of war, or production." -Caesar

The writers of this game Totally didn't intend for you to think that the major ideology of Caesar was fascism. That totally wasn't their intention the entire time.

Keep ignoring basic facts about how the game writes Legion if you want.

Which is why I said he has some elements of Imperialism, but it isn't as explicit as other factions and that is a FACT. The other factions are literally written as stereotypes of this ideology. What comes to mind when one thinks Imperialism? British Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Ancient Roman Empire? Legion literally take 2/3rds of their persona from this very stereotype.

First off: you've mentioned the Holy Roman Empire MULTIPLE times now, and I don't think you actually know what it is.

Pretty much the only connection the Holy Roman Empire had to the Romans was the name, and that's mostly because Charlemagne wanted to legitimise his state as a successor state. Politically, culturally, or in pretty much any other way, the Holy Roman Empire was very much a distinct entity.

Also, after the 1000s, it kinda stopped being expansionistic altoghether, given that it effectively operated as a confederation of various states with the Emperor being an elected position. Given that it was barely united, and a lot more resources had to be spent both keeping the Electors happy, and keeping the states content and from warring with one another, it actually had a lot of difficulty being genuinely Imperialist, which is why it didn't engage in Colonialism.


Secondly: NCR materially has to be Imperialist, they're written in such a way that they're political system continuously requires expansion, and the Mojave is just another area they need resources from.

House is an Imperialist because he wants to implement an economic vision for the world with the Mojave as it's capital.

The fact that House is portrayed as less of an Imperialist mostly comes from the fact that he isn't as established, or doesn't have as much of a complex political system as the NCR, not because of actual ideological differences.

Yes he fucking does. Stop lying.

House cares only for HIS territories that HE owns as a corporation. The police force on the Strip is LITERALLY his own robot securitron guard. They are not public, they belong to HIM.

He also doesn't have any form of constitution or concrete law. As long as people aren't causing harm on the strip, he doesn't care. You can shoot McAffery and no-one bats an eye, even Victor who can see you do it.

Yes, Mr House privately owns the Securitron Army. But he doesn't believe in Anarcho-Capitalism, he believes in his specific economic vision of the world, and is willing to forcibly annex and conquer people if if means pushing it is.


The point I was making was that Ideologically, he literally is not an AnCap. He doesn't care about AnCap Ideology, and in fact his ideology comes closer to Technocratic Dictatorship than Anarcho Capitalism.

In order to make the case that House was an AnCap, you'd have to make the case that he literally ideologically believes that, rather than "He owns it privately". Owning your own personal Fiefdom doesn't make you an AnCap.

House only respects property rights insofar as it benefits him, and is more than happy to forcibly annex towns that don't want him there, and tax them without their consent, which is kinda ideologically at odds with what AnCaps proport to believe.

Yes structurally he does run the entire New Vegas strip as a private enterprise.

You even said it yourself. Stop backtracking.

I said it was a POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION.

POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION =/= LITERALLY TRUE.

In fact, if you took literally five seconds to read the next line, you'll notice I said "but one that I wouldn't bank too much on, given that House literally, canonically acts as a state that's capable of violent expansionism, taxing his citizens, ect."

I.E, I was saying that you could make some basic comparisons between House and AnCaps, but I don't personally believe they're helpful given that House acts as a state in most ways, and has no interest in respecting any form of NAP, or considering liberties of those outside his rule.

His main interest is centralising power in his own hands. He has no strict ideological commitments to some abstract notions of liberty or property rights, beyond pragmatic benefits. Ideologically, he has nothing in common.

Citation required.

There are literally 13 endings for Freeside alone, 4 of which are possible to achieve with the No Gods No Masters ending. Only one of them involves riots, and that's specifically if you incite violence between the NCR and The Kings.