Five Lessons Fallout 4 Can Learn From Skyrim

[The Dutch Ghost]

Hello all.

I have not read the IGN article as it would probably be rage inducing for me, but I did read some of the posts here.

In the past I have also spoken with some of the people who have played Skyrim and asked their opinion about it.

Personally I rather have Fallout New Vegas serve as the prototype for Fallout 4, continuing on the good elements (in general well worked out world with its own stories, factions with their own philosophies and goals (not definite good or evil), a storyline that goes from a simple set up to more complex and detailed), and fix on what errors there were in that game that people feel hindered it from being better.

Like many others stated before me, I see new reason why Skyrim's skill system should replace the SPECIAL system and I am opposed to it (sadly its not for me to decide).
As others said, its simply an alternative for grinding in order to reach the next skill level and unlock points.

For me the best road is always a system in which you gradually improve your skills with earned skill points which allow to unlock various paths to continue forward with the occasional situation where you have to wait and come back later because you do not have enough skills yet.


As for making the future Fallout less linear, well truth be told it bordered on it already, and making it even less would feel like turning campaign worlds into sandboxes for retards.

I can understand it is frustrating that the road to New Vegas feels very restricted in the beginning but I myself experienced it more a path where you build up some fundamental skills for later on and meet various factions and settlements, giving you some impressions to base later decisions on.


More interesting worlds depend on the designers and writers that are picked to design it.
You can't expect someone who is not well skilled in it to suddenly create compelling and deep worlds because his or her contract demands it.

 

[Walpknut]

it kind of bothers me that people see these games as part of the same series, more or less. why not TES be the casual exploration adventure and Fallout be the story-heavy rpg?

You're right, TES should be different from Fallout, Fallout being the story-heavy RPG. But it's not the case anymore! It was when it was still Fallout 2 vs Morrowind, but right now, who calls Fallout New Vegas "story-heavy"? Scenario-wise, it was so disappointing, short and uninteresting. At least, in Skyrim it's hard to tell who are the good guys and who are the bad guys... Though Skyrim's scenario/story is uninteresting and not deep either.

wh..... did you even play the godman thing? short and not story heavy? .....


I like playing Skyrim, but it is not what I want an RPG to be, I take it more like a Metroidvania and I really don't like the grinding skill progression, I have to make a shitload of iron armors to be able to imrpove at smithing, I make potions and poisons after potions and poisons and it's still at 35, I prefer the Skill points allocation system, and the level scaling locks out of parts of the game not because of choices you made (wich is better) but by making dungeons impossible to beat bbecause neemies have more HP than they should and your Dragon Bone armor can't protect you much if your battle axe doesn't have the perks you didn't give it and there aren't alternative ways of solving quests. I am still pissed at the Blood on Ice Quest because I actually paid attention to thigns before starting it and tried to do some real detective work instead of just following the white arrow.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Fuck no, please no "skills raise by training" system in Fallout 4. We will already have to endure this engine/first or third person perspective etc, no need to change Fallout even more....

Sure SPECIAL wasn't ever the greatest of them all, but why not work on them instead of scrapping it and injecting the Elder Scrolls system?

The special system as how it was used in Fallout 3 or by Fallout 1/2 ? Because honestly I think for what Fallout tried to achieve the SPECIAL system was better then anything we get today in most RPGs. While you could exploit it it at least left much room to create your character and play it the way you want.

 

[Surf Solar]

Fuck no, please no "skills raise by training" system in Fallout 4. We will already have to endure this engine/first or third person perspective etc, no need to change Fallout even more....

Sure SPECIAL wasn't ever the greatest of them all, but why not work on them instead of scrapping it and injecting the Elder Scrolls system?

The special system as how it was used in Fallout 3 or by Fallout 1/2 ? Because honestly I think for what Fallout tried to achieve the SPECIAL system was better then anything we get today in most RPGs. While you could exploit it it at least left much room to create your character and play it the way you want.

SPECIAL is flawed, even more so in the FO3/NV games... They always wanted to go with the GURPS system for Fallout which would've been better, is more detailed etc... SPECIAL is more like a last minute revamp- they didn't even bother to fix some flaws in FO2. But yeah I agree, it is still way better than everything we have today, especially this clusterfuck like used in Skyrim..

 

[Shang]

What aspects of Skyrim should be in Fallout 4?

1) extremely large and varied area of exploration.


I know Fallout can't possibly have all the snow, rivers, meadows and forests that Skyrim has but it would be great if it has a little variety. The guy in the article mentions point lookout - wouldn't it be nice if there was a small area with that sort of look in the original Fallout 3?
It's the post-apocalyptic world, it has a lot of unused potential.

And one other thing - compare the Throat of the World to, let's say, Black Mountain from New Vegas - which one do you think is really a mountain? I want that in Fallout 4 - a CLIMABLE mountain!

And I want to be able to enter all the freaking buildings, just like in SKyrim. How the fuck is a place like Freeside have only a couple of buildings that can be entered? C'mon, many of the houses in in Skyrim look the same but at least you can enter them ALL.

2) Visuals for crafting of all sorts (and in general, more crafting).

Crafting (smithing, potion making, enchanting, tanning, cooking, etc.) is fun in Skyrim and each of this activies has a SHOWN animation fort it instead of just the craft menu shown. This looks really nice and I want it in Fallout 4! Also - more crafting. Maybe some kind of weapon improving bench (not just pressing x to put on a scope).

3) Ending conversation by simply walking away.

This is great in Skyrim: when you are tired of the conversation you simply press the tab key and walk away. No awkward "goodbye I gotta' go" dialog option needed. Also, the person you are talking to does not stop talking to you when you walk away - this seems more of a real conversation than anything shown in FO3 or New Vegas.

4) Melee wepons have their own finishing moves (not only in VATS).

Loved it in Skyrim, missed it in FO3 and FNV. Maybe this could also be applied to a wider variety of weapons? Could be.

5) Readable books and bookshelves to store them.

I don't mean books that can be read and add skills. I mean books that, like in Skyrim, can actually be READ: the book is opened and you can look at the text page by page. I doubt a lot of people actually do that in Skyrim but it's damn nice to actually have the option.

6) Lack of unreal morality system.

When you steal something and nobody notices it - you don't have to feel bad because no one will think it was you. In Skyrim you can steal everything your friend owns and as long as you don't get caught - no one feels any worse about you for it.

One other thing - when you help someone he might actually let you take a few of the things from his store, home, castle. I would like that sort of NPC gratitude in FO4.

7) More flaura and fauna.

Had a taste of it in FNV but it was taken to its FUN limits in Skyrim. We would want that in FO4. If only for people who have a green thumb or people who liked Sims 3 more than they should

I'll think if there's anything else.

 

[Ohaimerk]

I agree with all that except

6) Lack of unreal morality system.

When you steal something and nobody notices it - you don't have to feel bad because no one will think it was you. In Skyrim you can steal everything your friend owns and as long as you don't get caught - no one feels any worse about you for it.

That's not how karma works. The concept is 'what comes around goes around' where if you do something that is morally wrong like stealing or killing it comes back to you in some form no matter how you or anyone feels about it or whether or not you're caught.

I would like to see it implemented in a better way though, instead of people psychically knowing it was you maybe have certain people steal from you. And a suspicion level would be cool, where stealing things without getting caught they'd suspect the new guy or the hated guy in town but nobody would suspect the saint that saved their lives.

In certain stores and houses in 3 and NV there were a number of stores with 'non-owned' items you could freely take while the owner of the place stares, while just looking at an owned item causes them to make hateful comments about you being a potential thief. "Don't you even think of taking that". That needs to be redone big time.

One other thing - when you help someone he might actually let you take a few of the things from his store, home, castle. I would like that sort of NPC gratitude in FO4.

I haven't beaten NV yet but that actually happens at least once, when you helped that guy with his brahmin in Novac he let you raid his fridge for the excess steak. I'd like a lot more of that and less of the people handing you random stuff out of nowhere occasionally like when you disarm the bomb in Megaton

 

[Izual]

wh..... did you even play the godman thing? short and not story heavy? .....

Oh well, I'm not sure this is an interesting debate or anything, but if you want me to explain my opinion, here it is. Beware, post full of spoilers for both FNV and Skyrim

In short, of course:

FNV is all about the main quest. At least in Skyrim I was able to play 50 hours without going forward in the main quest. That's no big deal, but it sounds important to me. The main problem with that is FNV's main quest, basically, did not entertain me. I mean yeah, let's fight for a town that you don't care about! Come on. After hours in New Vegas, I still didn't give a fuck about New Vegas, an ugly town with 5 buildings. Compared to Fallout 1, it was a game about politics. You awake in your grave and SNAP, you got to get revenge and thus conquer New Vegas. Huuu... No, thanks! What I want is wandering in the wastes (which was basically not possible due to the emptiness of the wasteland and the invisible walls Obsidian put everywhere on small mountains).
Also. In Skyrim, I'm still not able to decide who (of the two main factions Stormcloaks and the Empire) is good and who is bad. Both have good sides and bad sides, and you can't really say one's bad and the other's good. FNV... It was all about helping the bad slaver thugs (but they speak Latin! What a great idea! This way it feels we've created something totally new!) or the good weak army. Or the independantists. What's the big deal anyway? In the end you'll fight in Hoover Dam, and then it's something like: "Hey, thanks for the money spent in buying the game! You're the master of New Vegas now! Bye!".
NPC-wise, I see no difference between Skyrim and New Vegas. Oh, of course New Vegas has more dialogues and more dialogue options and stuff. But Mr. House doesn't hold a candle to the Master. Fallout 1 was all about fighting a perverted dream, an utopia that could save the world but that was condemned to perish (Mutants not being able to have children). That was deep. FNV is not deep, nor story-heavy.

I don't think Fallout 4 should be Skyrim-with-guns. But you can't keep saying Skyrim has nothing that could improve Fo3/FNV.

That's my own opinion, you can of course disagree :p. But I don't think it was wrong all along, or at least, I hope so! Also, sorry for the English mistakes.

 

[Ohaimerk]

The only thing I agree with that is the invisible walls everywhere. That's the worst thing about a game based around exploration, especially when I see an enemy on the radar and I have to walk 50 steps around a small rock instead of 15 to the top of it.

FNV is all about the main quest.

I don't know what FNV you played, but ever since I started the game last week I've put in 40 hours just doing the side quests, I haven't even been to vegas yet. Seems like every town I visit I think "Oh boy, another two hours of side quests" and I'm almost never disappointed. And they're fun too, I've yet to feel like I was doing a chore just to progress.

 

[Vik]

So, just to be sure, everyone here thinks Fallout 3 > Skyrim? Or did I miss the point?

They suck equally. Tried some Skyrim, got the same impression when playing Modern Warfare 3.

Turned off the PC, that is.

Seriously? Skyrim may not be the best rpg of all time, but surely its inspired art design and interesting quests are better than a tasteless and generic fps?

On a side note, I find it rather silly that you would even buy\pirate MW3 without knowing what the hell you were getting.

 

[Akratus]

Speaking of call of duty, i'm probably the only one in the world who liked black ops' silly little story. Yeah it suffers from regular call of duty pacing. Which, if it were a graph, would start in the top left corner and end in the top right corner.

Anyhow, Skyrim I think seemed different than other bethesda games in the beggining, but as you continue it shows that it's more of the same, but alot better. For me, atleast.

It's a better looking world and exploration is slightly less repetetive and there's more quests. As far as choices, reactivity and immersion go. Yeah I'd liked to have seen difference, but it's still a great game in my opinion.

I'd liked to have seen:
-Villagers talking to their neighbours and friends they know instead of spilling out their whole life story if they walk past a total stranger. And over and over. . .
-More diversity in the skills and how they impact gameplay.
-MUCH better balance and pacing. I can kill 10 draugr in a row but a snowy saber cat takes me 50 hits to kill.
-two different types of melee attacks instead of standard and power attack. I'd liked to have seen a sweep and a slash. The sweep hitting more enemies, thus having better chance to hit, but does less damage. The slash can hit only one enemy but with more damage and more chance to hit.
-More NPC behaviour, I want to see travellers staying at an inn for a day and then trekking across the lands and such.

And more.

 

[Surf Solar]

snip.

Really, that's it? A list of arbitrary points that add nothing really to the real gameplay or RPG mechanics?

What difference does it make if I can walk into thousands of empty houses which all look the same? The same for the "huge world" - I hate this stuff "bigger bigger bigger" when they can't even fill one town properly with life and interesting quests? The look of a mountain seriously changes the way you play your character in an RPG? Adding an unskippable animation to a crafting mechanism is an addition to the mechanics? Adding unskippable "fuck yeah thats so cool!11" finishing animation, while the VATS killcam is already fucking annoying? The ability to walk away in the middle of a conversation, really ? What difference does it make if I watch a badly textured "book" where I can switch pages with (again unskippable animations) or simply read them on a holodisk? Bookshelves, truely this is the most import thing. More flora and fauna - in a fucking desert? Maybe if you love all such things, why not play The Sims instead like you even mentionend instead?

Really. All those points reak of LARPing or that "Immersion" buzzword and add really nothing to what actually matters for Fallout (or an RPG in general). If this is all what people can bring on what "Fallout 4 should have" and Bethesda even wastes production time on, then oh glory hallelujah, I already know what "masterpiece" FO4 is gonna be.

What about actually fixing some things that matter for Fallout?
Fixing the horrible implementation of the SPECIAL system they have? Getting rid of silly minigames and add more than 4 tresholds for hacking/lockpicking (25/50/75/100) ? Adding more skills, elaborating on the old ones and make them actually matter in the game. Taking the faction mechanics Obsidian showed and making them even better.. Taking the skillchecks and C&C examples from NV and elaborate on them? Making less twitchy FPS gameplay or better scrap it entirely?

Yeah I know, we're talking Bethesda here and they likely take the list of fluff (because it's nothing else than that - fluff) that you posted and won't change anything on real gameplay (or dumb it down even further).

Izual: I can understand someone not liking the actual story (and that politics stuff you mentionend - I don't like it either) - but you have to be really blind if you say the game is too short, lacks content or ignore the fact that they brought back some RPG elements that weren't feautured in any recent RPG since MotB maybe.

 

[DemonNick]

wh..... did you even play the godman thing? short and not story heavy? .....

Oh well, I'm not sure this is an interesting debate or anything, but if you want me to explain my opinion, here it is. Beware, post full of spoilers for both FNV and Skyrim

In short, of course:

FNV is all about the main quest. At least in Skyrim I was able to play 50 hours without going forward in the main quest. That's no big deal, but it sounds important to me. The main problem with that is FNV's main quest, basically, did not entertain me. I mean yeah, let's fight for a town that you don't care about! Come on. After hours in New Vegas, I still didn't give a fuck about New Vegas, an ugly town with 5 buildings. Compared to Fallout 1, it was a game about politics. You awake in your grave and SNAP, you got to get revenge and thus conquer New Vegas. Huuu... No, thanks! What I want is wandering in the wastes (which was basically not possible due to the emptiness of the wasteland and the invisible walls Obsidian put everywhere on small mountains).

What version of Fallout: New Vegas did you play? The biggest knock against the game is that it doesn't really have a main quest to speak of. The vast majority of MQ stages, (the Legion is less bad about this than the other branches, admittedly) consist of doing sidequests you can do entirely independently of the MQ. Granted, it can be a bit hard, sometimes you have to find alternate ways into the quests that take more exploring (Doing How Little We Know requires finding Carlitos in the bowels of Vault 21 and doing Bye Bye Love for him) But, y'know, if you actually like exploring... If you think that New Vegas is a game that doesn't let you wander around for a long time, poking stuff and doing stuff and finding stuff, then you're just plain bad at playing it, man. Sure, the invisible walls were annoying, but by and large there's generally a way around.

I can't say you're wrong about it having more of a political dimension though. The MQ after getting the chip mostly revolves around being an Operative for one of the big powers. But since the MQ is so perfunctory, if you do a decent amount of exploration a lot of it consists of telling quest givers "Oh, I already took care of that", so whatever.

 

[Sabirah]

snipperoo

Sahib, I get that you disagree with him but don't get all angry with him. His opinion is as valid as yours.

 

[warsaw]

Oh oh oh, can I contribute to this conversation!?

I have an opinion about a game.

You're an idiot!

 

[Bakura]

Oh oh oh, can I contribute to this conversation!?

I have an opinion about a game.

You're an idiot!

I haven't even posted anything yet! *sobs uncontrolably*

 

[Sabirah]

Oh oh oh, can I contribute to this conversation!?

I have an opinion about a game.

You're an idiot!

This is my new signature.


Thanks Sahiba!

 

[UncannyGarlic]

SPECIAL is flawed, even more so in the FO3/NV games... They always wanted to go with the GURPS system for Fallout which would've been better, is more detailed etc... SPECIAL is more like a last minute revamp- they didn't even bother to fix some flaws in FO2. But yeah I agree, it is still way better than everything we have today, especially this clusterfuck like used in Skyrim..

Actually SPECIAL worked better in New Vegas than any other game because they use the various skills more evenly. Granted, you can still max out every skill if you want to but the game makes better use of the system. Fallout 1&2 have more skills but there are redundant skills and the games use less of them, though the game did actually have specialization.

2) Visuals for crafting of all sorts (and in general, more crafting).

I disagree, I like crafting to be quick. I hate having to sit through pointless fucking animations. It's like making an animation sleeping, it gets old fast. I have no problem with making it an option that can be turned on or off but not mandatory.

1) extremely large and varied area of exploration.

Agreed, visual variety is a good thing and can be cohesively achieved, especially if traveling was changed to allow for using a larger geographic area and removing the long and boring walk through the world (ie Fallout 1 & 2 map style).

3) Ending conversation by simply walking away.

Agreed, faster ways to get out of dialogue are good in any game.

4) Melee wepons have their own finishing moves (not only in VATS).

Not sure what Skyrim does but more attack variety is very good.

5) Readable books and bookshelves to store them.

Sounds like a big waste of resources to me. I don't like pointless fluff and that's exactly what the books in TES are.

6) Lack of unreal morality system.

Most people agree that the Karma system needs to fully be removed and it's use was minimized in Fallout 2 & New Vegas, with the games relying more on Reputation.

7) More flaura and fauna.

It's a wasteland and New Vegas specifically takes place in a dessert. A ton of flora and fauna make no damn sense. This links into the whole visual variety thing though so if it can be done in a logical and consistent way, then sure, why not?

I don't know what FNV you played, but ever since I started the game last week I've put in 40 hours just doing the side quests, I haven't even been to vegas yet. Seems like every town I visit I think "Oh boy, another two hours of side quests" and I'm almost never disappointed. And they're fun too, I've yet to feel like I was doing a chore just to progress.

It's a chore just to get from one town to the next, but the TES games share this glaring flaw.

Seriously? Skyrim may not be the best rpg of all time, but surely its inspired art design and interesting quests are better than a tasteless and generic fps?

Randomly generated trash quests (fed-ex, killing boars, etc) without indication that they are such is garbage design. I'd also argue that while every Modern Warfare game is essentially a new single-player campaign with a few improvements, the core gameplay (combat) is far better executed than any Bethesda game I've played.

The problem with pointless sidecontent

The advantage of linear gameplay vs backtracking

 

[Vik]

Randomly generated trash quests (fed-ex, killing boars, etc) without indication that they are such is garbage design.

Have you actually played Skyrim? Because you're talking out of your ass, my good sir.

I'd also argue that while every Modern Warfare game is essentially a new single-player campaign with a few improvements, the core gameplay (combat) is far better executed than any Bethesda game I've played.

The core gameplay is so simple, generic and uninspired that you'll be tired of it after an hour if you have any taste when it comes to shooters.

 

[Lexx]

The problem with pointless sidecontent

The advantage of linear gameplay vs backtracking

Heh, this stuff is great and his points are valid for many games.

 

[shihonage]

About "faster disengaging from dialogue" thing.

The moment you start doing something serious with dialogue, you run into situations where the player should not be able to just terminate the conversation without tracing through the "goodbye" branch that is currently available to him.

This "goodbye" branch may not be the same as in the root of the conversation.

"Walking from dialogue" only works for simplistic, unambitious dialogue engines, where NPCs are mostly used as infodumps on Prozac.