Game of Thrones

The finale actually has several major book deviations that has book purists up in arms. Myself, I think most of them work very well in the context of the show, but one change in particular still bothers me;

In the books, when Jaime rescues Tyrion, he also tells him that Tysha, the wife Tyrion had when he was 13 and that Tywin had gang-raped in font of him eyes (it was talked about in season 1 episode 9), was not a whore as initially suspected, but did indeed love him. This sends Tyrion in an absolute fury, as Jaime, who was otherwise his beloved big brother, participated in the lie until then. Tyrion gets very nasty with Jaime, telling him Cercei cheated on him multiple times and that he did kill Joffrey (which he obviously didn't) just to hurt him, and the brothers have a falling out. The reveal is also what sends Tyrion in his murderous spree, and he kills Shae in cold blood, she never attacks him in the books. The Tywin conversation however is still mostly intact and very, very well done.

Hell, in general Book!Tyrion is a way, way worse person than Show!Tyrion. In the books he's a murderer, has much less concern for those around him in general, is in a constant state of self-pity, and becomes absolutely loathsome in book 5. He's still a great character to read about, mind you. I get that they wanted to whitewash him a bit in order to have a ''good guy'' in King's Landing after Ned is demoted to head on spike, but IMO they went a bit too far and removed a bit too much grey from him.

The rest of the changes I can live with. Brienne vs Sandor never happens in the books but it's such a great fight, and is so superior to Brienne's dreadful arc in book 4, that I love it anyway. Jojen Reed never dies in the books, but I guess his role was over anyway. At the end of book 3 we also get Lady Stoneheart introduced; she's Catelyn Stark, resurrected by Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion, of the Brotherhood without Banners. There was a lot of disappointment that she didn't end up in that finale. Then again, in the books so far she just sits around and hang Freys, so it's very possible they will only include her in season 5.

At this point anyway, the show is a separate beast from the books, and it will only increase in divergence. On the one hand, it's kinda good because Martin is not an infallible writer by any means and the showrunners will be able to trim the fat around some of the worst storylines in books 4 and 5. On the other hand, they aren't as good writers as GRRM (for obvious reasons) so several of their changes also kinda fell flat already. I still love the show and will still watch it religiously, but it's something to consider.
 
I always thought that martin had a hand in the scripts for the show. At least I always under the impression that he wrotte them as well. Or at least some of it. I am a bit worried for season 5, since the show will soon enough catch up with the unfinished books :ugly:

lots of potential to fuck things up now.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I always thought that martin had a hand in the scripts for the show. At least I always under the impression that he wrotte them as well. Or at least some of it. I am a bit worried for season 5, since the show will soon enough catch up with the unfinished books :ugly:

lots of potential to fuck things up now.
Click to expand...

He writes an episode per season (predictably they tend to be among the best ones, he wrote ''The Lion and the Rose'' (ep 2) this season, and I remember him writing ''BlackWater'' (S2E9) which is still the serie's best IMO). They do consult him too, quite obviously, but the show is under the creative license of its own runners. GRRM hasn't denounced anything they did so far, so that's good enough for me.

And the show catching up is a given. Book 6 comes out late 2015 at best and book 7 is 4-5 years after that if things keep up, assuming Martin even lives that long. I can bear the waiting, but if Martin dies this will be an orphaned series and would be extremely sad. I haven't been that absorbed in a series of novels since I was born. I'm just 23, mind, but still.

It will, however, be interesting to see how book fans will react to the show overtaking the novels. Now we will have to watch for spoilers everywhere and show fans will cry when the books change things around! :revolution:.
 
I have read that Martin had a conversation with HBO in case of his death, and he told them in which direction the books will go, I guess simply some rough ideas about the future of some characters. For the case he really dies before they are finished.

What is surprising though, and I guess this really hits only the people that know the books, is the big changes in Season 4 compared to the book.

What I am really worried about though, is the lack of "memorable" characters. Season 4 was in my opinion one of the best seasons, maybe only the Red Wedding was better, simply because I really was not expecting that! Great stuff. Even if sad. But watching the show now, more and more characters dissapear or seem to move towards a "dead end" in their plot. It will be interesting to see what they will come up with in Season 5. It seems that some characters in the books do nothing more then "sitting" around for some time, which is not so good for a show. Season 3 and 4 had a few new characters with a lot of personality, and now they dissapeared again. It makes me a bit worried. Like I said. But we have to wait and see!
 
Last edited:
The Sopranos > Game of Thrones... GOT gets more ridiculous with each season, nevertheless I'll watch the show to the bitter end, and probably regret it, unlike The Sopranos, which only got better.
 
Crni Vuk said:
I have read that Martin had a conversation with HBO in case of his death, and he told them in which direction the books will go, I guess simply some rough ideas about the future of some characters. For the case he really dies before they are finished.

What is surprising though, and I guess this really hits only the people that know the books, is the big changes in Season 4 compared to the book.

What I am really worried about though, is the lack of "memorable" characters. Season 4 was in my opinion one of the best seasons, maybe only the Red Wedding was better, simply because I really was not expecting that! Great stuff. Even if sad. But watching the show now, more and more characters dissapear or seem to move towards a "dead end" in their plot. It will be interesting to see what they will come up with in Season 5. It seems that some characters in the books do nothing more then "sitting" around for some time, which is not so good for a show. Season 3 and 4 had a few new characters with a lot of personality, and now they dissapeared again. It makes me a bit worried. Like I said. But we have to wait and see!
Click to expand...

Yeah, books 4 and 5 have several established character not do much. Dany in particular was hit very hard with that, but Tyrion, Sansa and Arya to a lesser extent are also guilty. But I'm pretty sure they will work towards trimming down their storylines. They did it with Brienne's (an utter borefest in the books) and succeded.

Season 5 should get us plenty of new characters, however. In the books they aren't the best but the show might very well improve on them (like it improved on Brienne, Oberyn, and Maergery). No spoilers of course, but let's just say that what happens in season 4 has serious consequences for the future.

The story at the Wall I'm particularly looking forward to. Jon's interactions with Stannis and Melissandre were easily among the series's best in the books. Albeit Show!Stannis is almost a villain as opposed to a dark grey character so maybe they will muck it up.
 
Lexx said:
Why does everyone think that Martin is going to die?
Click to expand...

Because he's 65 and probably 100 pounds overweight. Really, it's not that people think Martin is going to die tomorrow or the next day, it's that people believe the combination of Martin's age and his glacial writing pace make it highly plausible that he'll die before the book series is finished. I tend to agree, since he doesn't even really seem interested in writing them anymore.
 
SnapSlav said:
Are you suggesting this season DID end on a note of good guys winning, or reaffirming that they rarely do? Aria did not "win", and nor did Brienne. Qyburn, Cersei, and Gregor are about as far from good guys as you can possibly get, so their respective "victories" are depressing points for any viewer with a shade of morality in them. XD Tyrion certainly didn't win at the end of the story, he got little more than personal satisfaction (muddled with excruciating emotional anguish) but the outcome of these events are an uncertain future for a man with few talents to offer the brutal world beyond him. Even Jon didn't really "win" so much as he didn't lose everything; but he came too close. The one he loves, gone. His friends, all but one gone. And now the Wall is occupied by a tyrannical force that is so self-assured in its own greatness that, like he did when treating beyond the Wall, Jon will be walking on eggshells around these shorts for a long time to come.
Click to expand...

I'm not criticizing the episode, it was strange that so many favorable characters haven't gotten their eyes gouged out, or their heads impailed on a pike (that's good, right?), as this was beginning to turn into kind of a theme. They even got to witness the deaths of some really bad characters like king J.The brutal parts of this series actually, kind of remind me of Alexandre Dumas books in a way, where the life of a likable character just gets worse and worse from abuse and unfairness of the world.

SnapSlav said:
It's a VERY philosophical journey! Take Tyrion's conversation with Jaime just minutes before the trial by combat. That wasn't in the books, but that was a magnificent analysis of human nature that starkly mirrored Tyrion's own situation. He was doomed to a cataclysmic and violent fate for no logical reason at all, and as Jaime pointed out in the middle of it, countless women, children, and innocents are slain every day without any reason as well. It's more than just a simplistic scene about "bad shit happens" but a deeper scene that reflects human nature, and reminds keen viewers that this is not merely entertainment, this is ACTUAL human nature, dark and unreasonable.
Click to expand...

To be fair, in my mind i'm comparing it to works like the Stalker and Mirror from Tarkovsky (when i'm talking about being philosophical), where some parts of the movie are not even movie like, they are more as thoughts and dreams. So yeah, GOT isn't lacking in depth, as far as mainstream goes, it just doesn't cut it in the top tier.

Lexx said:
Why does everyone think that Martin is going to die?
Click to expand...

That's what i thought about too :)!. From all the talks, i thought he was a 80 year old cancer patient . Being 65 he still has potential to live 15-20 years and i have seen chubby dudes reach 90.
 
Last edited:
AskWazzup said:
Being 65 he still has potential to live 15-20 years and i have seen chubby dudes reach 90.
Click to expand...
The problem is also that at his current writing pace (1 book every 5-6 years) and rumours about spreading it into 8 books instead of 7, he wouldn't be done before 90 anyway. And frankly, I really don't see him reaching 90 and writing all the way.

Add to that the annoyance of being on the receiving end of spoilers (I.e. TV show spoiling book readers), which is already beginning to happen...
 
in any case, the future of GoT will be very interesting. I mean we will either be watching a fucking huge train wreck (GoT has already made its way in to pop culture), or it will be one of the best shows ever.
 
Lexx said:
Why does everyone think that Martin is going to die?
Click to expand...

He's pushing 60 and overweight. Doesn't mean he will drop dead tomorrow morning, but it's not a winning combination. He still has at least 7 years of work before he finishes the series, that is if he doesn't decide to make it 8 books as the rumor goes. He also spends more and more time doing side projects, attending fan conventions, ect. He's got every right to do it of course, but still.

Hell, even if he doesn't die, it takes only one stroke or something along those lines to damage him beyond his ability to write more. I'm not checking his pacemaker every day, but it's still a valid concern.
 
So, to sum up a few of my thoughts on the above page of conversations but without make a long series of quotes, and thus bulking this post up unnecessarily.....

What happens when the shows "catch up" to the books: It was revealed very candidly that the showrunners, Benioff and Weiss, in order to acquire Martin's blessing and thus his legal agreement in their acquisition of the show rights to his property, had an in-depth conversation at a lunch (which then became a dinner as time drew on). The pinnacle of their conversation was when Martin tested them as fans of the books and asked them, among other questions in the same vein, "Who was Jon Snow's mother?" According to all 3, Dan and David proposed their answer to Martin, and explained it, at which point a deadpanned Martin (excellent poker face, as they described it) cracked a smile, indicating that they got the answer right. When asked by various hosts, interviewers, and internet personalities after this story got recanted on multiple occasions if they could repeat their answers for Martin publicly, they flat out refused. The secrets of Ice and Fire (GOT) remains between these three, and no one else. But that means that, on top of big series-long mysteries like Jon Snow's parentage, all of the secrets of the books, included those which have yet to be written, are already known by the showrunners, and in the totally-likely event that Martin doesn't complete the book series before the show concludes in 3 years, then the show will still depict its own variation of Martin's story, which book readers will get to enjoy when he's finally finished.

What happens if Martin dies: See above. As for why this is such a prevalent question, I think it's because several authors died in the last 5 years when their epic series were 1 book away from conclusion, and it devastated fans. I can't recall any names, but I do remember one such instance where another author picked up the mantle, and was trusted by the late author's wife to be capable of finishing her late husband's work with the appropriately matching tone, style, and method, using his notes and unfinished drafts, and the book was thus completed. Martin, by contrast, has stated very adamantly that he wants all of his drafts and notes completely destroyed if he should ever die before the series is completed, so we won't be getting that... XD He also threatens to kill Tyrion (or any likeable characters) if fans don't stop pestering him about his writing pace, so his vows are not to be taken lightly!

Additional thoughts on the finale:
Yes, while the fight between Brienne and Sandor never took place in the books, with the way they were tweaking the events of his journey with Arya, they needed something suitable to finally push him into his dying state, and a masterful battle between those two, who so happened to be nearing each other as the show's episodes progressed, was a perfect fit. I LOVED that battle, and I felt like some fans' assessments were disingenuous to what actually happened. People kept saying "they were evenly matched", when really Brienne would have been completely outmatched if it weren't for her Valyrian Steel sword Oathkeeper and the fact that Sandor was slowed by his infected wounds. As Ayra pointed out (a reference to the cause of his being left to die in the books), he was struggling more and more to walk with each day because of the "flea bite" he suffered and simply refused to have cauterized. Never forget that what killed Drogo was a tiny wound that festered... well, kinda. Still, the clash between Brienne and Sandor was AMAZING, and I loved it. It was the perfect climax for his character arc, and the perfect tragic end to a character who deserved redemption, but never got the chance to seize it.

I believe I mentioned the lack of the Tysha reveal already, but essentially the same thoughts. I could see that it would have felt like some "needless filler" for show viewers to suddenly add some exposition to the scene of Tyrion being rescued by Jaime, and it certainly would have disrupted the flow of the scene, but I just feel like they needed to legitimize Tyrion's following rampage, and it seemed out of character for him to decide to postpone his escape just to walk into his father's chambers for no (voiced) reason. I do disagree, however, that the confrontation between Tyrion and Tywin was largely unchanged. Tywin was supposed to be raving drunk, epitomizing his hypocrisy in that he constantly berated Tyrion for his fondness for wine and whores, yet moments before his death he himself was drunk with a whore in his bed. It would also explain why he so recklessly pushed Tyrion while sitting at the business end of a crossbow, because an impaired Tywin would have at least slipped his tongue, but normally Tywin is just too levelheaded to make such a fatal mistake. I still liked the scene, but I just felt like a few components were either missing, or could have been slightly improved upon.

Thoughts on what's to come:
As I think I've mentioned here, what's been keeping me going throughout all of the series is the culmination of the tale of Maggie the Frog, a prophecy which has haunted Cersei for most of her life, and slowly but surely takes shape. Just like all 3 "Usurpers" died shortly after Stannis threw the leeches into the flame and called out their names, the details of the prophecy regarding Cersei's life and her fate are slowly coming true. What excites me about this is that she will die by the hands of a "valonqar" (High Valyrian for "younger [sibling]", which she and everyone else assumes to mean Tyrion, though I believe will be Jaime) after "all that [she holds] dear" is taken from her by a younger and more beautiful queen, and all of her children are dead. I just really, really, REALLY want to see the prophecy fulfilled, because as far as I'm concerned, it is CERSEI who takes the coveted crown of "most despicable character in GOT/ASOIAF", not Joffrey, not Ramsay, not anyone else but Cersei. It doesn't mean, of course, that once she swallows her last breath and is gone that all is suddenly right with the world, naturally, but it's just a long-overdue vindication that I've been yearning for, for years.

I'm also looking forward to watching Jon take command of the Night's Watch, hopefully showcasing some wit and tactical/political cleverness on his part. Because if his character assumes that role in the same manner as he's been depicted in the show, then he'll just be stumbling through his new duties and more than likely "accidentally" make very wise decisions, when in the book Jon was shrewd, calculating, and deliberate. Smuggling people to thwart certain individuals, arranging marriages to thwart others, it was a clever Jon that was consistently depicted in the books which we've never really seen yet in the show. I suppose that's another reason they had for his venture to silence the mutineers, because he voiced a tactical reason for its necessity. But that line of character progression will need to be strengthened in Season 5 if Jon is to be anything more than a naive manboy without a clue what he's doing.

I am NOT looking forward to Lady Stoneheart, however. I fucking HATED Catelyn when she was alive, and she wasn't any more likeable when she was revived as a Frey-hating psychopath. Knowing the showrunners, they'll probably find a way to make her more sympathetic, even as far as outright villains in GOT go, but I really just want nothing to do with her. If she's cut out of the show, while that's a pretty big omission, that's one I wouldn't personally miss.
 
Last edited:
Read all the books and have to admit, 4 and 5 were a bit slow and I really didn't care for some of the characters at all.

In regards to the Tyrion/Jaime scene, the scene was missing something without the Kettlebecks/Lancel Lannister and, of course, Tyrions warning mantra to Jaime which haunts him throughout the rest of the series. As snapslav explained it, it largely gives explanation to Tyrion, and how Jaimes revelation was really the straw that broke the camels back.

I look forward to seeing how they will handle Jon Snows future and the crazy things/revelations with the Greyjoys.
 
Last edited:
I feel like the sloth of the last 2 books was because of the overall "lack of purpose" in them. In Game of Thrones, you're following the growing murder mystery of Jon Aryn, and it very much feels like Ned's story, so the closer he comes to ascertaining the truth, the greater the crescendo, leading to a very climatic finale when we find out that Ned was just a pawn in the game, not a player. Then in both Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords we're following the War of Five Kings, so reaching its conclusion likewise granted those books a sense of urgency to them. But with the war essentially over- at least the open war has largely died down, with only smaller skirmishes remaining -and the focus of the story revolving around the political game, it feels draggy. When something "happens", it moves the pages along and hastens your reading. But when it's just "and then this, and then this, and then this", you tire of it. There's still plenty of conflict, but it's mostly restricted to underhanded and covert maneuvers, and with no central plot that the reader is interested in reaching the conclusion of, like the mystery surrounding Jon Aryn's death, the books just seem to slow down. This might be remedied in Winds of Winter, which going by the name may at last introduce the seven kingdoms properly to The Others (White Walkers), forcing them to face what shitstorm their squabbling has left them in, and that would, potentially, be a massive conflict that readers will eagerly wish to see the conclusion of. At least, it's possible, but we'll have to see.
 
Agreed. Although all the stories served a purpose, they were much too slow and, (atleast for me). felt muted. This is mostly apparent with the events involving Daenarys, the Frey hater, Arya and Samwell.

However, there is hope as many major organisations were created and because of their core nature, will no doubt become a great terror/political power to come.

BTW: How does one hide their post with the option for show? Yes, I am truly the ninja lurker as I still have yet to master the simple basics of posting yet have been around way too long.
 
Spoiler tags, [ spoiler] and [ /spoiler] (no spaces) surrounding the text you wish to hide. I find you can learn a lot about what code you need to use by simply "quoting" a post that contains the format you wish to replicate, and reading what they used to accomplish this.
 
Lots of crazy shit ahead, spoilers WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Warriors Seven/Faith military
2. Crow Eye and his Dragon taming Dragon horn out for Dany.
3. Tyrion and Varys attempting to swing the second sons Danys way.
4. Arya becoming a faceless asassin
5. Stoneheart
6. Things at the wall
7. More info about old Valyria and the fact that tons of artifacts still remain for those who dare brave its hellish landscape.
8. Cerseis trial and her champion, the frankensteined Mountain that rides.
9. More
 
Last edited:
DarkCorp said:
Lots of crazy shit ahead, spoilers WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Warriors Seven/Faith military
2. Crow Eye and his Dragon taming Dragon horn out for Dany.
3. Tyrion and Varys attempting to swing the second sons Danys way.
4. Arya becoming a faceless asassin
5. Stoneheart
6. Things at the wall
7. More info about old Valyria and the fact that tons of artifacts still remain for those who dare brave its hellish landscape.
8. Cerseis trial and her champion, the frankensteined Mountain that rides.
9. More
Click to expand...

D:

But yeah, one thing I love about GoT is that it lets us along the creation of legends. Instead of showing us a crippled "gimp" right away, and informed "once upon a time, he was a noble Lord!" we are taken alongside the whole ride, and we experience the "distant past" as it slowly becomes distant past. For example, we all sortof consider old papa Stark as a distant legend, but at the time, we couldn't imagine the series without him.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top