General Gaming Megathread: What are you playing?

Oh I hated RE6. I felt like it was treating me as if I was mentally challenged with its "gameplay" and the amount of ACTION scenes and plot armor dripping off of Leon and whatsherface made me hate everything about it. The final straw was when the game told me to hold down a button to proceed the game for no good reason as it could have been a cutscene and then when the helicopter started failing the plot armor meter started dinging like crazy.

- - - -

I'm really cutting down things left and right and honestly it feels liberating. The backlog used to be so huge a few months ago but now I'm tired of dealing with things that don't interest me solely for the reason of "oh you have to give them a try" or "you spent money on it" or "but it's a waste to remove it". Either a game hooks my interest or it doesn't. My patience is extremely low for my perception of mediocrity. And I'm less than a dozen games away from the Steam backlog being done. It's a strange mindset I'm in. Wondering what actually matters in my life. Granted, it's video games. It shouldn't matter too much. But it helps put things into perspective. I haven't had this kind of a mindset before in my life. Maybe way back when I first got depression but that was over a decade ago so I can't remember. I'm excited to reach the end of the line.

More cuts:

Cities Skylines
I didn't like the controls or the tiny HUD's text that was mid-gray on white background, I had to squint to read anything. Also I already have SimCity4 which I enjoy enough as it is. I don't see the reason to keep this one around.

Alice Madness Returns
It required me to create an EA account. Not origin. An EA account. I'm not creating another account.

Don't Starve
This game has such damn potential to it but every time I go back into it I get pissed off at the design decisions regarding "difficulty". I don't like these kind of indie roguelike games who stroke their chubs at the thought of not handholding the player to the point of creating an experience that is arbitrarily difficult. Especially considering the RNG elements. I don't need a game that keeps luring me back into it, thinking that maybe this time will be different, only for it to start slapping me in the face with its unwashed pecker.

Life Is Strange
I... I just really... Really... REALLY do not care about a bunch of highschool drama. I'm also tired of the telltale design at this point. You're creating an interactive cinematic experience. Not a game. So stop trying to shoehorn "gameplay" into it. I don't want to walk around and have to manually interact with things. It's clear you aren't interested in giving us actual gameplay so drop the pretense and give us a movie that occasionally has choices in it. I'd much rather just sit back and enjoy a story where I get to dictate certain outcomes than... This. I have Tales From Borderlands and Walking Dead Frontier left to play which is in a telltale format. Dunno if I'll be able to play them either. Borderlands and Walking Dead are things that interest me but... I really do not like this kind of "gameplay" anymore.

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Oh and I finished Darkness II. It was fun. But I feel like I jumped midway into a story, and it ended on a kind of a cliffhanger which makes me feel like I have to go look up the comics now.

I also soft-finished Hard Reset (its original ending, not the now-ending) It's all right. Better than DOOM and I think that's pretty sad. But it was fun, up to a point, then it got real repetitive. I only played it for like 4.5 hours so, yeah, not a super long game and even then I think it needed an hour trimmed off of it. But the first 3 hours were fun at least.
 
It always seemed to me that the artist copied the face of Brian Bosworth for the cover of Hard Reset.

Hard_Reset.jpg
 
Quit Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice.
The game is gorgeous and the animation is reaching uncanny valley. Story and setting were really interesting.
But even though the game is only like 7 hours long or so it drags on for way too long.
It's a walking simulator with some puzzles and minimal combat. And as interesting as the story and setting is it's wasted when I have to spend the majority of the gameplay just walking around. At a certain point the puzzles just feels like they're in the way and combat is a relief as it is a break from the monotony.

Playing Hitman Absolution though. It has some parts that I honestly think are shittily designed when it comes to sneaking as it seems like you need to game the system to succeed and those parts infuriated me (fucking train station was horrible), but those parts are rare and largely I find the game really fun. I seem to remember there being backlash against the game for being this horrible handholding mess because of the instinct mechanic (which highlights interact-able objects and enemies) but I don't see what the issue is. The game has tons of ways of solving your objectives and just because the pack of cocaine is highlighted doesn't mean you have any idea how to make use of it. Better pay attention to the world around you to figure it out.

I do think you should just run and gun the first time around though. Not right away, try to sneak to pay attention to as many guard patrols and behaviors as possible but when you get caught just run and gun. You really need to learn the way the level is laid out because there is no map and you can always replay the level later to finish the challenges by going sneeki breeki. Oh and this is the most story centric Hitman game I've yet to play. There isn't really any jobs you go on, it's all about the storyline. But each mission has a target and an expectation of you to act as a Hitman. Oh and I'm genuinely surprised by the quality of the voice acting, characterization, animation and writing.

I'd say Hitman Absolution is an example of nearly perfect blend of high quality gameplay and high quality graphics. Usually graphically impressive games are lackluster in other ways (usually because the budget sunk in requires an extreme profit margin so it gets streamlined for as wide of an audience as possible) but the gameplay is on point in this one and I don't see how anything that made Hitman Hitman was sacrificed due to the increase in quality of graphics.

After so many cuts it's refreshing to see a game that hits the nail on the head.
 
Mr Fish said:
Quit Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice.
The game is gorgeous and the animation is reaching uncanny valley. Story and setting were really interesting.
But even though the game is only like 7 hours long or so it drags on for way too long.
It's a walking simulator with some puzzles and minimal combat. And as interesting as the story and setting is it's wasted when I have to spend the majority of the gameplay just walking around. At a certain point the puzzles just feels like they're in the way and combat is a relief as it is a break from the monotony.
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Walking simulator?
That game is probably the most in-depth exploration in psychosis in media. What you refer to as "walking" is a meticulous attention to detail that the devs had while designing the game. The visual and auditory hallucinations they recreated and which appear while simulating that walk of yours are ground-breaking and have a major purpose in game.
 
Mr Fish said:
It's a walking simulator with some puzzles and minimal combat. And as interesting as the story and setting is it's wasted when I have to spend the majority of the gameplay just walking around. At a certain point the puzzles just feels like they're in the way and combat is a relief as it is a break from the monotony.
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Atomkilla said:
That game is probably the most in-depth exploration in psychosis in media. What you refer to as "walking" is a meticulous attention to detail that the devs had while designing the game. The visual and auditory hallucinations they recreated and which appear while simulating that walk of yours are ground-breaking and have a major purpose in game.
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Very different takes on a game.
It's like when I try to explain to people why Shadow of the Colossus is great and they say, "Yeah but isn't there like only 16 sections of actual gameplay?"

I appreciate the way you look at things Atom.
 
Atomkilla said:
Walking simulator?
That game is probably the most in-depth exploration in psychosis in media. What you refer to as "walking" is a meticulous attention to detail that the devs had while designing the game. The visual and auditory hallucinations they recreated and which appear while simulating that walk of yours are ground-breaking and have a major purpose in game.
Click to expand...
I guess I just forgot to mention this being an amazing aspect of the game. I know this. I liked this. Except for the walking part. I don't give a shit what you try to explore; If the gameplay is a chore then the gameplay is a chore. So yes, it is just a walking simulator. It's the best walking simulator I've ever played. But. It is still just a walking simulator. Sluggishly moving along a corridor design with minimalistic gameplay elements such as "unlock door" and "walk through portal". And I found that bboring.

If this was a movie I could just sit back and enjoy the story, I wouldn't be bothered by it being slow paced as you'd need it for the slow buildup of the psychosis. I just don't want to 'play' it. Maybe you enjoy walking simulators and if someone does then this will be amazing for you. But I don't enjoy walking simulators.
 
I think you're overestimating the "walking simulator" aspect of the game. There aren't that many empty corridors or map areas where there's nothing to do but walk. Some of the puzzles are boring, that I can agree with, and the running speed could have been a bit faster, but I still can't agree that the game is a walking simulator. There's plenty of puzzles and hidden secrets throughout the world that largely alleviate that emptiness of just walking/running around, there's a lot of audiovisual segments which serve a large purpose, there's plenty of exposition given at you through voice overs, there's environmental worldbuilding you can explore, and a lot of the slower segment serve as a larger build up to a boss fight or something in that regard.
And that all is without mentioning the combat, of which there is plenty, and the cutscenes, which there are even more.

All in all, I cannot agree with you, really. Aye, it's a slower-paced game most of the time, and there are a few tedious moments in it, but there's just no way I could consider it a walking simulator.
 
Atomkilla said:
Walking simulator?
That game is probably the most in-depth exploration in psychosis in media. What you refer to as "walking" is a meticulous attention to detail that the devs had while designing the game. The visual and auditory hallucinations they recreated and which appear while simulating that walk of yours are ground-breaking and have a major purpose in game.
Click to expand...

Agreed, The game was actually hard for me to get into and i was about to play something els but keept going. The last 5-10 minutes of the game was pure perfection with setting/sound/combat etc. The music just fitting so perfectly as she makes that last push and the sheer determination she shows.

But i would probably never play it a second time. It was a once only thing but still great.
 
I actually want to replay it, but yeah, not that much of a replay value in it unless (like me) you really like the story and the theme. But yeah, even with that, it's not exactly a top priority.
 
Then we have different standards for what makes something a walking simulator. The game is far more concerned with being cinematic and realistic to the point of the detriment of flow in gameplay, gameplay that is already minimalistic and quite simplistic. And what is left is an awful lot of walking around. No objects to interact with really. No loot system. No climbing system. No platforming. No kung fu fighting. Nothing. Just the same repetitive combat over and over again whenever the planets align and walking sluggishly from one puzzle to the next. That's enough for me to consider it a walking simulator. It's like when a "horror" game goes way too heavy on the combat to the point that it loses the horror and it becomes an action game. There's stuff there that could be horror if explored upon, but ultimately there's too much action and it drowns it out.

I don't exactly throw the term "walking simulator" around frivolously. Even during the puzzles, what do you do? You walk around and scan the area for a symbol. Then you walk around and go through portals that show different illusions so you can walk over to the change in the world and walk some more. Then there's the fire, then you run. I guess that's different than walking but I'd still consider it part of just using your legs to go from A to B. Apart from the combat the only gameplay aspects is press A to open door. The rest is walking. Yes I can hear the voices. I can see the fucky things in the background. I am fully comprehending the story as it goes along. But none of that is gameplay. The voices, apart from in combat and sometimes as puzzle hints, don't actually do anything to affect the gameplay unless a cutscene thing happens because of their narrative (which also is not gameplay). Gameplay is what you actually DO in the game. And what do you actually DO in Hellblade? Well you walk. You walk around the big tree so you can walk into it and press A once, then you walk to a challenge stone and hold RT, then you walk in circles in the dark with a torch pressing A to light a torch here and there for better visuals until you reach the end and get a cutscene. Walk walk walk walk, press a, walk walk walk walk, press a, walk walk walk walk, hold RT, walk walk walk walk, press a, walk walk walk walk.

So yeah, that's why I think it is a walking simulator. But I'm curious, Atom, if you don't consider this a walking simulator then what exactly do you consider a walking simulator?

[EDIT]

I also want to point out that I'm not using walking simulator as a pejorative, it's just how I classify it and I personally don't like walking simulators but it doesn't mean that the game is bad because it is a walking simulator. It just means it wasn't made for me.
 
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Mr Fish said:
Just the same repetitive combat over and over again whenever the planets align and walking sluggishly from one puzzle to the next. That's enough for me to consider it a walking simulator.
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Mr Fish said:
Even during the puzzles, what do you do? You walk around and scan the area for a symbol. Then you walk around and go through portals that show different illusions so you can walk over to the change in the world and walk some more. .......Apart from the combat the only gameplay aspects is press A to open door. The rest is walking. Yes I can hear the voices. I can see the fucky things in the background. I am fully comprehending the story as it goes along. But none of that is gameplay. ..... Gameplay is what you actually DO in the game. And what do you actually DO in Hellblade? Well you walk.
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In here lies my problem with your understanding of the game.
You casually disregard the combat (which, while repetitive, is not a minor aspect of the game) and the puzzles (also a major part of the game) while criticizing the fact that the only mode of transportation, so to speak, is walking and running. Technically, yes, the game is limiting in that aspect and I do agree that more platforming and generally greater interactivity with the terrain would be more than welcome, but you cannot simply ignore what is essentially 2/3 of the game simply because you dislike walking in it. In risk of sounding like a straw man, if I were to just glance over and ignore major aspects of [insert plenty of video games] plenty of them would become walking simulators, which is simply unfair.
Fighting in Hellblade IS gameplay. Puzzles IS part of the gameplay. And yes, walking around not the most rewarding thing there is, but I really think you're blowing the issue out of proportions.

Mr Fish said:
No objects to interact with really. No loot system. No climbing system. No platforming. No kung fu fighting. Nothing.
Click to expand...

There are objects to interact with. Gates, blockades, memory stones, torches, sconces. It isn't GTA but it's a list.
Loot in this game? Honestly, that makes no sense because there is no need for loot because the whole game is narrative-driven -
and the fact that you're fighting the apparitions which are products of a psychosis - what is there to loot? I'd argue that looting chests or something like that would be detrimental for the game. Senua has no interest in material possessions, she seeks to save the soul of her loved one. Making the game a lootfest would have only hurt it. Same goes for kung fu fighting, regardless of your joke there. The combat isn't the most rewarding on the market, but is thematically more than fitting and has a nice variety of opponents for a 6-hour-long puzzler, as well as well-designed bosses.



Here's the thing, Hellblade was marketed as narrative-driven puzzler with combat. And it is exactly that. It's a game which serves to tell a story in a way that no other medium before it could. The experience that Hellblade offers couldn't have been done in film or book simply because you are not a protagonist there. That's the unique aspect of video games, the fact that player has agency and is the protagonist, or is at least placed in their shoes. Hellblade doesn't offer that much agency to the player, beyond the basic necessities of a fairly simple gameplay, but the experience it offers is unique, and devs went for that. With a meager budget they had, they delivered a unique game which has no comparison in almost all of media when it comes to the way it explores the subject matter.
I simply cannot call a game like that by what is, essentially, a derogatory term which is very unfair to the game's central qualities and devs' goals.
 
I'm not disregarding the other gameplay elements of the game, I'm saying that they're like a hint of flavor rather than the flavor itself. Games can have certain elements in them which drown out the others or take such precedence that the others feel token for even being there. Sure, fighting is gameplay, but how much fighting is there? Not a whole lot, and when it does appear then apart from boss fights it is the same repeat of enemies. One dude which respawns several times, next dude respawns a few times, shield dude. Fighting isn't a strong flavor in this game for me. It's a hint of flavor. I can tell that it's there but it's not satisfying.

As to the puzzles, I've already stated that during the puzzles you walk an awful lot. I'm not going to explain this again. Yes, there are puzzles in the game, and what do they include? A lot of walking. I think you need to replay the game and get a refresher because I'm not ignoring anything. I'm fully paying attention to what the game is and I'm not throwing meaningless statements out of nowhere.

Walking is a means to an end. It is something you have to do to maneuver the world. The question is what it is leading towards. What distractions and obstacles are along the way. And obviously how much of it there is and why the amount of walking is a necessity for its gameplay format. There is a lot of walking in a Bethesda game, but it leads somewhere. I can decide to walk in any direction and find something to do. In Hellblade you can't. You will progress forward and along the way forward there is bugger all to do but press A to open a door or hold RT to listen to an audiolog, neither of which is compelling gameplay.

It isn't unfair to call a spade a spade. The fact that you think combat is a third of the game and that puzzles are a second third of the game is absurd to me. Just because they're there does not mean that they are equally represented.

-

The loot comment? It... It was an example of a game mechanic, not a suggestion for this game. That's why I included kung fu fighting because both would be absurd for the game. It was just examples of game mechanics that are present in other games and highlighting that if you had to list actual gameplay elements in Hellblade you'll be hard pressed to come up with anything. There isn't even a healing system. There is a damage system. But no healing. No debuffs. No buffs. No evolution of combat (as far as I played at least which was more than enough for it to get repetitive). And I'm not saying these are things it should have. I'm saying these are examples of gameplay elements other games has and that in comparison it makes Hellblade come real short of variety.

That list of things to do? Gates, torches, sconces, bridges? It's all just press A (on the xbox controller). It is gameplay. Absolutely. But it's just hitting A. Once. And then you continue walking.

-

There are horror films that are intended to be horror films but they turn into b-films you love to laugh at. What you want to create and what you end up with might be two completely different things. Also, sometimes they market things wrong or flat out lie, not sure about Hellblade since I didn't follow up on its marketing so I won't state what its goal was and take you at your word for it but if that is what they marketed it as then I think it is unrepresentative of the actual game itself.

Also, no, I do not consider myself as the protagonist. I consider the character as a vessel that I can dictate how it operates and maneuvers in the world but ultimately it is its own character who's journey I spectate. The character is the protagonist. I just get to pull the strings and sometimes that is taken out of my hands so it can have its own autonomy (cutscenes are an example of that). So we might fundamentally disagree on this.

And as to everything else you said after that part: Right, but it's boring to me. I don't care what the meaning behind it was. I don't care what they had to work with. I don't care how they tried to utilize simplicity for a narrative journey. At the end of it all, what I'm left with is a game where I just walk around a lot. That's a walking simulator to me. And I find that genre boring.

It's like that scene in Malcom In The Middle where Hal paints a masterpiece in the garage and at the end of it it is an impressive painting, the family is stunned by its beauty. But the layers of paint is so comically thick at this point that it peels off of the wall sized canvas and falls over them, resulting in a big mess of paint. Was the painting beautiful? Yes. But the result is still a garage full of paint. Not a perfect analogy as I'm not saying Hellblade is a mess but the point of intention and result still stands.

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I respect FNV for what it is and I used to love playing it so I don't like people shit talking the game but if someone says that the wasteland is empty and that they find it boring then I can't fault them for that. Yes, it is quite empty. A house is just a house and a cave is just a cave. Not everything leads to a dungeon. And I want that out of Fallout and they do not. So while I don't agree with it I can fully understand why they find it boring. I don't get an emotional attachment to the game and say that their views are wrong. But it feels to me like you're acting like I slighted your mother or something. Like I'm saying it's a full on piece of shit. I'm not. To me a walking simulator is not a derogatory term and I don't care if you think it is.

The game is an attempt at being something that sticks out of the masses and tries something unique and it accomplishes that. I'm fully acknowledging that it is great at what it is. I'm not saying anything bad about it in that way at all. It shouldn't have a massive amount of combat. It'd be weird if the puzzles took you out of her perspective to focus on a chessboard or something for a minigame. The way it is designed works for the narrative cinematic structure. It just means that it does not cater to me. And I'm fine with that.

Like I said in my previous post, it'd help if you'd explain what you think is a walking simulator so we can see where exactly we disagree.



Watch from 5:20 to 19:00

All of it walking. You go down a ladder once and hold down RT to listen to audio recordings every once in a while. Apart from that, solely walking. And after that? The first trial which is the same one I picked as him? You press A a few times to light sconces. Barely gameplay. It is gameplay. But it's not an actual break from the monotony of walking IMO. And then you might hold down RT a few more times to listen to audio recordings. Apart from that? You're looking at 36 minutes of walking and the occasional cutscene.

Again, I want to reemphasize this point very seriously. I do not think that walking simulator is a derogatory term and I don't care if you do. Walking simulator is just another genre to me and if a game has this much emphasis on walking to the point that it drowns out everything else then that is a walking simulator to me.

[edit]

Maybe I can clarify my views on Hellblade a bit with this:
Atomkilla said:
Hellblade doesn't offer that much agency to the player, beyond the basic necessities of a fairly simple gameplay, but the experience it offers is unique, and devs went for that. With a meager budget they had, they delivered a unique game which has no comparison in almost all of media when it comes to the way it explores the subject matter.
Click to expand...
I fully acknowledge these things and I agree with some of them.
AND I think it is a walking simulator.

Like, is it unique? Yes.
Does it explore a subject matter like no one else has? Yes.
Does the gameplay serve to the narrative structure of the game? Yes.
Does it take great care to attention to detail when it comes to the psychosis? Yes.
Is it well written? Yes.
Is it well voice acted? Yes.
Is it well animated? Yes.
Is it beautiful? Yes.
Does the combat serve its purpose whenever it comes up? Yes.
Does it make you empathize with people dealing with such psychosis in a way you didn't before? I do.

Yes to a lot of these things.

AND I find it to be a walking simulator.

I agree with a lot of these things. I fully acknowledge these things. I am not ignoring any of it or overlooking any of it. But I'm not going to disregard the astounding amount of walking that there is in the game and how much of a precedence it takes in the gameplay format over the other things or even when it is working with the other things (such as puzzles).

And at the end of it, you're able to enjoy the game because/despite of it. I'm not. That's all I'm saying. I'm not criticizing the game in any way beyond that (apart from the repetitious nature of the combat, it really could have had a bit more variety in enemies and mechanics like blocking or whatever).

I'm not trying to convince you that it is a walking simulator as if it is factual (as the label is a bit in the air, just like RPG's IMO). That you have to adopt my definition for it. You think it is unfair to treat it as such but I hope I have clearly defined what I consider that genre to be and that I do not think it is a derogatory term. Anytime I have stated it as being a walking simulator it has always been from my definition of it. If your definition differs then obviously I'm not labeling the same way you do. So when you think I'm saying something derogatory; I'm not.

All I've been saying is that I think the game's focus on walking is too much FOR ME to enjoy the other aspects of the game.

A walking simulator to me is a game where other gameplay aspects take the backseat or aren't even present as it focuses far more on its narrative aspect, be it visual or audio, preferably in a visually stunning world where you're let off the leash to explore how beautifully crafted it is in a level of detail that other mediums don't allow. And you do that through a whole lot of walking as other gameplay elements are not the focus and might take attention away from what the focal point of the game is about.

And that fits Hellblade. It is focused on the narrative aspect, both visually and through audio. The world is explored mainly by walking and exploring a stunningly crafted scenery that showcases a level of detail that I rarely see. While it does have combat is is sparse and while it does have puzzles a lot of them include the walking aspect of the game. And in order to progress through the narrative and explore the world I do it through walking. A lot of walking.

And that's why I call it a walking simulator. That's my definition for it and that's why it applies to Hellblade. It's not an insult. It's not a way to belittle the game or the developers' efforts. It is not a way to throw everything meaningful about the game out the window as if it didn't matter or as if I never realized it was there in the first place.
 
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Dude, that's a huge wall of text. I will read it and reply later on, but really, you shouldn't have bothered. We are just chatting and shit.

Edit: Well, the answer will actually be pretty short here.

I guess I should apologize for a wrong presumption of mine about your take on the things - you are literally the first person I've ever encountered who used the term "walking simulator" in a way that isn't offensive or belittling of the game itself. And trust me, I've encountered a bunch of people who use it like that, you're the first who doesn't. You're right when you say the exact definition of the term is kinda up in the air, but to be real, it's an insult more often than not. But, since you don't use it as a derogatory term, the whole shtick changes.

So, in light of that take of yours on the term itself, I can see what you mean when you describe it as a walking simulator. I'm not going to adopt your definition of the term or apply it here, but fair enough, in your view of the things, that term works. I still would disagree about the distribution of gameplay elements and the way they are presented - I've played and finished the game fairly recently, so it's still pretty fresh in my mind. While you are right that pressing A and RT are the main way of dealing with most of the things in the world, the simple fact is that most of the puzzle games have simple input, and it's no different here. But I digress.
What I wanna say is that I don't really see that lack of gameplay depth as a major issue. Maybe it's because of expectations of mine, but Hellblade is not a type of game where I'm looking for deep mechanics and intricate systems under the hood. I'd look for it in an RPG, in a strategy game, in a simulation and so on. Not in a narrative-driven and oriented puzzler with combat. Which this game exactly is, as we've both mentioned, and in that regard I believe it delivered.

Regardless of it all, I think that the central issue here is simply of subjective taste. You found the game to be boring. I didn't. Both of those are fair things. I don't see a need for further discussion.
 
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The walls of text is something burnt into my brain from the days on Bethesda forums discussing Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas where every discussion would lead to derailment and lose sight of the original point so I get the burning desire to cover every point and by the time I feel finished I hate how bloated it is. I often times just delete the walls of text and don't post anything at all because of it. It gets out of hand but it's so ingrained into my brain that I have to cover as much as possible so there's no misunderstandings or things to take out of context.

Anyway, I have nothing further to add really. One thing I should mention is that I went into the game blind. All I remember was some vague episode of Zero Punction of it. Other than that I just saw it was on sale on steam and nabbed it because I wanted to broaden my perspective and figured why not. But I had no expectations going into it so it took me by surprise. Obviously in hindsight I should have researched it a bit more but often times when I do that I end up not buying anything out of my comfort zone at all.

Gotta take a leap of faith sometimes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

---

Been playing Minecraft. It devours time like the glutton phantom in Spirited Away. I want to try out multiplayer but I have no idea how it works.
 
Mr Fish said:
the days on Bethesda forums discussing Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas where every discussion would lead to derailment and lose sight of the original point so I get the burning desire to cover every point and by the time I feel finished I hate how bloated it is.
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Those were the days...
 
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