George Zimmerman, race and the NAACP

[Syphon]

So you don't think BonusWaffles rebuttle has ANY value?

Yes well sanders posts are not visions from heaven. Black people in general tend to have a lower socioeconomic status party because many of them identify as part of a certain culture, a culture that segregates itself into lower socioeconomic areas and careers. If we would stop encouraging this us vs them black vs white mentality this wouldnt be so much of a problem.

Middle class people tend to stay middle class, lower class people tend to stay lower class. While its possible in the united states to move between classes its just not what people tend to want to do, its not because the big bad white man is out to get them.

Lets forget to not hurt anyones feelings by these broad statements, and ask yourself if theirs any truth to them? Do you think that there is a problem with lower-class black culture and its so-far poor education results? I think there is man.

Btw Sander, this is how I feel when I comment on your sports blog. Sterotypes and all!

 

[Ilosar]

Yes well sanders posts are not visions from heaven. Black people in general tend to have a lower socioeconomic status party because many of them identify as part of a certain culture, a culture that segregates itself into lower socioeconomic areas and careers. If we would stop encouraging this us vs them black vs white mentality this wouldnt be so much of a problem.

Middle class people tend to stay middle class, lower class people tend to stay lower class. While its possible in the united states to move between classes its just not what people tend to want to do, its not because the big bad white man is out to get them.

Sandor's posts aren't gospel and he tends to be slightly dogmatic but he still makes a hell of a lot more sense than you.

The italic part is... I wouldn't call it racist, but it's most definitely prejudiced and simplistic. There's far more to black culture (as much as you can differenciate it from ''normal'' American culture) than gangsta-shit rap and coked-up athletes.

Also the US is a pretty horrible place for class mobility in general. You can't exactly pin the fact that the system discourages you from leaving your income zone (hello ridiculously expensive quality higher education!) on the blacks being lazy or whatever. The US has a social mobility problem; that's not a Us vs Them mentality, it's fact, and burying your head in the sand doesn't change that. I mean, cripes, it's like those Republican pundits screaming ''class warfare!!'' as soon as you bring up the very real problem of gross economic inegality in the US. Are we going to dismiss the also very present problem of racism with ''Us vs Them entality, don't care!!''?

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

I was going to show the statistics of black on white vs white on black crimes (hint: it's more one-sided than you could ever imagine).

I was going to point out the complete lack of outrage at the atrocities blacks have committed against whites in recent years (brutal murder, torture, even shooting infants) that all failed to gain anything more than local news coverage.


However, those things wouldn't fit in this disgusting mess of misplaced anger and white guilt; so I'll just leave you with a nice straight to the point article and video from a black Wall Street Journal contributor.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html

 

[Syphon]

What part of FL you from ?

And that last paragraph was the most honest, taking responsibilty quote by a public figure I've ever heard.

 

[Sander]

Syphon, please edit your posts instead of double posting.

I was going to show the statistics of black on white vs white on black crimes (hint: it's more one-sided than you could ever imagine).

I know the statistics. They are fully explained by what I noted above, they fit the explanations of what you would call the liberals. They are not surprising in that sense.

Specifically, the general thesis (slightly oversimplified for the sake of brevity) is that socio-economic conditions and structural oppression cause crime, and that the justice system has significant biases that hurt blacks both in real terms and in ways that show up in the statistics.

In other words, the fact that blacks are overrepresented in crime statistics is explained largely (but not exclusively) by two factors:

- Blacks are worse off socio-economically, on average, and are hence more likely to be involved in crime.
- Blacks are also discriminated against whether consciously or subconsciously, and are hence more likely to be arrested and convicted for crimes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html

No one in this thread is claiming that George Zimmerman was wrongfully aquitted, so I'm not sure why you are posting that comment.

But, sure, there are issues within the black community, too. To drag those into the discussion on Trayvon Martin is a little contrived, and to pretend that those issues are more relevant and not caused by previous oppression flies in the face of the evidence we have, though.

 

[BonusWaffle]

Sandor's posts aren't gospel and he tends to be slightly dogmatic but he still makes a hell of a lot more sense than you.

The italic part is... I wouldn't call it racist, but it's most definitely prejudiced and simplistic. There's far more to black culture (as much as you can differenciate it from ''normal'' American culture) than gangsta-shit rap and coked-up athletes.

Also the US is a pretty horrible place for class mobility in general. You can't exactly pin the fact that the system discourages you from leaving your income zone (hello ridiculously expensive quality higher education!) on the blacks being lazy or whatever. The US has a social mobility problem; that's not a Us vs Them mentality, it's fact, and burying your head in the sand doesn't change that. I mean, cripes, it's like those Republican pundits screaming ''class warfare!!'' as soon as you bring up the very real problem of gross economic inegality in the US. Are we going to dismiss the also very present problem of racism with ''Us vs Them entality, don't care!!''?

I think you need to read my post again because if all you got out of that is "blacks are lazy lol white power" then you obviously were not paying attention. Seems more like you were looking for what you wanted to hear me say, not what I what i actually said.


Edited to say that i grew up in a very poor family and had my college pretty much totally paid for by the government. Its not that hard to change class if you really want to, its just not something most people care about. Am i going to put in the work to try and become a 6 figure a year earning surgeon with a giant house? No, im fine with what i have. The story might be different if my parents both had very high paying positions. People generally dont want to leave their class. Its human nature, or at the very least its american culture.

 

[pyroD]

I myself am "black" (although no one is actually the color black) and I was born to a middle class family and live in a middle class neighborhood. I can tell you that most "black" people do indeed have a mindset that they are mistreated, poor, etc.

They have no socioeconomic problems, and as far as I know none of us ever had issues with discrimination. Yet they insist on partaking in criminal behavior anyway. So alot of the reasons behind this behavior you named are not as sound as they might appear on paper.

And as for the Trayvon Martin case, it annoys me that it was turned into a black vs. white racial issue. Especially when Zimmerman looks far more hispanic than anything else. And I live in Arizona, I know a hispanic when I see one.

 

[Syphon]

Aye, aye BonusWaffle. I agree man. If you really want out of a shitty situation, you stuck your nose in a textbook and bust your ass! If you rock out on your GPA, some school (upgraded from the ghetto dump that I went to) will send you acceptance letter so you can help their overall performance grades. Hell, the government gives you bigger checks for 3.0+ GPA averages.. The key to poverty and the NATIONS coffers, is getting everyone educated, building an immense advanced economy with bigger checks, and bigger taxes. Everyone benefits.

PyroD, Thanks for your perspective. It is an honest one and honesty will only help this issue our citizens are suffering from.

 

[Walpknut]

I find USA people use of the word "hispanic" and "Mexican" as etnicities hilarious, there is a whole range of etnias in south america, not just brown people.
And race issue or not the fact is that an unarmed minor was killed with a gun and the guy who did it isn't even serving jail time. Couple with that peopledefending Zimmerman resort to calling Trayvon a thug despite not even being involved in any illegalactivity when Zimmerman started stalking himjustoutside of his dad's neighborhood. Peoplecall shooting a teenager self defense but ignore te part about an armed guy stalking said kid for no reason, evenafter being told by the police to leave the kid alone.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

And race issue or not the fact is that an unarmed minor was killed with a gun and the guy who did it isn't even serving jail time. Couple with that peopledefending Zimmerman resort to calling Trayvon a thug despite not even being involved in any illegalactivity when Zimmerman started stalking himjustoutside of his dad's neighborhood. Peoplecall shooting a teenager self defense but ignore te part about an armed guy stalking said kid for no reason, evenafter being told by the police to leave the kid alone.

Dispatch operators cannot tell you to do anything. They give advice and send help where it needs to go. Zimmerman was completely in his legal rights to follow Martin, even if the operator recommended he did not.

No one knows what happened during that lapse of time. There had been a string of break ins by African American teens matching Martins description. Maybe Zimmerman wanted to follow him and relay as much information back to the police as he could. Just as likely as the image of a man "stalking a child through the streets", is the image of a young, athletic (much more so than Zimmerman), and angry teen, turning around to face his pursuer and throwing a punch his way. If Zimmerman had found himself in such a situation, being pummeled on the pavement, he surely could have feared for his life. At that point Stand Your Ground laws do not even matter, self defense and justifiable homicide laws are more than enough.

The killing of a human being is justifiable and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony upon George Zimmerman, or to commit a felony in any dwelling house in which George Zimmerman was at the time of the attempted killing.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/153354467/George-Zimmerman-Trial-Final-Jury-Instructions


It was a good call by the jury. There were far to many unknowns in this case.

 

[Walpknut]

So, punching someone following you around with a gun is bad and you deserve to be killed, but shooting the person you are stalking is okay? Start a fightwwith a minor, and when you start losing just shoot him, later claim you fearedfor your life. Seems like a solid loop of abuse.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

So, punching someone following you around with a gun is bad and you deserve to be killed, but shooting the person you are stalking is okay? Start a fightwwith a minor, and when you start losing just shoot him, later claim you fearedfor your life. Seems like a solid loop of abuse.

How do you know he started the fight and was not just following and observing? What if it was Martin who turned around to confront the "creepy ass cracker"? In a fair fight Martin would have destroyed Zimmerman. You paint the popular image of what most who are outraged with this case believe. The opposing one I painted is just as plausible. What it comes down to is that no one knows for sure what happened in that lost time. You cannot (should not) condemn a man based off emotions and hunches.

Mark Steyn of the Orange County Register sums it up nicely.

If you know your Magna Carta, you'll be aware that "no official shall place a man on trial ... without producing credible witnesses to the truth of it." But the rights enjoyed by free men in the England of King John in 1215 are harder to come by in the State of Florida eight centuries later.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/case-516709-zimmerman-child.html


Mind you I am a white male and concealed carrier. To say I am not with my own bias is an understatement. I do agree with pretty much everything Sander has posted though. He sounds exactly like my Sociology Social Problems professor.

 

[Walpknut]

The guy with the gun is always right, even when killing unarmed minors...
How does the picture of the unarmed kid confronting his armed stalker who then shots him when he starts losing shine any positive light on Zimmerman? What ifs nothing, whatwe know is that anunarmed kidd oing nothing illegal was shot and killed and the killer wasn't even arrested until 6 weeks later.

 

[Bal-Sagoth]

Martin had every right to confront Zimmerman. That does not give him the right to attack him to the ground and sit on his chest pummeling him. Evidence presented during the trial supported such a possibility. The age of Martin has little to do with his ability to inflict bodily harm. A 17 year old can ship to Parris Island and is by all intensive purposes an adult in everything but legal formality. Have you actually seen the body shots of Martin? The "kid" was ripped. Compare that to pudgy overweight Zimmerman.

The unknowns are what acquitted Zimmerman. The Juror who came fourth in the interview parroted the same thing more or less. She said they believed that either man could have walked away at different points. It is unfortunate that Martin was unaware Zimmerman was armed and chose to confront him instead of running home. That still does not give him the right to retaliate simply because someone is following you.

Zimmerman was not arrested because the police investigation reached the same conclusion that the jury did. It only became an issue when Jessie Jackson and friend ignited the firestorm and turned it into a racial issue. That in particular I will refrain from commenting on because you all have summed it up well enough already.

 

[Syphon]

...I still think Zimmerman should of been reprimanded for disobeying the dispatch. Yeah, they have no legal authority but damn man, obstruction? It just bothers me that the person-with no authority made the right call, a right call that could of avoided this unneccesary killing.

 

[Ilosar]

...I still think Zimmerman should of been reprimanded for disobeying the dispatch. Yeah, they have no legal authority but damn man, obstruction? It just bothers me that the person-with no authority made the right call, a right call that could of avoided this unneccesary killing.

I honestly think the issue comes back to this more than to white vs black shenanigans. I personally think gated communities and ''neightboorhood watch'' are utter nonsense anyway, but besides that, Zimmerman just made a very bad call. Why the hell did he confront the kid if he thought he was dangerous? How did he believe that would turn out? Either the other guy was harmless and there's no need to bother him, or he's dangerous and confronting him alone has a lot of chances to end in violence. If he had a doubt, call for support, either police or other watchmen or whatever. Or stay in the car and don't exit.

The whole thing is just a tragedy, and both sides of the political debate in the US have used the event for their own purposes. It's just rotten.

 

[Syphon]

Neighborhood watch people are just glorified "look-outs". They are usually seniors looking out their window who phone the police when a suspicious person/vehicle is creeping around the neighborhood. No harm in that.

Zimmerman was the clear catalyst for this mess. He approached, he provoked. I think he is liable for the man's death, and involuntary manslaughter should of been handed. Grant you, he did suffer injuries to the back of the head (very sensitive region where the brain stem resides) so a slightly lighter sentence should of been handed. The prosecutor started off charismatic and convincing, but it was botched by going for murder.

Florida is a ass-backwards, see Caylee Anthony, Bush/Gore, Priest Terry, Limp Bizkit, so its almost a given for them idiots to drop the ball, once again.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Edited to say that i grew up in a very poor family and had my college pretty much totally paid for by the government. Its not that hard to change class if you really want to, its just not something most people care about. Am i going to put in the work to try and become a 6 figure a year earning surgeon with a giant house? No, im fine with what i have. The story might be different if my parents both had very high paying positions. People generally dont want to leave their class. Its human nature, or at the very least its american culture.

and we told you not just in this tread, that what YOU did is not how it works for EVERYONE ELSE. There are people that simply dont have either the same options or have to deal with very harsh situations.

The single mother with 2-3 kids and several jobs should now get to a collegue to MAYBE get a better job? It's also not really a garuante you know, just because you have a nice grade. Tthere are enough people (white AND black alike) that have good education, but still flip burgers, because they simply cant find a job in their area. We do know that the chance is there, but work alone isnt always the factor here, I can only repeat what Sander said in another topic, that there are enough out there which work a lot just to make a living somehow. You can not always improve the situation by your self. And there is only so much people can do before they give up hope, this counts for you just like for everyone else.

 

[Sander]

I myself am "black" (although no one is actually the color black) and I was born to a middle class family and live in a middle class neighborhood.

Emphasis mine, for a reason. Your claim that black people have no socioeconomic problems and aren't hit by racism is flatly contradicted by a lot of different facts. The simple explanation is, of course, that the people you know aren't representative of the entire population.

That doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't problems of mentality within the "black community" (which isn't really a thing, of course, but it's easy shorthand). But it's important to remember how and why that mentality arose. And it's even more important that it doesn't actually change anything about the solutions to those problems.

Same with BonusWaffle, really. If you take the outside view, given the lack of class mobility, it really should be clear that you were one of the lucky ones. Yes, you worked hard and you deserved it -- but plenty of other people who work hard do not make it. That's just what happens.

Your saying that everyone can make it is similar to a billionaire saying that everyone can be successful if they just take risks and believe in themselves. It sounds good -- but it's just not true.

 

[Atomic Postman]

I have my own opinions about this subject, and I think the case was unjust,but I don't want to start an argument with anyone so I will say this:

Why does one person represent a community? why does the victim represent the entire black population, and the same for Zimmerman, this should be treated as an Isolated incident with no messages involved, what Zimmerman did was wrong, so he must be punished, thats how it should work, clean and simple, none of this " the black community is outraged" bullshit, why should they be? there are indian people stabbing english people over here, but we don't see that as an attack from the indian community, nor does the indian community come out in outrage if an englishman stabs an indian, it has nothing to do with anyone but the attacker, the victim and the victims family, and of course the law.