George Zimmerman, race and the NAACP

[BonusWaffle]

and we told you not just in this tread, that what YOU did is not how it works for EVERYONE ELSE. There are people that simply dont have either the same options or have to deal with very harsh situations.

Yeah right. Theres a group of old white men smoking cigars and denying black people the same college funding and scholarships I had access to.

 

[SuAside]

I think you're making a lot of assumptions and inferences there that really aren't warranted. Why would Trayvon Martin being pictured with cannabis be relevant? Why are you trying to attack his character?

Because it was open game on Zimmerman.

It has no bearing on the case.

Oh? Really? Isn't it important to know what kind of person Trayvon was to gauge how likely it would be that he would attack someone for following him around?
I'd think it's less likely for a honor student to attack someone over that and smack that guy's head to the ground than it would be for a gangbanger. They're trying to find out how much truth there is in what was said and if there was reasonable doubt. It's pretty relevant to me that Trayvon has in the past been found to hold a bag of stolen jewelry and burglary equipment, which nearly got him kicked out of school. That's the kind of stuff that surfaces AFTER the trial.

If anything, it goes to show that Zimmerman was not wrong in being suspicious towards Trayvon.

On the other hand, Zimmerman's character does have a bearing on the case. The two are not equal in import, here.

Sure, Zimmerman's character is more important, but Trayvon's character and likelyhood of him attacking someone unprovoked sure is relevant to me. Since if it was Zimmerman that started the fight, it is no longer self-defense. Which is exactly what the trial was about.

Second, you talk about "the media" as one big entity trying to push an agenda. But this is nonsense. There's no homogenized "media", and when you talk about that construct in that way you're also excluding the single biggest US network (Fox News, 40% market share IIRC). That's not part of the media? That doesn't mean that there weren't a lot of egregious abuses in some media coverage, there were, but you're overgeneralizing and trying to create a homogenous picture of being lied to. Moreover, it ignores the lies and nonsensical portrayals we saw across the internet and in other media, as well. Martin has been described as a "football player" (he sometimes played pickup football in the neighborhood), pictures of him have been cherry-picked to make him look menacing (as if that somehow makes this better), pictures not his were attributed to him, he was rumored to have been a criminal based no evidence etc.

I speak of the majority of the media when I say "the media". And you know that Sander. Obviously there's Faux News and rightwing media too, but here, the vast majority of the coverage was working hard to make Zimmerman a pasty white guy and Trayvon a black angel with skittles and purple drank.

Third, you accept Zimmerman's account unquestionably as fact. We don't know if he was really attacked. We don't know if and how he tried to defuse the situation. We don't know if he was overpowered, if he was being beat into the "fucking ground". We don't know he really had no other option than to draw his weapon. We don't know about the runup or exchange directly preceding the confrontation. There is enough reasonable doubt to not convict the man, but that does not mean that his account is unquestionable truth as you present it.

Zimmerman didn't even testify, so it's hardly "his account". The account I gave is the account that the witnesses have brought forth and that the jurors have accepted.

Yes, we do know he was beat into the ground. Yes, we do know his head was smacked on the ground. And so on. A witness testified to that and the physical evidence confirms it.

As for no option? I never said he didn't have any other option. But he was in his right to draw and shoot.
You always have the choice to be beaten into the hospital. Perhaps be killed. Or perhaps Trayvon would've calmed down. Who knows. He however was met with lawful deadly force.

Fourth, your dismissal of Zimmerman's actions with the words "it's a free world" is callous, at best. When you are carrying a weapon and are prepared to use it, you have a responsibility to be very careful and not casually put yourself in situations where you may take another person's life. You have an extra responsibility to be careful with your actions as a member of a neighborhood watch.

No. Carrying does not change the fact Zimmerman had the right to be where he was, Sander. It -is- a free world. You might find his actions careless, and someone who got burgled in the neighborhood might find his actions entirely justified. What matters is that his actions were entirely lawful for what we can tell.

Zimmerman had no good reason for following Martin.

Oh? I guess a wave of burglaries by black youngsters across the entire neighborhood is not a reason to be suspicious then? Nor is jumping a fence?

He had no good reason for doing so with his gun with him.

He had every right to do what he did. It's the law, Sander.

He had no good reason not to just stay in his car and follow Zimmerman that way, or stay put for that matter.

He's a coordinator of the neighborhood watch and knows damn fucking well the cops would have showed up late or not at all, since no actual crime had been committed yet.

Zimmerman was not, in any way, careful.

He also was not, in any way, harmful.

He was irresponsible and it led to the death of another human being. That is indefensible.

Just because you think someone is following you, does not give you the right to physically attack them, Sander.

That does not make what he did illegal, but it does not mean that he's cleared of responsibility, either.

And he'll carry it with him for the rest of his fucking life. Even though he did nothing wrong.

 

[TheWesDude]

actually the prosecution did everything they could to try to get a conviction.

they refused to turn over all information to the defense, which was only discovered when an IT person for the prosecution revealed that many documents and photos from the police investigation were not turned over to the defense as it would have been severely damaging to the prosecutions case.

that is prosecutorial mis-conduct, possibly grounds for dis-barment, and definately grounds for a mis-trial.

when the defense learned that significant information and photos had not been turned over, they went to the judge to get an order for the prosecution to turn over missing documents and time to review them. the judge refused both requests.

grounds for a mis-trial.


what were some of those documents and photos? the photos from the police investigation showing zimmerman bloody and beaten up immediately after the incident. the only photos presented were after zimmerman was cleaned up.

also documents showing that due to a local police initiative of not arresting/prosecuting people under 18 for crimes and rather citing them with tickets or misdemeanors such as martin getting cited for loitering, and then those same police officers submitting a report stating that within 15 minutes of martin getting that citation, they found over $10,000 worth of stolen goods from local house robberies. and also several police reports of martin getting citations within 30 minutes of the police finding drug paraphernalia.

that might put a different sort of spin on this case.

 

[Crni Vuk]

and we told you not just in this tread, that what YOU did is not how it works for EVERYONE ELSE. There are people that simply dont have either the same options or have to deal with very harsh situations.

Yeah right. Theres a group of old white men smoking cigars and denying black people the same college funding and scholarships I had access to.

eh? Is that what I said? Getting better education or better jobs to improve your situation is a very difficult task be it for a white or black person.

The USA is a pretty huge nation, like a continent even. Almost. Do you want to tell me, all of those:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTQFtNLvcl8
[/youtube]
people living in that area have to do is "beg" for support from the government and suddenly their whole life will improve?

What the hell ...

I mean what do you want to tell me? That you had success means it has to work for everyone else? I guess that the options you had are simply not "there" for everyone in the US.

 

[Tagaziel]

And he'll carry it with him for the rest of his fucking life. Even though he did nothing wrong.

Except for gunning down a teen in a situation he deliberately led to? A lot of people forget that someone was killed.

 

[Syphon]

This video is this reverends' opinion, not mine, but since he's not a participant, I figured he could add his two cents. I don't find the labelling and stat's accurate of even be relevant to a healthy conversation on how the two groups can find common ground, but I think the first segment and how the race conversation has been bottled up and hasn't lead us to a significant change, is interesting. I agree with that. Not much more though. Thanks for reading and participating in this hard dialogue that hopefully spurs some kind of sense of need to act and make things better among us all.

Rev.Manning in "What every white person should know"

 

[TheGM]

Black people kill each other all the damn time and nobody bates a freaking eyelash.

Some Mexican guy does it and everybody throws a conniption.

 

[Walpknut]

The thing in this situation is that an unarmed minor got killed, the guy who did it wasn't arrested or tried for 6 weeks and then he got off scott free despite the fact that he did kill an unarmed minor.

Some people really love to play their racist card for basically everything. No matter what their race is.

 

[BonusWaffle]

I mean what do you want to tell me? That you had success means it has to work for everyone else?

Its exactly what i mean to tell you. The US government is VERY helpful when you want to get a college degree and move up in the world, i honestly cant figure out how anyone can complain. I fed myself, paid for tuition and books, room and board, and the government paid for just about all of it. I didnt even have to pay any taxes for a couple of those years. Sure it was a lot of hard work and i didnt have new gaming systems and a lot of fancy food but its absolutely nothing to complain about.

No government official ever came over to check if i was black. What possible circumstance would there be for someone not getting the same treatment i was given besides lack of ability?

As for trouble getting a job, if your skills are marketable then people will hire you. A lot of the people i see complaining about the lack of jobs are people with degrees in "womens studies" or philosophy, or just things that the market is already over saturated with like laywers. Make yourself useful to society or dont expect to be paid.

 

[Walpknut]

Then that problem with the ever rising student Debt because of increased interet rates (higher than that of banks) is completely made up.

Also you have a rather naive outlook on life, a lot of times certain job creators want to exploit newly graduated people and often go for the less quealified to be able to make them work a lot more for less, what good is there in a job that squeezes all of your time and doesn't even pay enough, and in the case of the USA not enough to pay their ever increasing debt.

 

[Syphon]

Well when they ask you, how much do you want to be paid. Say $25 an hour. They'll get the picture that you mean business and will squeeze as much out as you can. They'll fire back with $17. You say $20.

 

[Walpknut]

Or they just go for the next shmuck that is ready to be exploited.

The thing is that right now they expect a graphic designer to also be their web programmer for less than minimum wage while also working full time, I get payed better and get treated more humanly by working on a Call Center, how fucked Up is that?

Well, at least I am not shackled by an eternal debt because education is more accesible here.

 

[Ilosar]

Well when they ask you, how much do you want to be paid. Say $25 an hour. They'll get the picture that you mean business and will squeeze as much out as you can. They'll fire back with $17. You say $20.

You've been in very generous job interviews. My experience is, if you overvalue yourself, they'll simply find someone else, unless you,re in a field where they need people fast.

Anyway, the point is, blacks obtain less high education degrees, and when they do they are less employed and receive less wages (which is hardly unique to the US or even racial issues, of course, but still). I do not believe that it's because they're lazier than any other ethnicity. It's not a question of the Evil White Man shitting on the downtrodden, pure-hearted masses; prejudice, simplifications and hasty assumptions exist and they do impact people, even if they don't experience outright you're-inferior-because-you're-black racism. There's no denying that.

As for the case, I still think they Zimmerman should have been chastized somehow, or at least acknowledge that he was partly responsible. I know, the law is the law, but it seems a bit too easy to just let him off the hook after he kills a minor in fishy circumstances. Maybe they'll use the occasion to clarify/reform the law a bit, but that may be wishful thinking on my part. I just don't understand how a civilian can go to another one, put both of them in a dangerous/stressful situation, shoot and kill the other (not that he had no reason to at that point), yet is left off the hook.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

And he'll carry it with him for the rest of his fucking life. Even though he did nothing wrong.

Except for gunning down a teen in a situation he deliberately led to? A lot of people forget that someone was killed.

Take a well thought out and fact-based argument, pick out a single sentence and disregard the rest, and respond with a divisive "but..but.. the children!" appeal to emotion.


I'm starting to see a pattern here.

Are you sure you don't work for MSNBC, Mikey?

 

[TheWesDude]

you know what, if someone assaults me and starts pounding my head into a concrete sidewalk, i would just hope that i have a gun to defend myself.

and i hope you would too.

following someone is not grounds for them to assault you and start beating your head into a concrete sidewalk.

that IS a deadly circumstance.

 

[DarkCorp]

As far as I know from the case, Zimmerman got out of his car/truck and followed Travon: not illegal.

Possibilities:

1. Zimmerman tried to detain Martin at some point while following him/make physical contact with him. Trayvon defends himself by fighting off Zimmerman. At some point during the ensuing fight, Trayvon sees Zimmermans gun, fearing Zimmerman would get up, pickup gun, and shoot him, attempts to knock Zimmerman unconcious.

2. Trayvon lost Zimmerman, doubled back, then cheap shotted Zimmerman. Trayvon did not see Zimmermans gun and tried to kill Zimmerman anyways by the headbashing thing. All because he was an ass/thug/whatever. Zimmermans self-defense works.

3. Scenario one but Treyvon has subdued Zimmerman, takes his gun to assure that it would not be used on him, runs away, throws away gun. Trayvon might not have done that as being an armed black teen hovering over a downed man usually results in said teen being in a really bad situation.

4. Zimmerman follows Trayvon in his car, takes careful notes and relays relevant info to police. Best situation.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, Trayvon cannot defend himself. All the witnesses I have read about always said it was either too dark to see clearly or all they heard was screaming.

 

[SuAside]

And he'll carry it with him for the rest of his fucking life. Even though he did nothing wrong.

Except for gunning down a teen in a situation he deliberately led to? A lot of people forget that someone was killed.

Euhm, maybe it's hard to believe for you, but most people that have a concealed carry firearm don't go out thinking "I'm going to shoot me a nigger tonight!".
Statistically, CCW permit holders are the least likely to commit ANY crime, they have a record for shooting five times more accurately than police officers (& as a result cause far less collateral damage when they do shoot) and they resolve mass shootings three times as quickly as cops do (resulting in a significantly lower amount of casualties).

Clearly, these CCW permit holders are the scum of the earth, and we should assume they're out there simply to draw blood.

Either way, Zimmerman "deliberately led to Trayvon's death" just as a random person driving a car down a 50 mph road deliberately led to the death of a child that ran across the road without warning or without looking.
Zimmerman, to our knowledge acted entirely lawfully. As did the driver. Does that mean both Zimmerman & the driver have to go to jail? No, they shouldn't have to go to jail, regardless of how tragic the deaths are.
It is possible that Zimmerman or the fictional driver engineered the situation as criminal masterminds in an effort to kill their target & get away with it. But quite frankly, it's quite clear there is no reason to suspect that, nor is there any way to prove it.

The thing in this situation is that an unarmed minor got killed, the guy who did it wasn't arrested or tried for 6 weeks and then he got off scott free despite the fact that he did kill an unarmed minor.

The police came to the scene, saw that all evidence matched Zimmerman's explanation, they took Zimmerman to the police station where he was interrogated further. Once they had the relevant information and saw that Zimmerman most likely was not lying and that he was not a flight risk, they released him.

And lo and behold, the jurors said the police was entirely correct to do so?

Yes, it's a tragedy that a youngster died in a totally useless fight. But as pointed out multiple times in this thread, all concrete evidence AND eye witnesses point towards Zimmerman having used lawful self-defense.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, Trayvon cannot defend himself. All the witnesses I have read about always said it was either too dark to see clearly or all they heard was screaming.

No, two key witnesses saw the fight in progress, and one of them perfectly described Trayvon's clothes as he was sitting on top of a man wearing Zimmerman's clothes while delivering an "MMA"-style beating. That does not tell us who started the fight, but lends credence to the fact that Zimmerman was fearing for his life during that fight.

 

[Sander]

SuAside, you keep conflating lawful/"he had a right to" and what I would describe as moral responsibility. I never argued that what he did was unlawful, and that's not the point. I argued that what he did was careless and irresponsible.

What he did was irresponsible and careless, by the way, regardless of Martin's character and regardless of whether or not he was actually attacked.

BonusWaffle: You are not taking the outside view of your own situation. You did something and took full advantage of the system, therefore you feel that everyone should be able to do that. But if you look at the facts, at class mobility in the States and at the number of people who manage to take advantage, the clear, objective evidence says that this is simply not the case. And if you take the outside view, you should see that you're extrapolating from a single data point vs. a much, much wider data set that says the opposite. And the latter is always more accurate as a descriptor of society in general.

 

[Tagaziel]

Euhm, maybe it's hard to believe for you, but most people that have a concealed carry firearm don't go out thinking "I'm going to shoot me a nigger tonight!".
Statistically, CCW permit holders are the least likely to commit ANY crime, they have a record for shooting five times more accurately than police officers (& as a result cause far less collateral damage when they do shoot) and they resolve mass shootings three times as quickly as cops do (resulting in a significantly lower amount of casualties).

Clearly, these CCW permit holders are the scum of the earth, and we should assume they're out there simply to draw blood.

Ah, so that's what your argument is about. You don't give a damn about people being killed, all that matters is the precious fact that he was a gun owner and this is a high profile case that includes guns.

I highly doubt you'd be this outraged at the media treatment of Zimmerman if he stabbed Martin to death in self-defence.

 

[Crni Vuk]

And he'll carry it with him for the rest of his fucking life. Even though he did nothing wrong.

Except for gunning down a teen in a situation he deliberately led to? A lot of people forget that someone was killed.

maybe its just my "european way" of thinking, but I am the only who is believing that this "stand your ground" law is kinda silly? As this case here shows, that if you ask me, was somewhat abused.

I mean what do you want to tell me? That you had success means it has to work for everyone else?

Its exactly what i mean to tell you. The US government is VERY helpful when you want to get a college degree and move up in the world, i honestly cant figure out how anyone can complain. I fed myself, paid for tuition and books, room and board, and the government paid for just about all of it. I didnt even have to pay any taxes for a couple of those years. Sure it was a lot of hard work and i didnt have new gaming systems and a lot of fancy food but its absolutely nothing to complain about.

No government official ever came over to check if i was black. What possible circumstance would there be for someone not getting the same treatment i was given besides lack of ability?

As for trouble getting a job, if your skills are marketable then people will hire you. A lot of the people i see complaining about the lack of jobs are people with degrees in "womens studies" or philosophy, or just things that the market is already over saturated with like laywers. Make yourself useful to society or dont expect to be paid.

Look, I have no clue how old you are, but I have the feeling that you lack experience in life.

I will tell you this again.

Some people simply dont have the same CHANCES like you.

I will do a hyperbole now, and say, that to change the situation in Somalia or North Korea, all that has to happen, is that people simply "stand up" and change it. I mean hey! It certainly worked for other nations! France has thrown out their monarchy, the GDR has torn down the wall, the US managed to declare their independence etc. But, and this is the point, things are never as "simple" as it might seem. I dont know enough about YOU and YOUR history, why or how you managed to have success while others fail, very hard, the number of people which succeed with changing their status is MUCH lower compared to the number of people that simply failed. There are so many things in life that can go either wrong, or where you simply dont get the support, even if you have the RIGHT(!) for it. I have definitely seen such cases.

What advice do you have to the single mum living in some of the worst parts of detroid or be it in any other "poor" place in the US, which has 3 jobs, trying to feed her kidz? Getting support from the government? Sorry. But thats REALLY naive. And I dont even mean that as insult. Even the government has not endless resources. Definitely not that much that we can expect to get help for every person out there that needs help. Which is part of the problem. Many programms are also inefficient.

In theory, on paper, there are a hell lot of programms, subsidies, scholarships and who knows what else to help people achieve something in their life. Again. Thats the theory. Real life is a bit different. There are far more people out there in need of help compared o the programms that could help them. And this doesnt even factor in that not everyone will find a job, regardless of his education. There are enough engineers out there that cant make a living because it happens that the job market is full. Happens! Unemployment! And the social system in the US, depending in which state you are, can be a nightmare and youre forced to take what ever you can get.

I do agree with you, that all of the issues, should not be a reason to stop you from trying it over and over again. But you can not simply decide that those people that didnt succeeed are either lazy, or didnt worked enough or what ever just because it worked for YOU. Its not always their fault. At some point people simply colapse. Been there done that.