Gripes by the Number: New Vegas nonsense

[Prone Squanderer]

Not a gameplay issue but a gripe nonetheless, but the ending where the Bright ghouls come back from space to help out makes little sense to me. How did they come back? Why did they come back? Am I missing something or what?

 

[NMLevesque]

It's basically Pahrump/Sandy Valley/the 160.

It's on the other side of a bus-gate. It's literally there. Unlike HH there's no real time-skip, is there? Open a bus, walk through a bus to the other side, there's the divide.

Edit: apparently it's three days away and more towards the East towards 127 and in Cali.

That's what it feels like, but the map with all the locations on it says different.
I've tried to find the map where it is marked on, but no luck anymore. No idea where it went and gamepedia wiki seems super slow right now.

Yup, it's just a weird coincidence that there is an identical bus where you start your journey and end it. Trying to reconcile Fallout geography with real world geography with respect to the Divide is a rabbit hole. It makes no sense. You head west, but start on the east side of things, and then pop over to the west side once you get through that base. If not for that, it might almost make sense, but the visuals look more like a gorge canyon that anything in death valley. I worked out the highways a while ago. It's on gamepedia somewhere now, but maybe just a talk page.

 

[Lexx]

Honestly, they should have done something like the Indiana Jones map scenes at the beginning of every DLC, because ultimately they all suffer from the same "this place is just right around the corner"-feeling.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Har dee har har. Can we just acknowledge that as far as turn based complexity goes, Fo and Fo2 are near the bottom?

I dunno... I found it engaging.
Why do you think so; (I mean your specific reasons).
__

Combat-wise IMO Fallout 2 improves on Fallout, and Fallout:Tactics (turn-based mode only) improves on Fallout 2.
But even Fallout allowed for the PC to attack & defend themselves, their companions, to set ambushes; to take cover, to heal themselves or their companions; their pets. It had area effect weapons; it calculated hit cones... Bullets sprayed in a pattern, and could hit adjacent (friendly, neutral, or hostile) targets. The AI supported NPC—allies for when someone hit a bystander... they would join the fight against their attacker.

All combatants could be crippled in combat, either from attacks to them, or by them—if they had an accident.
These injuries affected their performance and accuracy. Severely crippled combatants could lose the ability to use weapons; many would retreat, in attempt to escape combat.

All weapons had a luck affected, skill based chance of hitting, and of friendly-fire when they missed. Especially skilled (or lucky) strikes, could have additional—even crippling injuries; that could include instant death.

Now... Here is one: The PC could unload the enemy's gun—during combat; if they managed access to it. They could drug temporarily incapacitated enemies. They could plant live explosives on their enemies; as in knock them down, stuff a grenade in their pack, and run on to their next melee; and have the recovering enemy blow up while they were hammering on some other guy that kicked their dog.

**The oddest thing I've noticed, is probably a coincidental fluke... but the combat animations seem to be in time with the music. Anyone else notice that? (or know if I am mistaken about it?)

Fallout 2 added more: The player could push party members—if the NPC had the APs for it; (it used their personal APs to move). This meant that the player could nudge them away from an attacker, or outside of a weapon's area effect. NPCs could equip armor, and had selectable aggression profiles. HtH combat moves were changed to reflect greater HtH skill (if attained by the PC). These new attacks had tangible effects on the injured.

 

[Kohno]

Har dee har har. Can we just acknowledge that as far as turn based complexity goes, Fo and Fo2 are near the bottom?

They didn't need a super complex system to become what they are.

I've many times seen people claim something to the effect of "if Fallout had combat like Jagged Alliace 2, it would've been so much better", but I don't think that's true. Combat instances would've just become way more heavyhanded and the requirements for combat characters would've skyrocketed, and these effects would've inevitably drown the rest of the gameplay feautres. Just look at the newly made Divinity OS games for an example of that effect.

A simpler (relatively speaking) system for combat is not necessarily a mark of "bad" design or unfun gameplay. There was room to improve for certain, but Fallout was not a combat game to begin with, not before Tactics and onwards from there; it was a game where combat was just a feature. In that light it was actually better to not go overboard with combat design.

 

[Gizmojunk]

One of the simplest—while still being under player influence, combat systems that I know of, is in Disciples 2. The player has one to six turns (depending on party size), and all but one of those can only be attacks. Combats are simple—yet the actions are decisive; and mistakes often end in defeat. The game has A LOT of combat. If the fights were complex, they could become a chore. The game is about land-snatching, not the individual victories.

*The game is addictive as hell; I once played it for eighteen hours straight...Yet when I first played it, I had begun to think it was a mistake to have purchased it (during that first half hour... because it seemed so simple.)

Honestly, they should have done something like the Indiana Jones map scenes at the beginning of every DLC, because ultimately they all suffer from the same "this place is just right around the corner"-feeling.

 

[Unorthodox Outlander]

I suppose another gripe I have about this game is that it's turning me into a flipping kleptomaniac. It is no longer enough to grab the valuable things--no, I have to get ALL the things... and when you're making multiple trips just to grab that last set of ruined books and empty bottles to sell for a few more meagre caps, you've definitely developed a problem.

I really don't mind that too much though. What really gets me mad is when a few of the items can't be grabbed because they've somehow gotten bugged by the game. They just sit there, mocking me as I futilely spam e from every possible direction and angle. It's right there! It's right in front of me! What, have I triggered some sort of traumatic flashback by looking at this one burned book on the ground, rendering my arms inoperable!?

 

[Hassknecht]

That's not a gripe with New Vegas, though, more like a personal issue

 

[NMLevesque]

They didn't need a super complex system to become what they are.

I've many times seen people claim something to the effect of "if Fallout had combat like Jagged Alliace 2, it would've been so much better", but I don't think that's true. Combat instances would've just become way more heavyhanded and the requirements for combat characters would've skyrocketed, and these effects would've inevitably drown the rest of the gameplay feautres. Just look at the newly made Divinity OS games for an example of that effect.

A simpler (relatively speaking) system for combat is not necessarily a mark of "bad" design or unfun gameplay. There was room to improve for certain, but Fallout was not a combat game to begin with, not before Tactics and onwards from there; it was a game where combat was just a feature. In that light it was actually better to not go overboard with combat design.

Agreed. I don't mean that simple is bad, but the spectrum for complexity on these is pretty high.

 

[Risewild]

I wouldn't call classic Fallout turn combat simple at all. If anything I would call it too complicated.
I once take a look at how the game calculates hit chance, damage, AC, DR, DT, hit nearby characters, how and where does a thrown weapon lands if the target is missed, how and when a timed explosive detonates, and many damn things more that are used in the turn based combat... And it was extremely complex.
I would say it was overly complex.

The game is doing so many calculations based on so many different values that are getting acquired from so many different stats and numbers that is enough to meltdown some people's brains.

For the player, all they see is click here to get attack "modes", click here to get targeted hits, click here to reload and click here to shoot/attack the enemy. But the game combat is just a complicated clockwork-like machine full of tiny springs and cogs keeping everything together.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Speaking of which, my last character in Fallout 1 was a melee fast shot. It got annoying very quick, I let go of him, I got sick of the business of hitting the enemies with the BoS mallet and they get knocked out of my distance (sometimes a bug makes them cross the map, it's really funny). If I could aim at their legs, are they still knocked out a few feet away?

 

[Gizmojunk]

Speaking of which, my last character in Fallout 1 was a melee fast shot. It got annoying very quick, I let go of him, I got sick of the business of hitting the enemies with the BoS mallet and they get knocked out of my distance (sometimes a bug makes them cross the map, it's really funny). If I could aim at their legs, are they still knocked out a few feet away?

That's a Super-Sledge, and I don't think that's a bug... more likely the result of a critical hit. I appreciate when that happens to melee opponents, because they expend their action points to close the distance into melee range; where I have the PC just hit them again.

 

[Risewild]

Yeah, the Super Sledge has the Weapon Knockback perk. Which means that when knocked down, for each 5 points of damage, the enemy will be pushed one Hex. In a critical that causes 100+ damage, the enemy will be pushed 20+ Hexes.

 

[Canaris]

Hmm my biggest gripe against FNV is the amount of bugs and stupid shit from F3 in it - karma, losing karma for stealing from rapists, raiders and convicts, bug in mechanics etc.

Beside that its a far superior game to both F3 and F4.

 

[Lexx]

Karma is irrelevant anyway.

 

[Einhanderc7]

For a game that only had 1 year of development by a developer who was unfamiliar with the engine; I'm happy with what I got. Yeah there are some nonsensical issues with it, but overall I found them to be minor when compared with the overall scope of the game.

Besides I don't think holding Obsidian responsible for Bethesda's wonky engine is justified. Considering Bethesda tied their hands on it's development.

 

[Jogre]

Honestly, they should have done something like the Indiana Jones map scenes at the beginning of every DLC, because ultimately they all suffer from the same "this place is just right around the corner"-feeling.

Given that Big Mountain and the Sierra Mardre are hidden semi-mythical locations, I don't think it'd really make sense to show exactly where they are on a map.

 

[NMLevesque]

Given that Big Mountain and the Sierra Mardre are hidden semi-mythical locations, I don't think it'd really make sense to show exactly where they are on a map.

They indicated that Big Mt is on the edge of the Divide which is Death Valley, and referenced various highways which narrow things down a fair bit. So it's not a total mystery.

 

[Einhanderc7]

From my perspective I actually think it would be wise of them to map out the various locations of DLC's. The reason I say that is because the way Fallout and Fallout 2 approached this with a large area map of the region. Personally I would very much like to know where on a map these locals are simply from a design perspective.

Otherwise you could end up with the "Simpsons/South Park" issue of everything is everywhere so deal with it approach. While a developer can find ways to work around it, it is much more difficult when both the overworld and DLC have specific maps to them.

Therefore if they were to take a generic map of the United States and simply put a pin in areas where they would fit, it could literally save them a great deal of time in the future. Especially if they ever intend to return to those areas, or intend to use a nearby region.

 

[Gizmojunk]

I am in favor of a full size world map like Fallout had. As I understand it, Bethesda did start out with a much larger world map, but Todd chose to delete most of it—probably due to pacing concerns; the same problem New Vegas had with its own world map. Bethesda just wouldn't accept a proper Fallout style travel map in their game; it just had to be FPP, or instant.