Hell is not frozen yet! (Diablo 3)

[Crni Vuk]

The more I hear about Diablo 3, the more excited I get for Torchlight 2.

Yeah. Because more crap in 3D is what the world needs !

Their screenshots look even worse then D3.

 

[Bodybag]

I'm wondering how far they'll take this microtransaction thing.

I hope we don't see shit like seriously gimped stash space unless you pay $3 or so per character to extend it.

I think the "microtransaction thing" is strictly limited to the OPTIONAL RMT auction house, at least until official DLC and xpac stuff rolls down the pipeline.

Stash space is something that they have indicated will scale with your progression in the game, ie in correlation with acts completed, character level, or difficulty (unsure if they've decided on exactly which dictate it).

 

[UniversalWolf]

And they'll ridicule the people who won't accept it.

A rape of society, people.

Didn't take long, did it?

If you want to give money to people who have contempt for you in order to play a game, that's your business.

 

[Bodybag]

It's a vicious cycle.

I have absolutely no doubt that this will be a huge seller, no matter how awful it is. It's impossible to overestimate the herd-following idiocy of gamers as a whole. They'll accept any level of exploitation to get their fix.

You see what you did there, right?

And they'll ridicule the people who won't accept it.

Even the people who equate a totally optional auction house with rape? If such a bulletproof analogy is not enough to deter these types then I guess throwing your hands in the air is the only logical course left.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I can totally see why people are being iffy about the auction thing, because there are numerous games where the idea is abused with the purpose of milking money from the gamers. I've played numerous games with "totally optional" cash shops that purposefully inhibited free gameplay to make people spend money.

Now, nobody can be sure how Blizzard will handle it in D3 until it's live, but the opportunity for them to do something like that at any time is definitely there.

 

[Bodybag]

I can totally see why people are being iffy about the auction thing, because there are numerous games where the idea is abused with the purpose of milking money from the gamers. I've played numerous games with "totally optional" cash shops that purposefully inhibited free gameplay to make people spend money.

Those games are P4F, right? Incidentally Diablo 3 is expected to sell for around $60. What free gameplay are you expecting them to inhibit in order to herd gamers towards microtransaction?

Now, nobody can be sure how Blizzard will handle it in D3 until it's live, but the opportunity for them to do something like that at any time is definitely there.

Here's what we do know: the AH is for trading between players. The prices of items are set by the players. The RMAH is separate from the normal AH, and is excluded from Hardcore mode. It will not be something anyone is forced to use. Players will either grind for loot the old fashioned way, trade items and gold for better stuff, or take the instant gratification route and pay a premium for their godly gear. There's a case to be made about balance but it's a pretty weak one, since this game isn't competitive in the classical sense.

Blizzard DOES get a piece of the RMAH action, though. So feel free to imagine them rubbing their hands together fiendishly and chuckling while counting fat stacks of bills.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Those games are P4F, right? Incidentally Diablo 3 is expected to sell for around $60. What free gameplay are you expecting them to inhibit in order to herd gamers towards microtransaction?

See, but that doesn't make a difference because the system is the same. Who says just because the game is $60 you can't milk microtransactions later?

As for what they could purposefully screw up, I've seen a few concerns in this thread, like:

I hope we don't see shit like seriously gimped stash space unless you pay $3 or so per character to extend it.

Here's another that I see often: make good item drop rates so low they're almost non-existent and watch the players flock to the RMAH as they struggle to complete the game or get annoyed by the impossible grind.

Once again, I'm NOT saying this will happen, just saying there's room for that to happen, so I sympathize with the people concerned about it, because I can see why they're worried.

It will not be something anyone is forced to use.

You keep repeating this one, and I don't really get why you stress it so much. It's a weak defense tbh, since you can design a game around forcing the player to pay real money while still under the pretense of an "optional" shop.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Here's another that I see often: make good item drop rates so low they're almost non-existent and watch the players flock to the RMAH as they struggle to complete the game or get annoyed by the impossible grind.

If D2 drop rates are anything to judge by then this isn't as unlikely as I would prefer. Top teir loot is a bitch to get in most games and I'd be absolutely shocked if D3 is any different. Granted, the people most effected by this would be the PvP community. I hope the drop rates are reasonable but I'm doubtful.

 

[Phil the Nuka-Cola Dude]

If D2 drop rates are anything to judge by then this isn't as unlikely as I would prefer. Top teir loot is a bitch to get in most games and I'd be absolutely shocked if D3 is any different. Granted, the people most effected by this would be the PvP community. I hope the drop rates are reasonable but I'm doubtful.

If they keep the drop rates like D2, where you literally need to spend hundreds upon hundreds of hours mindlessly grinding bosses to try and get top-tier items (Which you'll still probably never see); I'll happily drop a few bucks on the auction house and be on my way.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

^That's exactly why AH is such a bad idea. It's fine if you wanna make money, but make drop rates reasonable enough so that people aren't forced to buy the items. I'd be personally pissed if that happened - I spend $60 to get the game, and then I have to spend more on in-game items so I can actually enjoy it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

though how is that in any way different to Diablo 2 though ?

All which changes is that something which was "illegal" before can be done now inside the game. IF the drop-rates are in any way form and shape similar to the way how it worked in Diablo 2.

I don't like the idea of "microtransactions" if I am honest. But that is for multi player games or games where you have no other costs because to really enjoy the game you HAVE to buy things for money (except your a masochist).

But I doubt this will be the case for Diablo 3. As long you stay away from that silly PvP battles seriously those are in Diablo only for the "lulz". I never understood those people which really went for that. As its obvious the game was not really designed with that in mind.

So even without the auction house do you really think many people would NOT buy equipment and use it in the game ? Somehow. I mean hey. Many do it for WoW as well ...

 

[James Snowscoran]

It's not like it's a pvp-centric game anyway. Pay to win isn't such a huge problem when core gameplay is pve-focused rather than pvp.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

So even without the auction house do you really think many people would NOT buy equipment and use it in the game ? Somehow. I mean hey. Many do it for WoW as well ...

Just because some people do shady stuff, doesn't make it should be made official. Instead, maybe they should've thought on improving the game in a way that less people resort to that, and/or establishing a tighter control on it. Just because some people "somehow" find a way to buy, say, heroin, ANYWAY, doesn't mean the government should legalize it and open official stores to take a cut of the drug lords' profit.

 

[Bodybag]

Oh good lord, from rape to heroin.

Instead, maybe they should've thought on improving the game in a way that less people resort to that, and/or establishing a tighter control on it.

It sure sounds like they've got that part covered. I dunno if you're seriously suggesting that they make the drop rate that much more generous in an effort to deflate the market, but I'll just go ahead and submit that would indeed harm the game more than the AH ever could. I'm not seeing how any of this poses any harm to the gamers, though. As for your other posts above:

See, but that doesn't make a difference because the system is the same. Who says just because the game is $60 you can't milk microtransactions later?

The system is NOT the same. P4F games typically offer a basic FREE gameplay package with (in my limited experience) unlockable gear/abilities, some of which can be earned by grinding but all of which can simply be bought from the developer.

Diablo 3 is a full-priced retail game with all abilities and gear availiable from the outset (you simply need to go out and earn them). They cannot be bought from the developer. Once players start to find items deemed valuable enough to sell for real-world money, there will be an optional trading mechanism for just that (in addition to a regular trading mechanism where in-game currency is used). All of this is controlled by players.

Y'know, since the game is online only, I could see people maybe worrying about a subscription-based model or something being adopted down the road, but Blizzard seems to have enough market saturation between WoW and their as-yet-unannounced MMO IP that's in the pipe, so I think they're keen on keeping Diablo 3 out of direct competition.

You keep repeating this one, and I don't really get why you stress it so much. It's a weak defense tbh, since you can design a game around forcing the player to pay real money while still under the pretense of an "optional" shop.

I keep repeating it because I am reasonable. Countering an assertion that something is "forced" by mentioning that it is "optional" isn't weak, it's sane. Weak is a word I'd use to describe the construction of an argument around the implications of what a developer COULD do, in the future. Yeah, Blizzard COULD release D3 as a subscription-based MMO. They COULD make items, skills and stats into cash-only unlocks. Heck, they COULD start charging $.10 per 100 character post rates on the Bnet forums, those evil cocksuckers. But they haven't given any indication of when or why they would even do such things, and from what they've shown so far, they certainly haven't started with D3.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So even without the auction house do you really think many people would NOT buy equipment and use it in the game ? Somehow. I mean hey. Many do it for WoW as well ...

Just because some people do shady stuff, doesn't make it should be made official. Instead, maybe they should've thought on improving the game in a way that less people resort to that, and/or establishing a tighter control on it. Just because some people "somehow" find a way to buy, say, heroin, ANYWAY, doesn't mean the government should legalize it and open official stores to take a cut of the drug lords' profit.

Did you just compared buying equipment in Diablo with heroin right now ?

What might come next ? blaming FPS games for the people which kill others in a rampage ?

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I keep repeating it because I am reasonable. Countering an assertion that something is "forced" by mentioning that it is "optional" isn't weak, it's sane.

College education is "optional". Yet on today's job market it is hard to survive without one. Just because something isn't mandatory, doesn't mean it can't be forced at the same time.

Weak is a word I'd use to describe the construction of an argument around the implications of what a developer COULD do, in the future.

Considering that my original statement was about people's concerns being reasonable, the argument has to be based on the possibilities. Blizzard CAN realistically do most of the things you mentioned, hence there is room to be concerned about. If your argument is "we can't be worried until they actually do something bad", it's the one that doesn't make sense. Imagine a terrorist-hostage situation which law enforcement decides to ignore because "well, they haven't killed anyone yet, it's silly to be concerned about something the terrorists COULD do".

Did you just compared buying equipment in Diablo with heroin right now ?

I'm comparing rules of the game with real-world laws to show you that the "people would do it anyway so let's make it official" approach is bull. It's an analogy that works, and I don't see why you have to jump on it. If that's too extreme for you, go ahead and substitute any minor crime that's morally acceptable for you, the analogy should still work.

What might come next ? blaming FPS games for the people which kill others in a rampage ?

I fail to see the logic here.

 

[Crni Vuk]

hyperbole hyperbole hypberbole. That is the logic I want to make.

Selling equipment in/outside of WoW or Diablo is not violating ANY kind of law. At least here. You will not get in jail nor will you be forced to pay any fine. All consequences depend completely on the contract of the publisher/game developer. And even if they don't allow it the worst case you might face is that your game will get banned. And then you have even still the option to buy another one for a different account. - That is what sure many did when they got banned for cheats in Diablo 2 or CS.

To say that. It is not so much that I disagree with you (and others) because I do NOT like the idea of the auction house. But we should still stay somewhat reasonable and thus not fall back to those "heroin/rape" thing just because we disagree with Blizzard which makes no sense since heroin is a whole different matter then selling/buying in game equipment which is pretty normal for MANY games today.

And I do think that Blizzard will have to hear in the future about the rather "questionable" side of that auction house as we can be 100% sure that some poor souls will be forced to play D3 to collect equipment so it can be sold if the game will be very popular.

But reality is sadly that there is no "law" here affected by it. And I mean people are buying their sneakers from Nike ? Or food products from Nestle no ? And all the other goods from companies which are known to exploit cheap labor in other places and not caring about safety. Some of which are even known for rather "questionable" actions. See how Coca Cola made their business in South America and India as example. I am curious how many here have bought it. Not that this is any excuse. But we have to make a line somewhere and we can not always react crazy about companies trying to make money. I mean what Blizzard is doing is sure not THAT worse. Particularly not when you compare it to other games which offer even much content you can buy. The difference is just that Blizzard games are very popular.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

I didn't say it's breaking a law. It's breaking the rules of the game and destroying the possible balance. And like you mentioned, it is (was) a punishable offense in-game. Meaning it's more or less logically equivalent to breaking the law in in-game terms. Saying "it's ok to do that now cause we're making money off it too" means doing nothing about the problem.

And you did hit another downside of the RMAH - half of the user base will be some poor souls in India or China just grinding away instead of finding a proper job. I don't know about everyone else, but my personal enjoyment of a game decreases if I see a significant amount of people around me not having fun with it. Kills the atmosphere.

 

[Crni Vuk]

It's breaking the rules of the game and destroying the possible balance.

We can not really say much about that.

As said the concept of trading/buying equipment is true for many F2P games. How comes it suddenly is "bad" in Diablo 3 ?

half of the user base will be some poor souls in India or China just grinding away instead of finding a proper job. I don't know about everyone else, but my personal enjoyment of a game decreases if I see a significant amount of people around me not having fun with it. Kills the atmosphere.

Do you drink Coca Cola sometimes ?

You eat sometimes food from Nestle ?

I am also curious if you like the taste of meat. considering how most animals are threated.

Things is. We can always blow things out of proportions. And bitch about many things. But truth is. We are all part one way or another of "hypocrisy".

What Blizzard is doing might not sound that great. But we have to look at it from 2 sides. It only works because "we" buy those equipment. If people would really feel so disgusted by it it would not happen. Though I am not blaming you to say that. I mean as said. We could set an example. Dont buy Diablo 3. Dont support Blizzard anymore. But how likely is that to happen

 

[James Snowscoran]

I keep repeating it because I am reasonable. Countering an assertion that something is "forced" by mentioning that it is "optional" isn't weak, it's sane.

College education is "optional". Yet on today's job market it is hard to survive without one. Just because something isn't mandatory, doesn't mean it can't be forced at the same time.

Yeah but this is an argument based entirely on speculation. Specifically, you're assuming that Blizzard is going to balance the game's difficulty so that players will have to either grind massively or buy items from botters/farmers in order to finish the game. This is not a fair or plausible assumption.