How in the hell can they say this game is Faction balanced?

[Plautus]

Why does the NCR exist? To get money and power for fat cats? No, it annex's things because it want's to rally other provinces under it's banner and make life better for people, with the ultimate goal of securing the United States.

What? Maybe in the beginning (I think there is actually someone saying that this was the kind of ideals Tandi had), certainly not when it reached a certain size.

Pray tell, for what purpose does the NCR exist then?

It exists to serve its own bureaucracy. Imperialism usually is conquest of other peoples for greedy purposes under false pretenses of bringing better culture and peace. Look at the United States' westwards expansion and what they did to the Native Americans. They promised to bring 'civilization' and brought only suffering and their own people. The NCR is highly similar in nature, if you look at their relations with tribes like the Great Khans, where they basically commit genocide against them and shove the problem under the rug. One could argue that the Khans aren't a great group of people, but then, the Khans we see in New Vegas have had all their children slaughtered by those 'Knights in shining armor', the NCR Rangers...

The Legion has similarly expansionist ideals; however, the Legion actually brings order to its lands and safety to its people. While the Legion brings death and slavery, it raises people up, if only at a great cost.

 

[C2B]

Speech

And as we all know that worked out so well in execution.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Pray tell, for what purpose does the NCR exist then?

Nations have purposes? Other than to regulate its own society, I mean.

 

[Nalano]

Pray tell, for what purpose does the NCR exist then?

Nations have purposes?

Their purposes are to secure the safety and wellbeing of their populace. Who counts as "populace" differs between each nation, but that's the basic point of them. Expansionism is usually because of the nullification of perceived threats (neighboring nations) or to secure resources.

The NCR has obvious reasons to be in the Mojave, then.

from a development standpoint it's arguably the only way you can sell a joinable faction with such draconian ideals (i.e. the roman stuff is a nigh-on constant reminder that "well, the Romans did it! Who doesn't like the Romans!").

Compared to the other empires and states during the reign of the Roman republic and empire, the Romans were enlightened. Compared to modern nations the Romans are laughably crude.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Their purposes are to secure the safety and wellbeing of their populace. Who counts as "populace" differs between each nation, but that's the basic point of them. Expansionism is usually because of the nullification of perceived threats (neighboring nations) or to secure resources.

The NCR has obvious reasons to be in the Mojave, then.

Yes, I know. But I think I misinterpreted Threepwood post, I thought he meant that the NCR had altruisitic and idealistic ideals, annexing everyone for the well being of those being annexeted and not to secure resources for their own populace or to squash potential threats. Or maybe he does mean that?

 

[Plautus]

Compared to the other empires and states during the reign of the Roman republic and empire, the Romans were enlightened. Compared to modern nations the Romans are laughably crude.

I think that the Wasteland is more like the ancient world than the modern one, so these Romans (the Legion) would seem enlightened.

 

[Nalano]

I think that the Wasteland is more like the ancient world than the modern one, so these Romans (the Legion) would seem enlightened.

Not really.

We have automatic weapons, industrial centers, distributed bureaucracy via modern sensibilities (including every major breakthrough in social concepts up to and including the constitution, civil liberties and universal human rights) and instantaneous communication via radio.

It is not a complete reboot; merely a restructuring.

 

[Threepwood]

Yes, I know. But I think I misinterpreted Threepwood post, I thought he meant that the NCR had altruisitic and idealistic ideals, annexing everyone for the well being of those being annexeted and not to secure resources for their own populace or to squash potential threats. Or maybe he does mean that?

They do the latter, the former is a fortunate byproduct. They want Hoover Dam, lets say. Assuming they had control of it, and by extension the Mojave, they would ensure well being for 'thier' citizens.

Imperialism usually is conquest of other peoples for greedy purposes under false pretenses of bringing better culture and peace. Look at the United States' westwards expansion and what they did to the Native Americans. They promised to bring 'civilization' and brought only suffering and their own people. The NCR is highly similar in nature, if you look at their relations with tribes like the Great Khans, where they basically commit genocide against them and shove the problem under the rug. One could argue that the Khans aren't a great group of people, but then, the Khans we see in New Vegas have had all their children slaughtered by those 'Knights in shining armor', the NCR Rangers...

The NCR isn't Imperialistic. Well, America 'did' bring civilisation to Native Indians.

The Khans are like Gauls, assuming you'r Roman theme. However these Gauls are drug addicts and backwards.

 

[Walpknut]

emm they brought civilization to the Natives by slaughtering most of them and push the remaining ones to remote zones far away from their original territories. No imperialistic at all, man.
And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

The NCR does that too, I mean look at how they treat the people in Freeside, or how they wouldn't protect Primm out of petty excuses, I mean they say they are short on soldiers, but their guns could kill the Powder Gangers pretty easily, the Legion doesn't go there until the Battle of Hoover Dam, and in exchange of this protection they tax the people of Primm to hell and back.
The NCR is only good on the short term, once they run out of bullets or interest in the occupied zone they woudl most likely start to abandon it.
The Legion are a bucnh of slaver scum but in the long run they would actualy keep a solid regime of order in the Mojave, one that would be full of slavery but an orderly one.

Thats why I prefer Mr House, I mean immortality in space? but of course that immortality turns you into some ungodly living carcass trapped in a tube.

 

[ramessesjones]

NCR and the Legion are both good for their home regions, but not for Vegas.

Compared the tribes of Arizona and New Mexico, the Legion was a big step forward, but for a more developed location like Vegas, it is the opposite.

NCR has been good in California and northern Neveda, but they are unwanted and overextended in Vegas and primarily there to expand their resources and fight the Legion.

The Legion and NCR are both aggressors, but that is the nature of growing societies, and it fits in the with the war never changes theme of the series.

 

[Nalano]

emm they brought civilization to the Natives by slaughtering most of them and push the remaining ones to remote zones far away from their original territories. No imperialistic at all, man.
The NCR does that too, I mean look at how they treat the people in Freeside, or how they wouldn't protect Primm out of petty excuses, I mean they say they are short on soldiers, but their guns could kill the Powder Gangers pretty easily, the Legion doesn't go there until the Battle of Hoover Dam, and in exchange of this protection they tax the people of Primm to hell and back.
The NCR is only good on the short term, once they run out of bullets or interest in the occupied zone they woudl most likely start to abandon it.
The Legion are a bucnh of slaver scum but in the long run they would actualy keep a solid regime of order in the Mojave, one that would be full of slavery but an orderly one.

Thats why I prefer Mr House, I mean immortality in space? but of course that immortality turns you into some ungodly living carcass trapped in a tube.

A few things.

1) "We're overstretched on soldiers" is not a petty excuse. It's the only viable one. Most of what you do if you decide to help the NCR is solve a lot of their more intractable problems for them in order to allow them to more equitably distribute their available resources - including Freeside.
2) Wiping people out is far easier than maintaining order. Afghanistan would be easy... if we just killed everybody.
3) The NCR has an industrial base. People are, indeed, manufacturing bullets. Less can be said for the Legion - especially when it comes to manufacturing and distributing medicine and training doctors.
4) Murdering slaver fascism cannot be so easily dismissed: After all, how will an "orderly" world be of use to you when you've been murdered and thrown into an unmarked ditch along with most everybody else?

 

[Threepwood]

No imperialistic at all, man.

I said the NCR wasn't. You then respond with that to me talking about the USA.

And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

It was not a mistake of intellect but a typo.

 

[Walpknut]

No imperialistic at all, man.

I said the NCR wasn't. You then respond with that to me talking about the USA.

And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

It was not a mistake of intellect but a typo.

a Typo? writing Amrica is a typo, mistaking the British with "america" is not. And the NCR are an invading force that well practicaly bullies people into joining them, like in the quest GI Blues, they just outright invade Freeside and put a gun to the Kings face to make them cooperate. Their soldiers attack the locals and their only interest in Primm is their position as a trading route, if they don't win at the Hoover Dam and you leave them to protect Primm they just abandon them to their Luck, the NCR is far form altruistic. They are imperialistic, only they use a more subtle approach.

A few things.

1) "We're overstretched on soldiers" is not a petty excuse. It's the only viable one. Most of what you do if you decide to help the NCR is solve a lot of their more intractable problems for them in order to allow them to more equitably distribute their available resources - including Freeside.
2) Wiping people out is far easier than maintaining order. Afghanistan would be easy... if we just killed everybody.
3) The NCR has an industrial base. People are, indeed, manufacturing bullets. Less can be said for the Legion - especially when it comes to manufacturing and distributing medicine and training doctors.
4) Murdering slaver fascism cannot be so easily dismissed: After all, how will an "orderly" world be of use to you when you've been murdered and thrown into an unmarked ditch along with most everybody else?

1. But the camp outside of Primm has enough people to protect the Little town, the Powder Gangers are only a Threat to small towns.
3. Yes, you can make them strengthen their power by helping them blackmail a Caravan company and a little faction of Energy Weapons manufacturers and Bullying the Followers into helping them, thats FAR from altruistic. And The legion doesn't use Bullets and expensive weapons, they just train their forces to be super soldiers, They don't have to mine, and if they take ocntrol of the farms thats food.
4. Well considering the Legion only murders and crufie you if you commit crimes its a hell of a good motivator for not commiting crimes.
I am not syaing the Legion occupied Mojave is a place I would like to live in, they are a Bunch of assholes, but so are the NCR, they would be completely incompetent for mroe than a few years, there woudl be revolts and riots, Blackmailing the people that give you guns and transportation is not a good idea.

 

[Threepwood]

Typo? writing Amrica is a typo, mistaking the British with "america" is not. And the NCR are an invading force that well practicaly bullies people into joining them, like in the quest GI Blues, they just outright invade Freeside and put a gun to the Kings face to make them cooperate. Their soldiers attack the locals and their only interest in Primm is their position as a trading route, if they don't win at the Hoover Dam and you leave them to protect Primm they just abandon them to their Luck, the NCR is far form altruistic. They are imperialistic, only they use a more subtle approach.

No, a typo is a typing error, friend.

No, no that isn't what happens. The courier CAN make that choice. However you can also form an alliance between the Kings and NCR.

Regardless of using it as a trade route, they still protect it. They still have an armed camp taking up half of it.

 

[Walpknut]

No, a typo is a typing error, friend.

No, no that isn't what happens. The courier CAN make that choice. However you can also form an alliance between the Kings and NCR.

Regardless of using it as a trade route, they still protect it. They still have an armed camp taking up half of it.

well yeah I guess while typing "The British" you can somehow make mistakes while typing and msitakenly write America

The Alliance is still made by the NCR busting into the Kings HQ and telling them to choose, unless you didn't use the King's Favor to enter the strip. With Primm if they lose at Hoover Dam they just let the town to rot. With Slim Primm or the ex-powder ganer as sheriffs they live better unless the Legion wins.

 

[Threepwood]

[/quote]

well yeah I guess while typing "The British" you can somehow make mistakes while typing and msitakenly write America

The Alliance is still made by the NCR busting into the Kings HQ and telling them to choose, unless you didn't use the King's Favor to enter the strip. With Primm if they lose at Hoover Dam they just let the town to rot. With Slim Primm or the ex-powder ganer as sheriffs they live better unless the Legion wins.[/quote]

Typing the wrong word on IM is hardly a rare situation. "bursting in" ? it's a public acsess door. Yes. Because it would be wise to stay there with half a dozen guys when the Legion sweeps through. Also your working on 'if's' nothing is canon yet.

 

[Faceless Stranger]

I wish the Master was still around

 

[Plautus]

emm they brought civilization to the Natives by slaughtering most of them and push the remaining ones to remote zones far away from their original territories. No imperialistic at all, man.
And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

Don't try that bullshit on me. I specifically used the phrases 'United States' and 'Westward expansion'. I didn't mention early colonialism at all.

The United States' Manifest Destiny-inspired Westward expansion WAS imperialism because the US government used the weak argument that 'it is our destiny to expand to the West coast' to steal land from the Native Americans and Mexico. Mexico, from the time it was known as New Spain and the time of the Conquistadores, owned the territory in New Mexico, Arizona, and California. James K Polk declared war on Mexico for the sole purpose of expanding US borders. Ulysses S Grant, one of the principal commanders of the Mexican-American War later wrote that it was "the most unjust war waged by strong country against a weak one". America had stolen a large part of the unstable Mexican Republic's land for its own good.

As for the Natives, after slaughtering them and pushing them out of their own territory, American settlers took over native land for the sake of their own material gain. Imperialism is practiced by invading powers against weaker ones for principal reason of obtaining land and resources. After we forced Natives off their own land, we settled it and abused it for resources. For example, after Andrew Jackson forced the Cherokees off their ancestral home, one Indian woman realized she forgot a possession of hers an hour into her journey on the Trail of Tears. She convinced the soldiers to let her return to her house to get that possession, but when he arrived home, her house was already stolen by a white prospector. In fact, all the Cherokees' homes were stolen by white prospectors: Jackson and the State of Georgia wanted to take Cherokee land for economic purposes.

If that isn't Imperialism, I don't know what is.

 

[Walpknut]

emm they brought civilization to the Natives by slaughtering most of them and push the remaining ones to remote zones far away from their original territories. No imperialistic at all, man.
And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

Don't try that bullshit on me. I specifically used the phrases 'United States' and 'Westward expansion'. I didn't mention early colonialism at all.

The United States' Manifest Destiny-inspired Westward expansion WAS imperialism because the US government used the weak argument that 'it is our destiny to expand to the West coast' to steal land from the Native Americans and Mexico. Mexico, from the time it was known as New Spain and the time of the Conquistadores, owned the territory in New Mexico, Arizona, and California. James K Polk declared war on Mexico for the sole purpose of expanding US borders. Ulysses S Grant, one of the principal commanders of the Mexican-American War later wrote that it was "the most unjust war waged by strong country against a weak one". America had stolen a large part of the unstable Mexican Republic's land for its own good.

As for the Natives, after slaughtering them and pushing them out of their own territory, American settlers took over native land for the sake of their own material gain. Imperialism is practiced by invading powers against weaker ones for principal reason of obtaining land and resources. After we forced Natives off their own land, we settled it and abused it for resources. For example, after Andrew Jackson forced the Cherokees off their ancestral home, one Indian woman realized she forgot a possession of hers an hour into her journey on the Trail of Tears. She convinced the soldiers to let her return to her house to get that possession, but when he arrived home, her house was already stolen by a white prospector. In fact, all the Cherokees' homes were stolen by white prospectors: Jackson and the State of Georgia wanted to take Cherokee land for economic purposes.

If that isn't Imperialism, I don't know what is.

Calm down, that message was not even directed at you. I was basicaly sayign the same as what you just wrote. it was directed at Threepwood, who said that "America" brought civilization to the Native "Indians".

 

[Plautus]

emm they brought civilization to the Natives by slaughtering most of them and push the remaining ones to remote zones far away from their original territories. No imperialistic at all, man.
And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

Don't try that bullshit on me. I specifically used the phrases 'United States' and 'Westward expansion'. I didn't mention early colonialism at all.

The United States' Manifest Destiny-inspired Westward expansion WAS imperialism because the US government used the weak argument that 'it is our destiny to expand to the West coast' to steal land from the Native Americans and Mexico. Mexico, from the time it was known as New Spain and the time of the Conquistadores, owned the territory in New Mexico, Arizona, and California. James K Polk declared war on Mexico for the sole purpose of expanding US borders. Ulysses S Grant, one of the principal commanders of the Mexican-American War later wrote that it was "the most unjust war waged by strong country against a weak one". America had stolen a large part of the unstable Mexican Republic's land for its own good.

As for the Natives, after slaughtering them and pushing them out of their own territory, American settlers took over native land for the sake of their own material gain. Imperialism is practiced by invading powers against weaker ones for principal reason of obtaining land and resources. After we forced Natives off their own land, we settled it and abused it for resources. For example, after Andrew Jackson forced the Cherokees off their ancestral home, one Indian woman realized she forgot a possession of hers an hour into her journey on the Trail of Tears. She convinced the soldiers to let her return to her house to get that possession, but when he arrived home, her house was already stolen by a white prospector. In fact, all the Cherokees' homes were stolen by white prospectors: Jackson and the State of Georgia wanted to take Cherokee land for economic purposes.

If that isn't Imperialism, I don't know what is.

Calm down, that message was not even directed at you. I was basicaly sayign the same as what you just wrote. it was directed at Threepwood, who said that "America" brought civilization to the Native "Indians".

Sorry about that.