How in the hell can they say this game is Faction balanced?

[Walpknut]

Typing the wrong word on IM is hardly a rare situation. "bursting in" ? it's a public acsess door. Yes. Because it would be wise to stay there with half a dozen guys when the Legion sweeps through. Also your working on 'if's' nothing is canon yet.

I guess anyone can mistakenly America when writing the British, Why don't you just say "I got my ideas mixed up" instead of trying to convince me that it was a typo? thats just lame.
Bursting in, Freesiders can enter the King's HQ not the NCR people, and they enter with guns, thats hostile takeover.
12 guys with good militar armor and powerful rifles that are most likely getting supplies by protecting the trading town somehow fare worst than an ex-convict or a Protectron? weird how that works.
And "you can't use ifs because nothing is canon yet" is the stupidest argument. The ifs I use are what the game basicaly tells you will happen in the diferent scenarios, is liek saying that because there is not a canon ending for Gecko not fixing the Plant wouldn't result in the town being whiped out by Vault city.Or that because there is no canon ending for New vegas you can't say that the Legion would install a fascist regime in the Mojave.

 

[Anarchosyn]

And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

Actually, he never said the British weren't the first on the continent. Despite his remonstrations, I agree with the suggestion that America brought (i.e. forced) "civilization" on the Native Americans. The American government had a much longer and protracted interrelationship with the Native nations than the British and, to my knowledge, no nations were toppled or otherwise overpowered by westerners in North America till after the war of independence (land was confiscated but the tribes remained autonomous powers). The first reservations date from the 19th century.

 

[Nalano]

And well "America" wasn't the ones that arrived at the continent, it was the British. Learn your history.

Actually, he never said the British weren't the first on the continent. Despite his remonstrations, I agree with the suggestion that America brought (i.e. forced) "civilization" on the Native Americans. The American government had a much longer and protracted interrelationship with the Native nations than the British and, to my knowledge, no nations were toppled or otherwise overpowered by westerners in North America till after the war of independence (land was confiscated but the tribes remained autonomous powers). The first reservations date from the 19th century.

What use is being an "autonomous power" if your (Dutch and English) neighbors have no compunction merely taking the land they want, and killing those who complain?

Reservations are because they had no more land to push the remaining tribes onto.

 

[brfritos]

strange how most if not all topics about factions end in "why I hate the NCR" discusions

Maybe because Obsidian put the NCR in everything...

Back to the topic, the game is indeed unbalanced related to the factions, you don't see a single town in control of Legion. I mean, NCR is fucking incompetent for not being able to crush a bunch of guys that use machetes as weapons, when they have rifles and Anti-material rifles.
And you people want them in control?
WTF?!

You have discussions in every location about NCR and House, wich later in the game is turned by thoughts of vegas without House, if following the independent path of Yes Man.
But you haven't a single discussion about Legion other than "they are marauders, rapists and raiders".

The only time you see something rather than that is when talking with Cass and Raul.
And that's it.

What kind of conquerors are these that don't secure towns and make the people see that they government or ruling are better? Caesar even quote "Pax Romana", but the devs maybe skipped the history lessons, because what the Legion do is nothing of that.
Nipton is the proof.
Also, speaking about that, they forget military lessons too because if you look on the map, the conquest of Nipton, destruction of Camp Searchlight and the Cottonwood Cove and Nelson fronts make the classic "pinch" move to engulf Novac and Camp Forlon Hope or to control the entire south region with the destruction of the Mojave Outpost.

Yet, Nipton is destroyed because of the "profligates".

I don't even try anymore to make a reputation with the Legion, since I play on hardcore and they are the best source of purified water, antivenom and gold in the game, so let's waste them since the beginning.
If this kind of faction and gameplay is "intelligence", forgive me to be shallow then.

[ ]'s

 

[Tagaziel]

Back to the topic, the game is indeed unbalanced related to the factions, you don't see a single town in control of Legion. I mean, NCR is fucking incompetent for not being able to crush a bunch of guys that use machetes as weapons, when they have rifles and Anti-material rifles.

The Legion has rifles too. Every single Legionary I saw used a firearm of some kind. Yes, they prefer close combat, but they aren't as underequipped as you make them out to be.

You have discussions in every location about NCR and House, wich later in the game is turned by thoughts of vegas without House, if following the independent path of Yes Man.
But you haven't a single discussion about Legion other than "they are marauders, rapists and raiders".

The only time you see something rather than that is when talking with Cass and Raul.
And that's it.

The Legion is a leap of faith of sorts. You are, however, forgetting Dale Barton, the trader at the Fort, who explains the current situation in Arizona and New Mexico. Namely, that they are safe, prosperous areas and that many traders prefer to stick to those two states, rather than risk attacks from raiders elsewhere on the West Coast.

What kind of conquerors are these that don't secure towns and make the people see that they government or ruling are better? Caesar even quote "Pax Romana", but the devs maybe skipped the history lessons, because what the Legion do is nothing of that.

If you haven't noticed yet, Caesar interprets history and Rome very liberally, borrowing what fits with his vision and ignoring what doesn't. Besides, the Legion doesn't need to convince anyone that they are better. They simply are - and anyone who disagrees with that is enslaved, crucified or put to the sword.

Nipton is the proof.

It isn't. Nipton was a corrupt town full of whores that would sell their loyalty to the highest bidder faster than you could say "Brahmin". Vulpes' decision to burn the town was an interesting example of a Legion frumentarii operation - they eliminated a liability (as Nipton would support the NCR if they thought their interests were in danger), weakened the NCR and the Powder Gangers and demoralized the enemy.

Also, speaking about that, they forget military lessons too because if you look on the map, the conquest of Nipton, destruction of Camp Searchlight and the Cottonwood Cove and Nelson fronts make the classic "pinch" move to engulf Novac and Camp Forlon Hope or to control the entire south region with the destruction of the Mojave Outpost.

Yet, Nipton is destroyed because of the "profligates".

It isn't. Destruction of Camp Searchlight preceded the taking of Cottonwood Cove, as it housed a substantial NCR force. The Cove was then taken by Aurelius' forces to act as a staging area for hit-and-run attacks against the NCR across the Mojave.

Nelson was taken not because it's intended to be a permanent Legion base, but a temporary camp to draw NCR's attention away from the Cove and slowly weaken Forlorn Hope by killing off their soldiers in skirmishes and demoralize them by crucifying those taken alive.

Nipton was never intended to be taken. One, it's too far from the Cove to reliably supply it with soldiers and equipment. Two, it lies between Ranger Station Charlie and the Mojave Outpost, in a very exposed location. It's not defensible. Three, the population of the town would work against the Legion the minute a prospect of a more profitable enterprise would loom on the horizon. Scourging it was the only sound decision, putting a dent in the NCR and the largest raider gang in the Mojave.

And a decent marketing stunt for the Legion too.

 

[Ausir]

Namely, that they are safe, prosperous areas and that many traders prefer to stick to those two states, rather than risk attacks from raiders elsewhere on the West Coast.

Traders are safe because the Legion relies on them for supply. But the inhabitants of these regions are not safe from the Legion, which forces all able men to join the army, makes the rest into slaves and takes the children away from their parents to be raised by priestesses.

 

[brfritos]

You have discussions in every location about NCR and House, wich later in the game is turned by thoughts of vegas without House, if following the independent path of Yes Man.
But you haven't a single discussion about Legion other than "they are marauders, rapists and raiders".

The only time you see something rather than that is when talking with Cass and Raul.
And that's it.

The Legion is a leap of faith of sorts. You are, however, forgetting Dale Barton, the trader at the Fort, who explains the current situation in Arizona and New Mexico. Namely, that they are safe, prosperous areas and that many traders prefer to stick to those two states, rather than risk attacks from raiders elsewhere on the West Coast.

Raul says something like this, as well Cass regarding caravan trade ("Legion caravans are safe as houses").
But if you look closely, every other thing regarding the Legion that you hear in the game is black and white, everything.

With the NCR, House and other factions you have opposite opinions regarding them, that's the problem with the Legion, you don't hear a single good opinion of them by ANY faction or even some people.
When you hear is because someone hates the NCR.

At least give me something mixed about the Legion like the Khans, for example.
The Khans aren't exactly "poor victims of NCR", but this also don't excuse the gross error commited in Bitter Springs by the later.

Maybe I'm ranting too much, but I will like to see something like if you are playing a female courier, you can't fight for the Legion.
At least it will be more coherent.

[ ]'s

 

[Tagaziel]

Traders are safe because the Legion relies on them for supply. But the inhabitants of these regions are not safe from the Legion, which forces all able men to join the army, makes the rest into slaves and takes the children away from their parents to be raised by priestesses.

That's your conjecture.

 

[Walpknut]

Raul says something like this, as well Cass regarding caravan trade ("Legion caravans are safe as houses").
But if you look closely, every other thing regarding the Legion that you hear in the game is black and white, everything.

With the NCR, House and other factions you have opposite opinions regarding them, that's the problem with the Legion, you don't hear a single good opinion of them by ANY faction or even some people.
[ ]'s

well it would be kind of weird for a NCR officer to say "You know maybe we are at war with the Legion and we want to kill them so much tey wouldn't even leave a soul behind, but They are not bad kids, I mean Their people are all supplied with purified Water".

 

[Crni Vuk]

Traders are safe because the Legion relies on them for supply. But the inhabitants of these regions are not safe from the Legion, which forces all able men to join the army, makes the rest into slaves and takes the children away from their parents to be raised by priestesses.

That's your conjecture.

Ausir and "assuming" something ? What are you up to. Stop smoking so much . Aussir doesnt assume. He "knows". A big difference

But to be more serious. I dont think hes to far away from the truth if we use the legion camp as base and the bit we know from the Vault, Van Buren and what Vegas tells us, sadly the game never shows the positive side of the legion, all we have is Caesars word, more or less and it doesnt show the Legion in the best light. There is no reason to assume that while people might save from the outside they are as Ausir says save from the Legion. When the time comes where they need soldiers and recruits.

well it would be kind of weird for a NCR officer to say "You know maybe we are at war with the Legion and we want to kill them so much tey wouldn't even leave a soul behind, but They are not bad kids, I mean Their people are all supplied with purified Water".

What the Legion simply is missing in the game is a place they control completely. But not some "camp" a town. With farmers eventually, merchants. Ex-legionaries, and maybe showing some desilusioned veterans. Save trading on one side. Slavery and dictatorship by caesar on the other. Just like the corruption with the NCR (if you want so).

What ever kind of DLC there will be next I really hope it will set some focus on the Legion and some regions there. Maybe some location and quests inside the usual main game (I am sure Lexx would love that as well) similar as how Gothic 2 did it with the Raven expansion.

 

[WorstUsernameEver]

Traders are safe because the Legion relies on them for supply. But the inhabitants of these regions are not safe from the Legion, which forces all able men to join the army, makes the rest into slaves and takes the children away from their parents to be raised by priestesses.

That's your conjecture.

<s>Actually,</s> I think Ausir simply reported what's written in the Official Guide, which has stuff like that on all the factions, taken directly from the design docs.

 

[Ausir]

That's your conjecture.

Which part?

To quote some bits from the official guide's collector's edition (with info taken from the design documents themselves):

The most recently captured slaves tend to be pretty skeptical. But they aren't vocal in their criticisms and their children are raised not by skeptical parents but by priestesses appointed to that task by virtue of their knowledge of and adherence to the state religion.

Nearly all physically capabl, compliant males are compelled to serve in the armed forces. The primary value of pre-menopausal females is to serve as breeding stock (with Caesar or a legate governing how they are assigned to males), though they, like older females and less physically capable men, are also used to perform a variety of other tasks.

Yeah, a real fucking paradise compared to the horrid conditions people in the NCR live in.

 

[ramessesjones]

Life in the Legion is terrible compared to NCR or Vegas. Its pretty obvious and even Caesar seems to know it. However, if we are to believe Raul life in the Legion is better than life in pre-Legion Arizona and New Mexico, because those areas didn't House or the Vault Dweller to help pacify those places like Vegas and California, so within the context of where they came from, they aren't necessarily bad, but become bad when they push out from there to more civilized areas.

Caesar's attempted selling point is that Legion won't be as bad once it merges with some more civilized people, but that is a awfully big risk to take considering the alternatives are already much better.

NCR and the Caesar are both well intentioned in the goals, but both are invading an area that wants nothing to do with them and is getting along reasonably well on their own. Neither is good, but NCR is certainly less bad for Vegas.

 

[Crni Vuk]

well to be honest New Vegas would not keep up long without NCR.

 

[Surf Solar]

Why not? They have plenty of Securitrons. Not saying it would be easy to defend, but it is possible.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I am not talking about the defence (even though the securitrons dont manage to control more then the strip, hence your whole "fetch that silver chip quest for house).

Except to the NCR there is not much if any other kind of economy in the mojave desert as they do most of the farming are responsible for many of the traders (as I assume they came at the same time with them) and most of the visitors to the strip are NCR citizen. So as said. As sad this might sound for some but the Strip or New Vegas would not hold long without the NCR (not in its current state). And even Yes Man hints at that when he talks about a potential assasination with the president that the NCR will simply blame New Vegas which means a huge drop in resources for Vegas.

 

[ramessesjones]

Of course NCR is valuable trade parter, but that doesn't make it ethical to annex the area. Life in places like Goodsprings, Westside or Freeside isn't amazing, but they are getting by without relying on NCR and would likely continue to do so. The people in the area know how to farm, to scavenge, have some understanding of science and medicine, its a place that should develop on it own as long as its not conquered by outside forces like NCR or the Legion.

 

[Plautus]

Yeah, a real fucking paradise compared to the horrid conditions people in the NCR live in.

Unarguably, the better-off citizens of NCR live in conditions unimaginable superior to those of the Legion's citizens, but look at the history and location of the NCR compared to that of the Legion.

During and slightly after the time of Fallout 2, when the NCR was first growing, there were plenty of civilized groups with which they could trade and acquire talents and technology from other factions they themselves had no hope of matching, namely the technological resources of the Shi and Vault City, and the Brotherhood of Steel (first as allies, then after they conquered the Brotherhood), or the wealth of New Reno or the material resources of Redding. With so many established communities to assimilate or at the very least trade with, the NCR was able to establish itself rather quickly and give its people a standard of life higher than that of most Wastelanders. When you consider the massive amounts of help they also received from first the Vault Dweller and Chosen One, its no surprise that they would flourish.

Caesar had no such luck founding the Legion. Unlike the NCR, he didn't have two game protagonists come out of nowhere and save his bacon very early on, nor did he have any advanced societies to assimilate or trade with: if Caesar had conquered some place like Vault City, or even gotten his hands on a G.E.C.K, I doubt he would have to subject his people to such harsh conditions.

I'm not arguing with you and I'm not saying that you're wrong (that would be stupid), and maybe I'm missing some details because I don't know too much about Van Buren; however, I'm just saying that there's a reason that the NCR is so much better off than Caesar, and that I feel as if necessity has made his society harsh rather than blatant cruelty.

 

[Ausir]

Caesar's rule might arguably be good for Arizona and the surrounding areas. But there sure as hell are better alternatives for Nevada and California.

 

[brfritos]

I am not talking about the defence (even though the securitrons dont manage to control more then the strip, hence your whole "fetch that silver chip quest for house).

Except to the NCR there is not much if any other kind of economy in the mojave desert as they do most of the farming are responsible for many of the traders (as I assume they came at the same time with them) and most of the visitors to the strip are NCR citizen. So as said. As sad this might sound for some but the Strip or New Vegas would not hold long without the NCR (not in its current state). And even Yes Man hints at that when he talks about a potential assasination with the president that the NCR will simply blame New Vegas which means a huge drop in resources for Vegas.

But this is because House "walled" New Vegas and expelled everyone that didn't conformed with him.
Also, the money that comes to Vegas from the NCR goes to House, not the city itself, so you don't have much of development with him.

When the courier arrives on Freeside and start to help things out you can see that some sort of development start to happen, so if House didn't make it everything only for himself, the region could develop in a better direction.
I bet that Shaddy Shands didn't grown up in a day.

Traders are safe because the Legion relies on them for supply. But the inhabitants of these regions are not safe from the Legion, which forces all able men to join the army, makes the rest into slaves and takes the children away from their parents to be raised by priestesses.

That's your conjecture.

Not entirelly. What information aside the Legion being a nation of slavers that pacified Arizona by killing and conquering everyone we have? They secure the roads for merchants, this we know, but how other aspects of them?
The cities are developted? The people are better than before?

When ruling Britain (Britannia) I bet that romans weren't too kind with the locals either, but you have texts and even examples in the present indicating that the region bolsted a huge development in agriculture, industry and architeture.
Sure, ruled by the Caesar's, but none the less I bet that some britains thinked life was better than before.

That's the problem with the Legion in the game, we don't have nothing of this, showing that they have a different yet viable or better way.

[ ]'s