I Admire the Purity of The Legion's Justice.

[Alphons]

I don't have a problem with killing most NCR CF inmates, but I can't call Legion killing Nipton Powder Gangers a justified action. Legion's goal wasn't killing off some dangerous bandits, their goal was sending a message that they don't care what faction you belong to, as in their eyes you're still a profiglate.

We also don't know almost anything about group that Swanick and Boxcars belonged to. All we know is that they weren't associated with Cobb, Eddie or Cooke and that they weren't a nuisance to Nipton.

 

[KingArthur]

I don't have a problem with killing most NCR CF inmates, but I can't call Legion killing Nipton Powder Gangers a justified action. Legion's goal wasn't killing off some dangerous bandits, their goal was sending a message that they don't care what faction you belong to, as in their eyes you're still a profiglate.

We also don't know almost anything about group that Swanick and Boxcars belonged to. All we know is that they weren't associated with Cobb, Eddie or Cooke and that they weren't a nuisance to Nipton.

I get what you’re saying; but that message was arguably necessary. Don’t forget that the Mojave is essentially a war zone; the Legion launches campaigns of terror against the NCR in the same way that the Viet Cong did against SOG. It’s less the message that “you’re all profligates” that’s important. More the message that “you can’t win this, no matter what you do”. The point of the mission Cold, Cold Heart is to demoralize the NCR at Mojave outpost, and make them realize that the Legion’s expansion is something they can’t stop, mostly because they can’t get their shit together.

As for Boxcars and Swanick, they were gonna kill the NCR troopers in Nipton too; the difference is that unlike the Legion, they did it solely to take their weapons and continue terrorizing the Mojave, not because it was a justified casualty of war. The atrocities that the Legion commits and the atrocities that the Powder Gangers commit are different in that the Powder Gangers terrorize people for the Hell of it; the Legion does it to demoralize the NCR and keep the other raider gangs in line.

 

[Alphons]

I get what you’re saying; but that message was arguably necessary. Don’t forget that the Mojave is essentially a war zone; the Legion launches campaigns of terror against the NCR in the same way that the Viet Cong did against SOG. It’s less the message that “you’re all profligates” that’s important. More the message that “you can’t win this, no matter what you do”. The point of the mission Cold, Cold Heart is to demoralize the NCR at Mojave outpost, and make them realize that the Legion’s expansion is something they can’t stop, mostly because they can’t get their shit together.

As for Boxcars and Swanick, they were gonna kill the NCR troopers in Nipton too; the difference is that unlike the Legion, they did it solely to take their weapons and continue terrorizing the Mojave, not because it was a justified casualty of war. The atrocities that the Legion commits and the atrocities that the Powder Gangers commit are different in that the Powder Gangers terrorize people for the Hell of it; the Legion does it to demoralize the NCR and keep the other raider gangs in line.

I'm not arguing that Legion's actions in Nipton are not justifiable- as you said they wanted to terrorise NCR, raiders and local population.

But I can't agree with it being an act of justice. Justice for me means a fair trial, punishment whose degree depends on the actions of the tried person and a message that it gives to the other people living under the same law. There was no trial and punishment didn't depend on the severity of the crime- it was all a lottery.

Legion crucifying raiders instead of putting them in jail like NCR is justice for me, because there is trial and punishment that depends on the crime.
Nipton isn't an act of justice, it's a massacre.

 

[KingArthur]

Nipton isn't an act of justice, it's a massacre.

Hold your tongue, wastrel.

In seriousness though, I definitely can see where you’re coming from; but I’m of a mind that in a war justice becomes secondary. What I mean by that is that war is undeniably Hell; but for the Legion and the Romans, it’s also glory. Justice never really factors in, and nor should it imo; whether Vulpes wants to believe it was justice or not is irrelevant next to the point that it was about sending a message. The idea that they all got what they deserved is secondary to the message of terror. On the battlefield, history is written by the victor. And if the Legion wins, then their atrocities will be treated as necessary casualties; if NCR wins, the Legion will likely be destroyed but also go on being demonized.

What I’m trying to say is that in the Legion’s eyes, justice is secondary to glory and the message of terror they want to send to NCR. And should they win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, they’ll be in charge of what is considered “justice” and what isn’t.

They can’t change profligates’ minds, but they can force them to accept it at the tip of a gladius. And the only real justice the Legion has, like I said, is “submit, and we will treat you well. Resist, and you will die.” I agree that Nipton wasn’t justice. But I’d argue that it wasn’t meant to be. It was meant to shock the NCR as an act of war; whose outcome is invariably written by the victor.

 

[Ayelander]

What I’m trying to say is that in the Legion’s eyes, justice is secondary to glory and the message of terror they want to send to NCR. And should they win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, they’ll be in charge of what is considered “justice” and what isn’t

I bet you'd justify the use of the Divide's nukes if they were fired by a Legionaire.

And the only real justice the Legion has, like I said, is “submit, and we will treat you well. Resist, and you will die.”

Unless you're too old to be conditioned, or a woman, that is. The Legion has no justice. They operate on a scale of brutality. Where whatever they deem a target guilty of is tripled and then executed on them. The founding ideals of their society all involve excessive violence and/or emotional detachment as an answer to any question.

 

[KingArthur]

I bet you'd justify the use of the Divide's nukes if they were fired by a Legionaire.

I'd justify the use of the Divide's nukes if they were used, period. Whether aimed at the Long 15 or Dry Wells, history repeats itself. War never changes, as is the tagline. The nukes are weapons of war. There's a war going on in the Mojave; and whoever gets bombed, it's just another act of warfare in a game full of them. Do I personally prefer diplomacy? Yes, absolutely. But there is a time for words and a time for sudden, unpredictable violence. The situation in the Mojave has passed the time for words.

Unless you're too old to be conditioned, or a woman, that is. The Legion has no justice. They operate on a scale of brutality. Where whatever they deem a target guilty of is tripled and then executed on them. The founding ideals of their society all involve excessive violence and/or emotional detachment as an answer to any question.

As I said above, there's a time for both of those things. The Legion excels where the Republic doesn't, and vice versa. As for your first point, I hate mentioning CC, but... cut content. We never see how the Legion acts during peacetime. I'm not above admitting when I'm at a loss; for all I know the Legion was meant to be just as brutal during peacetime. But something tells me there's more to Sallow's society than just what we see in the finished product.

 

[Ayelander]

I'd justify the use of the Divide's nukes if they were used, period. Whether aimed at the Long 15 or Dry Wells, history repeats itself. War never changes, as is the tagline. The nukes are weapons of war. There's a war going on in the Mojave; and whoever gets bombed, it's just another act of warfare in a game full of them. Do I personally prefer diplomacy? Yes, absolutely. But there is a time for words and a time for sudden, unpredictable violence. The situation in the Mojave has passed the time for words.

History only repeats itself if the men and women that make the decisions of the world choose to let it happen.

There is always the option to turn around and walk away, no matter the situation. Launching those nukes isn't an act of self-defense. It isn't even an preemptive strike or some kind of twisted message to demoralize the enemy. It is the willing decision to wipe out hundreds, potentially thousands of lives for the sake of taking lives.

Allowing yourself to just give in and rationalize whatever atrocity your team commits in the name of war is to lock yourself in a room and say you were forced in there for whatever reason.

I hate mentioning CC, but... cut content. We never see how the Legion acts during peacetime. I'm not above admitting when I'm at a loss; for all I know the Legion was meant to be just as brutal during peacetime. But something tells me there's more to Sallow's society than just what we see in the finished product.

Caesar is the ultimate authority in the Legion. Every law, rule and regulation the Legion follows comes straight from his mind and viewpoints. The man you meet in the fort is a crude, angry man prone to emotional outbursts. All of his experience with his Legion can be summarized down to

• Eat
• Sleep
• Conquer
• Repeat

Even with the cut content, there are one or two NPCs ingame that describe life in Arizona under the Legion. They speak very highly of the protection their caravans can afford, but they are still limited to a ridiculous number of laws and are mostly limited to trading in what territory the Legion holds. IIRC, the trader at the fort mentions he isn't allowed to sell about half the stuff he could if he worked his caravan anywhere else. I could just be talking out my ass with that one though. But from all the evidence we can work with, the Legion would change very little when all oposition is crushed under their boots. Same barbarians ruling over you, only without anyone to fight back.

 

[KingArthur]

History only repeats itself if the men and women that make the decisions of the world choose to let it happen.

There is always the option to turn around and walk away, no matter the situation. Launching those nukes isn't an act of self-defense. It isn't even an preemptive strike or some kind of twisted message to demoralize the enemy. It is the willing decision to wipe out hundreds, potentially thousands of lives for the sake of taking lives.

Allowing yourself to just give in and rationalize whatever atrocity your team commits in the name of war is to lock yourself in a room and say you were forced in there for whatever reason.

Perhaps you're right on that count. Though, whether or not human beings take that choice to walk away is a different matter. If Ulysses were bombing the Legion, I'd justify it the same, as I said. Because given the choice between peace and war, humans have chosen war time and time again, for whatever reason. I'm less on Ulysses' side because he's Legion, and more because in all likelihood lives are being extinguished on one side or the other; a couple thousand more is par for the course.

You're not talking out your ass; Dale does mention that the Legion won't let him sell restricted items like medicine. What I would want to see in terms of trade in Legion territory would be the re-emergence of craftsmen and the like. For example, in F2 the NCR uses adobe; why don't we see any architectural supply caravans in NV? (Triggered flashback to F4 settlement building) Or how about artwork, pottery? What I meant by seeing the Legion during peacetime is seeing their culture; seeing the results of this mishmash of tribes united under one flag.

 

[Beardy Unixer]

If only you'd met Kerghan at the Divide instead of Ulysses. That would have been the perfect end to the Fallout Trilogy.

 

[KingArthur]

If only you'd met Kerghan at the Divide instead of Ulysses. That would have been the perfect end to the Fallout Trilogy.

Honestly I just wanna see a necromancer in the Fallout series. I mean, the Psykers are a thing; how much harder is it to raise someone from the dead?

 

[Ayelander]

I'm less on Ulysses' side because he's Legion, and more because in all likelihood lives are being extinguished on one side or the other; a couple thousand more is par for the course.

I have to disagree here. Nobody tries to put out a fire by pouring gasoline over it. Launching nukes on either side or to both leads to destabilization. Every launch site opens up a can of shit for both sides.

What I meant by seeing the Legion during peacetime is seeing their culture; seeing the results of this mishmash of tribes united under one flag.

Doesn't that go against the integration and cultural replacement of a conquered people? Tribe identity is wiped out when absorbed by the Legion. It isn't a Vegas situation where the Families are tribals with a civilized coat of paint. (Though I'll be honest that really only applies to the Chairmen. White Gloves and those Gomorrah fucks are out of their minds. And then that just reminds me about how Nuka World's raider gangs are chinese knockoffs of the families, ugh.)

You're not talking out your ass; Dale does mention that the Legion won't let him sell restricted items like medicine. What I would want to see in terms of trade in Legion territory would be the re-emergence of craftsmen and the like. For example, in F2 the NCR uses adobe; why don't we see any architectural supply caravans in NV?

Agreed, but this all falls under the argument of CC and reused assets. Though, in the NCR's defence they mostly occupy existing buildings in NV. Sharecropper farms might be one of the only places they actually built from the ground up. And even then, they're working with the awful resource drought.

 

[Ayelander]

Honestly I just wanna see a necromancer in the Fallout series. I mean, the Psykers are a thing; how much harder is it to raise someone from the dead?

Congatulations. Never thought one of our own at NMA would be hired at Bethesda.

Don't Glowing ones already do this with their magic radiation?

 

[KingArthur]

Congatulations. Never thought one of our own at NMA would be hired at Bethesda.

Don't Glowing ones already do this with their magic radiation?

Yes; also it was a joke lmao

 

[KingArthur]

I have to disagree here. Nobody tries to put out a fire by pouring gasoline over it. Launching nukes on either side or to both leads to destabilization. Every launch site opens up a can of shit for both sides.

Perhaps; disabling the Long 15 does remove a supply route that Caesar could use for Frumentarii; you got me there.

Doesn't that go against the integration and cultural replacement of a conquered people? Tribe identity is wiped out when absorbed by the Legion. It isn't a Vegas situation where the Families are tribals with a civilized coat of paint. (Though I'll be honest that really only applies to the Chairmen. White Gloves and those Gomorrah fucks are out of their minds. And then that just reminds me about how Nuka World's raider gangs are chinese knockoffs of the families, ugh.)

I mean, in a way; except for the youngest in the Legion, the Legionaries and conquered peoples are still old enough to remember where they came from. It's kinda like Santeria, where it's an old religion hidden beneath Christian symbols. Tribal identity is likely still bubbling under the surface, hidden from Caesar's view. There are no doubts in my mind that people of the Legion still hold their tribal customs dear in some way, shape or form.

Agreed, but this all falls under the argument of CC and reused assets. Though, in the NCR's defence they mostly occupy existing buildings in NV. Sharecropper farms might be one of the only places they actually built from the ground up. And even then, they're working with the awful resource drought.

That's why I love the adobe buildings mod for NV. But mods aside, it definitely would've been cool to see the non-military side of both factions, NCR and Legion. I'd like to see how the NCR has developed since F2.

 

[Ayelander]

I mean, in a way; except for the youngest in the Legion, the Legionaries and conquered peoples are still old enough to remember where they came from. It's kinda like Santeria, where it's an old religion hidden beneath Christian symbols. Tribal identity is likely still bubbling under the surface, hidden from Caesar's view. There are no doubts in my mind that people of the Legion still hold their tribal customs dear in some way, shape or form.

I forget how long the Legion has been around, but I think they're about 2 generations in. The original tribals that were allowed to live and be converted to Legionaires are the last ones that'll remember their old ways. Especially considering that children are seperated from their parents and indoctrinated from birth. That, and considering how excessive the Legion is about shutting down loyalty to their past lives I doubt any Legionaire would let their secret remembrance be known to a soul in the Legion. Much less an unknown variable in the Courier. The most you hear about the tribals pre-assimilation is whatever advancements they brought to the Legion when conquered.

It would make the Legion/Caesar appear weak if their own men could freely break the laws of their society just to satisfy player curiosity.

 

[KingArthur]

It would make the Legion/Caesar appear weak if their own men could freely break the laws of their society just to satisfy player curiosity.

*Points gun at Legionary* I said, let's get back to my other questions.

But in seriousness, I suppose that's true. I just find it odd that Caesar wants to emulate Rome but can't remember that Rome was a cultural paradise and melting pot.

 

[Ayelander]

*Points gun at Legionary* I said, let's get back to my other questions.

But in seriousness, I suppose that's true. I just find it odd that Caesar wants to emulate Rome but can't remember that Rome was a cultural paradise and melting pot.

I suppose he viewed those as a weakness and made the choice to exclude them from his vison.

 

[KingArthur]

I suppose he viewed those as a weakness and made the choice to exclude them from his vison.

I mean, perhaps; but Caesar was a Follower. He would've been familiar with the whole idea of how each culture has something useful to contribute to society. If the Legion was nothing more than just a bunch of warriors, it wouldn't be sustainable. And I know your argument is that it isn't; and I'll concede that the Legion will likely drop off the face of the Earth at some point, dissolving ignominiously. I understand that. But that's also assuming they lose the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. I'm not so sure what the ending would turn out like for the Legion, in any situation. If they take the Dam then chances are someone is gonna be gunning for them; if not the NCR, then some other ambitious up-and coming wasteland society. But if they lose, I'll concede that the Legion will dissolve right then and there.

My reasoning is that Caesar's Cult of Mars is built upon the assumption that Edward Sallow is the demigod son of, well, Mars. But if the Legion loses the battle for the Dam twice? A lot of Legionaries are going to be confused and disenfranchised with this whole "conquering the Mojave" thing. And if Eddy flips out again and kills Lanius, who's going to lead the Legion army? Caesar himself is well versed in strategy (it was his reading of the historical Caesar's Commentarii that inspired him after all), but let's face it, he's old. And has a tumor that needs to be dealt with. Even in the best of all possible worlds (our mighty Caesar getting treatment for his debilitating injury of course), age and a bullet to the dome are still reasonable threats to his life. He needs a viable Octavian, and he needs to appoint one NOW. Should he appoint Lanius, the Legion will collapse just like Marcus says.

The very survival of the Legion depends on them winning the Second Battle of Hoover Dam; Hell, the Legion's campaigns of terror aren't just out of the blue. I'll admit it; a good reason for them stepping it up in terms of brutality is desperation. Any member of the Legion with a functioning brain (so, you know, everyone except fucking Walk-Away-Lanius) knows that the survival of this culture they've created hinges on a win this time.

The reason I went on this tangent is because I truly believe that Caesar wants a better society, a true neo-Rome in which all cultures can mix. But as of New Vegas he's almost forced to make the Legion a warrior society. Until the thorn in his side called the New California Republic is dealt with, or at least sent packing, Caesar knows that he can't rest; and neither can his Legionaries.

 

[Ayelander]

The reason I went on this tangent is because I truly believe that Caesar wants a better society, a true neo-Rome in which all cultures can mix. But as of New Vegas he's almost forced to make the Legion a warrior society. Until the thorn in his side called the New California Republic is dealt with, or at least sent packing, Caesar knows that he can't rest; and neither can his Legionaries.

I understand. I don't agree with any of his views, but I understand.

But the example of the ideal Legionnaire has been fairly set in stone. If Caesar can pull a victory (And assuming the Courier never interfered in the events of New Vegas, he does) It'll take a hell of a lot of time to break the mould and reform. On your earlier point of the crafts making a comeback, I appeciate that they threw a bone and gave the Legion the lion's share when it comes to producing new materials. their gladius machetes (The regular ones are made from lawnmower blades iirc), healing powder, and their own coin currency. I forget what the cap to coin rate is compared to NCR notes, but I'd wager it has less value considering the NCR's activities in the Strip. All I ever used it for ingame was to buy casino chips with.

Now, whether the ends justify the means, I'd come out and say, that to me, absolutley not. I believe humanity is capable of elevating itself beyond the warlike disposition we're so fond of, even if only possible after armageddon hits. We look at the people of post-war America and we project our own morals and viewpoints onto them. Whether you have me looking to the people of the Mojave and thinking them capable of stepping above their own nature, or the view that the end of the world justifies further sin and bloodshed. Humanity is worthy. So worthy of achieving greatness, even after they almost created their own extinction event. Maybe they'll colonize the moon, maybe they'll carry on the American way as if bombs never fell on their heads, perhaps they'll give in to the discord and anarchy afforded by the actions of dead men. Or maybe they'll look further to the past, for a chance to wipe the board clean and start fresh. I can't really say which future is best for humanity, I can only hope the right side wins in the end.

"War, War never changes. But men do, through the roads they walk."

 

[KingArthur]

I can't really say which future is best for humanity, I can only hope the right side wins in the end.

If I can be deadass honest with you, I feel the same way. I don't know if the Legion is the best hope for humanity, or if House is, or NCR or pure unbridled anarchy. I don't know. I just found myself inexplicably drawn to the Legion; and when I talked with Caesar, something about their ideals clicked. Something I really can't put to words made me realize that I could honestly see myself siding with them; if only because I dared to believe that the Legion is capable of conducting themselves less ruthlessly in peacetime.

When I think about it, the idea that the Legion could be better than what has come before is the main reason I sided with them; something about them told me that they weren't as irredeemably evil as everyone says. Maybe you're right. Maybe the Legionary mindset is set in stone at this point, and the Legion will simply collapse in on itself. But I suppose I've accepted that. At this point I see the holes in the Legion philosophy, I see its flaws; but instead of turning away like Ulysses, they made me more eager to help them. To guide them along with Caesar into the peaceful neo-Rome that he has planned; to make a better future, with the "bad guys".

Do the ends justify the means? I really don't know. I can't say. I don't agree with everything the Legion does, just like how I can't agree with everything a certain political party does. All I can do is back the side I think offers a future, like you. And for reasons I wish I could explain, I see something bright beneath the banner of the Bull. It might take decades. Might not happen until after Caesar or even the Courier's death. Might not happen at all. But so long as I believe it can happen, so long as I keep explaining why I feel the way I do, maybe I can get other people to consider the Legion as a viable future, if only for a moment.

I don't blame other people for hating them. I can't. But when Ulysses says that there's no future "in the Bear or the Bull", I take it as a challenge. A challenge to see the good in the Legion, and at the end of Lonesome Road convince him (and honestly myself) that it won't collapse. To those it conquered, I'm sure Rome didn't seem benevolent. But after a couple generations, people in as far flung areas as Germany and the Middle East considered themselves Roman. It became a point of pride. Hell, the German name Kaiser is a derivative of Caesar; yet the Germans fucking hated the Romans until (and probably a while after) they were conquered.

The conquerors are always seen as the villains. The NCR conquers with diplomacy, and as a result we can stomach their imperialism more easily. But even though the Legion conquers at the tip of a sword, I still want to, still have to believe that eventually it can resemble Rome at its height. A massive empire, ruled justly (or as justly as possible) by (relatively) qualified leaders; an empire in which, after a couple generations, even people as far as Chicago can consider themselves Legion.

Except for the profligates in the Capital Wasteland. They're all getting crucified.

EDIT: I've just realized that we haven't really heard from any NCR profligates on this issue. If any would like to contribute, I'd love to hear about their viewpoints.