I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]

[James Snowscoran]

So funny with the Legion apologists sperging here. "The Legion is not sexist!" Seriously? The institutionalized gender discrimination inherent in the Legion is the very definition of sexism.Then of course there's the cannibalism, slavery, acts of terror, wanton cruelty, rape, crucifixions, massacres, luddite attitude to technology and medicine, I could go on and on here really.

And yet, people still proclaim them humanity's best hope for reestablishing civilization!

 

[Surf Solar]

Where exactly was it said that the Legion supports cannibalism?

 

[quotetheraven90]

Where exactly was it said that the Legion supports cannibalism?

Yeah, I never got that one too. Sexist, slaver, hypocrite, ignorant and pillager, sure, but I never see any eating strange meat. Or having human flesh as their item.

 

[Ilosar]

The White Gloves explicitely state that they ally with the Legion because of their cannibal tendencies and... I believe that's pretty much it. The Wikia states Aurelius is one, but provides no proof. Maybe it's like the rapes, very hush-hush'ed but still present. But until there's serious proof, it's just allegations, it seems.

 

[GatheringCircle]

So funny with the Legion apologists sperging here. "The Legion is not sexist!" Seriously? The institutionalized gender discrimination inherent in the Legion is the very definition of sexism.Then of course there's the cannibalism, slavery, acts of terror, wanton cruelty, rape, crucifixions, massacres, luddite attitude to technology and medicine, I could go on and on here really.

And yet, people still proclaim them humanity's best hope for reestablishing civilization!

Yes hilarious I am an apologist for a video game faction. I've never heard that one before. What proof do you have of the "institutionalized gender discrimination inherent in the Legion"? I say the Legion is not sexist because they do worse things to the men in the Legion. Yah, sure they take women as slaves, but they just crucify the men. Then you say cannibalism. What is wrong with cannibalism in a post nuclear society? And the White Gloves are probably referring to individuals within the Legion that are cannibals not the entire Legion. Next, slavery, you say slavery is bad, but you do not explain why. Next "Acts of Terror" what do you define as an act of terror, something scary? The NCR does things that scare people as well, so you are going to have to be more specific. Then "Wanton Cruelty". Nothing in total war is wanton. Yes they rape women. They can't exactly take their captured females on dates and slowly build a relationship. They need children and they will do whatever it takes to get them. Crucifixions are just another, albeit, more visual way to execute somebody and is a very strong deterrent for any dissolutes that get funny ideas while in their territory. Again massacres are appropriate in total war. The Legion is doing what it takes to win, because to them the greatest injustice is for the Legion to fail, that does not make them evil. And they have a Luddite attitude to medicine and technology only because they do not have access to any serious caches of medicine or technology so Caesar does not want them to be dependent upon such devices.

From now on please provide evidence for your claims. It is very hard to argue when all you do is describe the Legion with single words that are negative in connotation.

 

[Four Suited Jack]

Just so you know, the definition of sexism is:

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities.

Therefore, the legion is sexist by definition.

Also, sexism can be directed at men too, something you seem to have overlooked.

Cannibalism is disgusting and counter-productive, how can humanity hope to succeed when we view our own species as a source of food?

Cannibalism is only justified as a last resort to stop starvation.

Slavery is bad because it is rarely justified, the vast majority of the time, both in real life and in Fallout, slavery is used for selfish reasons, it is immoral and makes one person a tool just for the sake of convenience of another person.

However, in some cases it can be justified, like the Chinese using prisoners to build the great wall of China.

Anyway, I have no issue with any of your other points.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Therefore, the legion is sexist by definition.

Also, sexism can be directed at men too, something you seem to have overlooked.

Agreed, most people here seem to think that sexism means hatred towards women. That is not what the Legion is about. Yes gender roles are sexist, but I was trying to tell people that the sexism is directed at both genders.

Cannibalism is disgusting and counter-productive, how can humanity hope to succeed when we view our own species as a source of food?

Cannibalism is only justified as a last resort to stop starvation.

Your opinions on what is disgusting are meaningless. Cannibalism is not a widespread phenomenon in the Legion and there is only one man in the entire game on the Legion side that might eat human flesh. I don't believe that it is ever confirmed that the strange meat in Aurelius's dwelling is human so we can only guess. Although even if the entire Legion ate human flesh, so long as it was from their enemies or from their dead, I would not see a problem with it. They would not see their comrades as food, only the people they are supposed to be fighting against, so it wouldn't be a problem for their society. You saying when cannibalism is justified also has no meaning.

Slavery is bad because it is rarely justified, the vast majority of the time, both in real life and in Fallout, slavery is used for selfish reasons, it is immoral and makes one person a tool just for the sake of convenience of another person.

Again, it does not matter when you think slavery is justified and then say it is bad when implemented anywhere else. The Legions use of slaves only occurs when they have captured females that would just be resource hogs that contribute nothing if they weren't made to be slaves. Saying something immoral is, also, one of the most opinionated things one could say, and does not make a faction inferior to the other when looking at them objectively.

 

[White Knight]

Furthermore the J.E. Sawyer quote only talks about the men in the forward camps not the whole of the Legion or any official policy.

And how would the men in the forward camps be different from the men in the rest of the legion, seeing as how most of them came from the east and the rest of the legion. I doubt male attitudes towards women is different on the front line and back home except maybe for the priestesses.

 

[GatheringCircle]

And how would the men in the forward camps be different from the men in the rest of the legion, seeing as how most of them came from the east and the rest of the legion. I doubt male attitudes towards women is different on the front line and back home except maybe for the priestesses.

The priestesses I speak of are the females in the Legion that where born or raised there. So yes the men's attitude is different towards the women that are part of the Legion as opposed to the slaves in the camp that are looked down upon. Probably, becuase of the stories they hear from people like Wulpes of places like Gomorrah.

 

[Ilosar]

Gender roles? Legion not sexist? Are you kidding me? Look at the women in the Fort; they are not only slaves, it's pretty clear their spirit is broken, as well as their legs. If you are a women and help the Legion, everybody is surprised, because it makes little sense why a women would help a culture that sees her as a baby factory at best. Gender roles do NOT mean that men have the power (which, in the Legion, is only said Legion, nothing else) and women serve them, that's pure sexism, Ceasar doesn't even attempt to deny it.

Also, the priestresses's task is only to indoctrinate children so that they serve the Legion. It's not a position of power at all, they just spew back what Mighty Ceasar says. Maybe they aren't treated like vermin akin to the women on the front, but it doesn't make the Legion's policy OK by any means. Well, except from the people who benefit from it, of course.

Again, it does not matter when you think slavery is justified and then say it is bad when implemented anywhere else. The Legions use of slaves only occurs when they have captured females that would just be resource hogs that contribute nothing if they weren't made to be slaves. Saying something immoral is, also, one of the most opinionated things one could say, and does not make a faction inferior to the other when looking at them objectively.

Oh, that's rich. Women are resource hogs now? Only if you allow them to be. Or if you are sexist. And it's not only women who are slaves, by the way, any male (and even children) who is deemed too ''weak'' to be a legionary is also a slave. So, say you are a very intelligent person, a brilliant artist or whatnot, but don't have a great constitution? Off to the quarries with you. Even objectively, this is retarded as hell; the artist could have made great works for the Legion, to strenghtren it's culture, which is vital to Ceasar's effort to erase tribal identities. The smart guy could have designed weapons, monuments, advanced tactics if he was into that. Yet all of that is wasted because they are arbitrarily perceived as ''weak''. For all his talk about posts in the legion being based on worth, Ceasar seems to favor slaves, blind loyalists, blood-crazed psychos and generally muscle far more than actual competence or intelligence.

Also, fuck yes slavery is immoral, to everybody but whoever profits from it. You are taking a human being and reduce him/her to an object at your service. And if that wasn't bad enough, the Legion seems to enjoy beating, raping and killing said slaves, so the argument that at least they are safe in the Legion holds no ground whatsoever.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Gender roles? Legion not sexist? Are you kidding me? Look at the women in the Fort; they are not only slaves, it's pretty clear their spirit is broken, as well as their legs. If you are a women and help the Legion, everybody is surprised, because it makes little sense why a women would help a culture that sees her as a baby factory at best. Gender roles do NOT mean that men have the power (which, in the Legion, is only said Legion, nothing else) and women serve them, that's pure sexism, Ceasar doesn't even attempt to deny it.

All the women you see in The Fort are slaves.

Yes the outside world is surprised when a woman who isn't a part of the Legion helps them. These same people know nothing of how the Legion works inside of their borders.

The only "baby factories" are their slaves not the women who are a part of the Legion. You have no evidence that the women, who are members of the Legion aka citizens, serve the men. And when does Caesar not deny their sexism, could you list the dialogue?

Oh, that's rich. Women are resource hogs now? Only if you allow them to be. Or if you are sexist. And it's not only women who are slaves, by the way, any male (and even children) who is deemed too ''weak'' to be a legionary is also a slave. So, say you are a very intelligent person, a brilliant artist or whatnot, but don't have a great constitution? Off to the quarries with you. Even objectively, this is retarded as hell; the artist could have made great works for the Legion, to strenghtren it's culture, which is vital to Ceasar's effort to erase tribal identities. The smart guy could have designed weapons, monuments, advanced tactics if he was into that. Yet all of that is wasted because they are arbitrarily perceived as ''weak''. For all his talk about posts in the legion being based on worth, Ceasar seems to favor slaves, blind loyalists, blood-crazed psychos and generally muscle far more than actual competence or intelligence.

Also, fuck yes slavery is immoral, to everybody but whoever profits from it. You are taking a human being and reduce him/her to an object at your service. And if that wasn't bad enough, the Legion seems to enjoy beating, raping and killing said slaves, so the argument that at least they are safe in the Legion holds no ground whatsoever.

The only thing that is rich is that you think I said women were resource hogs. I said nothing of the sort, and I think you knew that. I said captured women (the only reason I didn't say men as well is because they are all crucified) were resource hogs what do you suggest they do with them. Let them walk around in their territory free as a bird? Let's think. What do the NCR do with captured Legionaries? Oh, that's right! They put them in prison where they just eat food and lay around aka a resource hog. (I would love for you to show me the men and children slaves in the game btw.) You have no idea what artists are treated like in the Legion because all you see is THE FORT a military base, why would artists hang around there?

What you think is immoral is irrelevant to this argument. And where are you getting that they enjoy raping and beating slaves? The only thing I can think of is the fact that sometimes they say that the new slave girls are attractive. To you that must mean "God Damn I love raping women and then smacking them up a bit just to be evil, muahahhaha." I still stand in my opinion that women in the Legion (citizens) are some of the safest people in the fallout universe.

 

[Courier]

Yes the outside world is surprised when a woman who isn't a part of the Legion helps them. These same people know nothing of how the Legion works inside of their borders.

The only "baby factories" are their slaves not the women who are a part of the Legion. You have no evidence that the women, who are members of the Legion aka citizens, serve the men.

All the women in the Legion are slaves period. There are no female citizens in the Legion, that much is clear.

 

[White Knight]

Gender roles? Legion not sexist? Are you kidding me? Look at the women in the Fort; they are not only slaves, it's pretty clear their spirit is broken, as well as their legs. If you are a women and help the Legion, everybody is surprised, because it makes little sense why a women would help a culture that sees her as a baby factory at best. Gender roles do NOT mean that men have the power (which, in the Legion, is only said Legion, nothing else) and women serve them, that's pure sexism, Ceasar doesn't even attempt to deny it.

All the women you see in The Fort are slaves.

Yes the outside world is surprised when a woman who isn't a part of the Legion helps them. These same people know nothing of how the Legion works inside of their borders.

The only "baby factories" are their slaves not the women who are a part of the Legion. You have no evidence that the women, who are members of the Legion aka citizens, serve the men. And when does Caesar not deny their sexism, could you list the dialogue?

Oh, that's rich. Women are resource hogs now? Only if you allow them to be. Or if you are sexist. And it's not only women who are slaves, by the way, any male (and even children) who is deemed too ''weak'' to be a legionary is also a slave. So, say you are a very intelligent person, a brilliant artist or whatnot, but don't have a great constitution? Off to the quarries with you. Even objectively, this is retarded as hell; the artist could have made great works for the Legion, to strenghtren it's culture, which is vital to Ceasar's effort to erase tribal identities. The smart guy could have designed weapons, monuments, advanced tactics if he was into that. Yet all of that is wasted because they are arbitrarily perceived as ''weak''. For all his talk about posts in the legion being based on worth, Ceasar seems to favor slaves, blind loyalists, blood-crazed psychos and generally muscle far more than actual competence or intelligence.

Also, fuck yes slavery is immoral, to everybody but whoever profits from it. You are taking a human being and reduce him/her to an object at your service. And if that wasn't bad enough, the Legion seems to enjoy beating, raping and killing said slaves, so the argument that at least they are safe in the Legion holds no ground whatsoever.

The only thing that is rich is that you think I said women were resource hogs. I said nothing of the sort, and I think you knew that. I said captured women (the only reason I didn't say men as well is because they are all crucified) were resource hogs what do you suggest they do with them. Let them walk around in their territory free as a bird? Let's think. What do the NCR do with captured Legionaries? Oh, that's right! They put them in prison where they just eat food and lay around aka a resource hog. (I would love for you to show me the men and children slaves in the game btw.) You have no idea what artists are treated like in the Legion because all you see is THE FORT a military base, why would artists hang around there?

What you think is immoral is irrelevant to this argument. And where are you getting that they enjoy raping and beating slaves? The only thing I can think of is the fact that sometimes they say that the new slave girls are attractive. To you that must mean "God Damn I love raping women and then smacking them up a bit just to be evil, muahahhaha." I still stand in my opinion that women in the Legion (citizens) are some of the safest people in the fallout universe.

stop with the fucking citizenship idea. There are only legionaries and slaves, and priestesses. The priestesses are a small group of women who are chosen to ramble on about the god mars and to raise the children so they are as ignorant as the rest of the legion.

[spoiler:79362e0e5f]

This horde of cruel, yet highly disciplined slavers has spread across the southwest like an all-consuming flame. Founded by a fallen member of the Followers of the Apocalypse, Caesar's Legion is effectively an enormous, conscripted slave army. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and turns their young men into ruthless legionaries and women into breeding stock. They are well organized, moving and attacking in large packs, and deliberately commit atrocities to terrorize those who might dare oppose them.

The ideology of the society is based on the idea that, due to the weakness of humankind brought about by the atomic bombs, the chance now exists to unite the world under one flag. By using brutal and militaristic tactics, the Legion can take advantage of the weakness of the world to create one united society, and Caesar claims that the atomic bombs were sent by the god of war, Mars, for this purpose. This goal is often used by the Legion to justify their tactics and way of life.

The main goal of the Legion is to, ultimatly, unite humanity. They see democratic societies as tools the rich and powerful used to keep the majority of humanity in a state of constant irresponsibility. By keeping the people addicted to their consumerism, they could effectively drain them of their wealth, while keeping them in a state of being where they could not truly effect anything. This not only partially explains their disdain of alchohol and chemical stimulants, as well as pointless luxuries, it also explains why they see the majority of people as "animals", and are so quick to use violence against them. To them, "animals" are any creature that lives only to survive. Humanity, in their eyes, is defined by the ability to override that fear of death and blind will to survive. By doing so, humans can achieve goals for the betterment of all, and can work towards goals that require their own self-sacrifice.

Caesar greatly dislikes democratic societies, especially the NCR, because of their glorification of the wealthy, and not the worthy. In addition, Caesar greatly dislikes sectionalism and consumerism, because he believes they turn humans into "animals", or simple beings that live only for the sake of surviving. Because of the atomic bombs destroying the pre-war societies, Caesar believes that this is his opportunity to unite all humankind under one banner, ushering in an age where each human is judged by their merit, and given power accordingly. Because of this, the NCR and Caesar's Legion are on opposite ends of the spectrum of society. The NCR believe they can use the mercantilist nature of humankind to eventually bring peace to the wastes. While the greedy may rule now, when peace and stability come, the populace will eventually gain more and more power through reform, not unlike the middle class dominated societies of today. Caesar, however, sees that as a curse, not a blessing. In his mind, it will turn humans into simple animals stuck in a constant state of infancy, where they live only to consume and be preyed upon by the greedy that will inevitabely rule such a society. While the NCR uses their great wealth to fund research that improves the average life expectancy of their citizens, the Legion believes that their longer life comes at the cost of their humanity and purpose, and entices people to blindly try to extend their lives instead of truly living without fear of death hanging over them. This is why the Legion refuses to use medical sciences, except in rare cases. Because of their greatly different ideas of what true freedom is, the NCR and Legion will undoubtably quarrel with each other until one of them is defeated.

The Legion has a very specific code in regards to their people. The men are all expected to serve in the military, and the women are all expected to become wives and care takers. Each gender has it's specific roles, given to them at birth. The reason for this is that Caesar believes he must conquer the world to unite it and free it, and yet by doing so he would have to revert to the very way of life that his enemies live by. Instead of focusing on consumerism and exploitation of the poor, as he believes the NCR does, he uses the above tactic to turn the small number of people under his command into a dedicated army capable of actually standing up to the superior numbers of the NCR. Each person in the Legion has a specific duty given to them at birth, and they train their whole lives to fulfill it. While the NCR may greatly critisize this tactic, it has allowed Caesar to conquer over eighty tribes, each with superior numbers to his own, and to pose a threat to the once undefeatable NCR.

Caesar's military is comprised of all able-bodied men in his society, as well as any children they encounter in their conquests. They train these children, alongside their own, to become dedicated legionaires. The legionaires themselves are taught to fight to the death for Caesar, and are often very hard to stop because of this. Any adults they meet, however, are killed to prevent any sectionalism in the Legion, and their cultural identities are erased to prevent factions from being formed. The Legion's military is structured after the army of the Roman Empire. The largest unit of organization in Caesar's Legion is the "Cohort", numbering about 480 infantrymen. Cohorts are further divided into "Centuriae", which contrary to their name numbers about 80 men, and each Centuriae is divided into ten "tent groups" ("Contubernia"), making this the squad level of organization. Raiding parties are of this size (about eight men) and will be led by a Decanus (squad leader).

[/spoiler:79362e0e5f]

[spoiler:79362e0e5f][quoteThe Legion society is largely hierarchical. Anyone outside its ranks is considered to be Dissolute (lacking in morals), while those that are both outside of it and hostile (usually the NCR and its subjects) are called Profligates (slightly more dissolute). Freshly caught humans are called Captures and are considered the lowest of the low. Their only right is to be tested as a slave. If they do not meet the requirements, they are killed.

Slaves are one step above Captures and consist of captured humans unfit for combat duty as a Legionary. They are expected to adhere to the virtues of a slave (Honestas, Industria, Prudentia - honesty, industry, and prudence) and follow their master's orders without questions. They are given a new name and wear rags with a red X painted over the chest. During the Capture stage, slaves seem to be forced to wear slave collars. Later, when they have been "broken in" and transported deeper into Legion territory, the collars are removed as seen with the slaves at Fortification Hill. Children of slaves are taken from their parents after birth and placed in the care of priestesses, who raise them in keeping with Caesar's doctrine. Physically fit males are chosen to serve as Legionaries.

Legionaries are the main fighting force of the Legion and form the bulk of its society. Composed of capable men conscripted into service, Legionaries are expected to demonstrate the height of Roman values. Advancement in ranks is purely merit based - if a Legionary proves himself in combat, he will be promoted. If he doesn't, he'll be lucky to escape with his life[/quote][/spoiler:79362e0e5f].


The entire section about Legion society from the Vault
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesars_Legion
and not once is any type of citizenship mentioned. So please stop assuming they have citizenship

 

[Ilosar]

I had replies to 3/4 of these points before. Sigh... quick trip to the Vault and here we go.

Yes the outside world is surprised when a woman who isn't a part of the Legion helps them. These same people know nothing of how the Legion works inside of their borders.

I wasn't talking about the outside world. Ceasar, his aide (don't remember his name, Lucius or somesuch) and Vulpes all have comments about how they are surprised. A women also can't compete in the Arena (and for a good reason; they get their asses kicked by one in it. You go girl.).

The only "baby factories" are their slaves not the women who are a part of the Legion. You have no evidence that the women, who are members of the Legion aka citizens, serve the men.

Quoting http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar's_Legion
''The men are all expected to serve in the military, and the women are all expected to become wives and care takers''

Wives and care takers. As in, baby factories, not productive or meaningful members of society. There are no ''citizens'' in the Legion, all women serve men to a lesser (prestress) or greater (slave) extent, or in-between (care-taker).

Also,

All the women you see in The Legion are slaves.

Fixed. I have said it time and again, Obsidian made a big mistake only showing us a military base. We have no idea how people outside the Fort live. But given the information on the Wiki and the fact the Legion is extremely militaristic (hence their name), we have little reason to think it's much better elsewhere.

the only reason I didn't say men as well is because they are all crucified

They keep all children, and those not able-bodied are kept as slaves. Yes they do kill all male adults.

Oh, that's right! They put them in prison where they just eat food and lay around aka a resource hog.

Oh, so making them slaves is a favor then! Nobody is wasting resources, everybpdy is happy! Well, save the people who do back-breaking labor and the women being raped, not to mention those that are just outright killed, but they're just prisoners, who cares about them, eh?

I can play that game too. Nothing justifies putting someone into slavery. A bit of food, water and steel bars is not a 'resource hog''. In fact, according to the Powder Ganger fiasco, they put their prisoners to good use. Too bad giving them dynamite was a bad idea (then again, I am convinced this sad excuse of a faction existed only so that the player would have some human enemies to shoot at without consequences early game).

You have no idea what artists are treated like in the Legion because all you see is THE FORT a military base, why would artists hang around there?

Which is massive fault on the game's part. We simply don't know how life outside the Fort is, we just don't know. We pretty much have to judge it based on the Fort. And what we see is not very promising for the future of people under the Legion.

And where are you getting that they enjoy raping and beating slaves? The only thing I can think of is the fact that sometimes they say that the new slave girls are attractive. To you that must mean "God Damn I love raping women and then smacking them up a bit just to be evil, muahahhaha."

Talk to the Weathers in Cottonwood Cove. Rape is not simply alluded to here. Or talk to the ex-Legion male prostitute in Westside, he was almost killed just because one of the Centurion had taken a fancy to him (and with that we can add homophobia to the running tally. I mean damn) Or hang around the Fort as a women, see the comments some of the Legionaries make. And anyway, in a culture with ruthless men ruling over female slaves, is it any surprise rape happens? The beatings of slaves (or at least enjoying watching them suffer) is friggin obvious, where do you think the broken legs come from? Because yes, that is ''smacking them up a bit just to be evil, muahahhaha" as you say so well. And you still didn't address the killings in the Arena, which are obviously for pleasure since no ordinary slave can stand up to a trained soldier. You know, the killings of which there was so many the Legionaries became bored (more likely, they were afraid of the women who could kill several of them with her bare hands. Pussies).

I still stand in my opinion that women in the Legion (citizens) are some of the safest people in the fallout universe.

Selective much? All those slaves don't count or something? And since we have no friggin clue how ''citizens'' (if there is even such a thing) live, you can't make that statement. Indeed, as I pointed out, it's more likely they are silent and docile baby factories being semi-raped by the Legionaries they are assigned to, and since their status is lower, it's likely they can be hurt without anyone making much of a fuss. It's all speculation, but I feel the info in the game and wikia imply that ''safe'' is an extremely misleading term. As a women, I would feel much safer in a society where I can be with whoever I want, do whatever I want, land any post I want, and be allowed to carry any weapon that damn well pleases me and use it to blow the balls off assholes who want to enslave and rape me.

EDIT: White Knight and The Courier beat me to it. Point is, being a women in the Legion is shitty, period. You are viewed and treated as being inferior, whatever you do.

EDIT2 and just for the final nail in the coffin of the ''citizenship'' idea (and any chances of the Legion having civilian life anywhere, or not looking down upon women), straight from J.E. Sawyer;

''Remember that Caesar's Legion is basically a roving army that continually breaks down and absorbs tribes that it conquers. That can only go on for so long, and Legionaries who are indoctrinated from birth are even more loyal than adolescents who are integrated. Breeding new generations of Legionaries is vital for the Legion's continued existence.

Even though breeding is incredibly important in the Legion, there isn't any concept of family outside of the Legion's structure. All of the places where the player encounters the Legion are forward camps where direct military service is given the most weight and is of the most immediate importance. Because only males are involved in that service, they look down upon females even though it's incredibly short-sighted''.

Still from the Wikia.

 

[ramessesjones]

If all women in the Legion are slaves, so are all of the men (except Caesar himself), as I don't see much difference in being pressed in a military service against your will or being expected to birth children. The men in the Legion have no freedom and no real power either, its not like some Legion soldier can decide he wants to give up charging at NCR guns wearing football pads and carrying a knife and start a little cafe in Tucson instead. Life in the Legion is horrible for both men and women.

I think the discussion of citizen vs. slave, is more Legion born vs. outsider, as the Legion typically thinks very lowly of outsiders (killing the men) and while we are given very little information about women born into the Legion, it is mentioned Legion officers have "wives", which usually has a very different meaning than the word slave, and likely means they are treated better.

Wives and care takers. As in, baby factories, not productive or meaningful members of society.

Now this is a sexist comment. Women who birth and raise children are extremely important and productive members of society. The reason they are kept away from battle is because they are more important than the average cannon fodder Legion male.

I'd imagine these women also do things like craft and farm with so many of the men away at war or killed/crippled in battle, although nothing is mentioned about it one way or another.

 

[Ilosar]

Now this is a sexist comment. Women who birth and raise children are extremely important and productive members of society. The reason they are kept away from battle is because they are more important than the average cannon fodder Legion male.

I spoke a bit hastily. In a militaristic culture like the Legion, those who do such ''menial'' tasks are not viewed as meaningful, they are just doing what they are expected to do (see Sawyer's quote). That's what I meant. Of course women are crucial, they just aren't viewed as such by the Legion in general. From what we know anyway.

Also, you make an interesting point, what happens to the wounded? I imagine the attrition rate of the Legion to wounds is important, given that they forsake any advanced medical technology. But they still must have many cripples, especially if most of them are using machetes against guns. What becomes of them?

It's one of the reasons why I have a bit of an hard time seeing how the Legion can really be a credible threat to the NCR. Yes, their leadership ain't the best, yes their training is hasted (and only in some place, at Hoover Dam it's stated they run drills non-stop), but they still are a profesionnal army with guns and other advanced equipment (doesn't Fallout 2 mention a mechanized division to their army? And they have at least one Vertibird) against a slave army (albeit a very disciplined one) armed with mostly knives and spears and some guns/high-grade melee weapons for their elites. Then again, the Legion fights one enemy, while NCR fights the Brotherhood remnants, Powder Gangers, Fiends, Great Khans...

 

[GatheringCircle]

You also repeat your arguments, sigh........

I wasn't talking about the outside world. Ceasar, his aide (don't remember his name, Lucius or somesuch) and Vulpes all have comments about how they are surprised. A women also can't compete in the Arena (and for a good reason; they get their asses kicked by one in it. You go girl.).

I have to explain the citizen part first to respond to the first section, so.... The Legion does not arbitrarily pick some slaves they capture to indoctrinate their children aka the priestesses, for the slaves they capture would know nothing of their culture. Also, quite obviously not all the children they have are men, so what do you think they do with the daughters of the Legion. They make them into the priestesses. These priestesses are far behind the lines of the Legion, and they would be no more a slave than the men of the Legion. We know they are not the ones giving birth ergo they are not being raped, and e they are already indoctrinated into the Legion, and would listen to everything they are told to do just like the men, who also get beat or even killed for disobedience. So I chose to identify them as citizens because they are treated the same way as the men of the Legion. Do you know what they would do to a man who was just walking around Legion territory, and saw some women, then said " Can I help you raise your children?" They would laugh at him for being weird and not let him, just like they would do to a woman who wanted to fight. These gender roles exist, because they are simple guidelines for tribals, that allow for a high success for the faction that uses them. The NCR doesn't even deal with these tribes. If you aren't civilized they just ignore your entire tribe completely and let you die.

So, yes women can't compete in the arena. Just as men can't raise children. And yes they are surprised that an outsider woman is helping them because they rape or enslave them. That doesn't mean that they would be surprised if one of their priestesses showed sympathy to the Legion.

Quoting http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar's_Legion
''The men are all expected to serve in the military, and the women are all expected to become wives and care takers''

Wives and care takers. As in, baby factories, not productive or meaningful members of society. There are no ''citizens'' in the Legion, all women serve men to a lesser (prestress) or greater (slave) extent, or in-between (care-taker).

Someone already said that this comment is very sexist, but (and this comes up again) you are citing the wiki. (the article in question is sourced all of three times.) Everything in the wiki is not canon. That article spouts wild conjecture toward the Legion as much as everybody on this forum does.

Fixed. I have said it time and again, Obsidian made a big mistake only showing us a military base. We have no idea how people outside the Fort live. But given the information on the Wiki and the fact the Legion is extremely militaristic (hence their name), we have little reason to think it's much better elsewhere.

Again the wiki is not canon, but Nazi Germany was militaristic and they didn't go around raping their women or beating them without mercy. I do not believe that is a valid conclusion.

They keep all children, and those not able-bodied are kept as slaves. Yes they do kill all male adults.

I was aware they kept the children, but "those not able-bodied are kept as slaves"? First that makes no sense. Non-able bodied slaves are worthless, but also where in the game do you see any slaves like that?

Oh, so making them slaves is a favor then! Nobody is wasting resources, everybpdy is happy! Well, save the people who do back-breaking labor and the women being raped, not to mention those that are just outright killed, but they're just prisoners, who cares about them, eh?

Making the captured people slaves is not supposed to do them a favor. It is for the good of the Legion not the person who was just captured. Never said everybody was happy. The Legion would (as shown next quite logically) just kill them if they are not going to help in any way.

I can play that game too. Nothing justifies putting someone into slavery. A bit of food, water and steel bars is not a 'resource hog''. In fact, according to the Powder Ganger fiasco, they put their prisoners to good use. Too bad giving them dynamite was a bad idea (then again, I am convinced this sad excuse of a faction existed only so that the player would have some human enemies to shoot at without consequences early game).

For the first part, there are people in the NCR who could use that food more than the prisoners. If the NCR is going to let people sit in cells after breaking the law and get free food while just one person in their Republic goes hungry, it should show how misguided their priorities are.

For the second part, you show exactly why Caesar (and the actual Romans) do not keep prisoners.

Which is massive fault on the game's part. We simply don't know how life outside the Fort is, we just don't know. We pretty much have to judge it based on the Fort. And what we see is not very promising for the future of people under the Legion.

No, because we aren't told enough about them does not make your worst conclusion the correct one.

Talk to the Weathers in Cottonwood Cove. Rape is not simply alluded to here. Or talk to the ex-Legion male prostitute in Westside, he was almost killed just because one of the Centurion had taken a fancy to him (and with that we can add homophobia to the running tally. I mean damn) Or hang around the Fort as a women, see the comments some of the Legionaries make. And anyway, in a culture with ruthless men ruling over female slaves, is it any surprise rape happens? The beatings of slaves (or at least enjoying watching them suffer) is friggin obvious, where do you think the broken legs come from? Because yes, that is ''smacking them up a bit just to be evil, muahahhaha" as you say so well. And you still didn't address the killings in the Arena, which are obviously for pleasure since no ordinary slave can stand up to a trained soldier. You know, the killings of which there was so many the Legionaries became bored (more likely, they were afraid of the women who could kill several of them with her bare hands. Pussies).

I've never denied they rape slaves.

The comments you get are directed to a strange woman of a different culture than the Legion's. Service men in real life are just as rowdy towards the local women populace.

Just because they beat slaves doesn't mean they enjoy doing it. The slaves might not have been listening to orders, and that is a worthless slave anyway, so why not break her legs? She would be just as worthless .

Yes arena killings are for pleasure. Just like in real Roman culture, where slaves fought against heavily favored combatants, that were on the good side in the minds of the Romans watching. These arena "competitions" are massively important to a warrior culture. We have been shown this because the real Romans lasted for a ridiculously with these same practices. And if they didn't use slaves they would be killing their own men which would not be fun to watch and would serve no point as it would not be entertaining.

Selective much? All those slaves don't count or something? And since we have no friggin clue how ''citizens'' (if there is even such a thing) live, you can't make that statement. Indeed, as I pointed out, it's more likely they are silent and docile baby factories being semi-raped by the Legionaries they are assigned to, and since their status is lower, it's likely they can be hurt without anyone making much of a fuss. It's all speculation, but I feel the info in the game and wikia imply that ''safe'' is an extremely misleading term. As a women, I would feel much safer in a society where I can be with whoever I want, do whatever I want, land any post I want, and be allowed to carry any weapon that damn well pleases me and use it to blow the balls off assholes who want to enslave and rape me.

No the slaves are not indicative of how woman in Legion territory are treated, for get this. they are slaves. slaves are not treated like a normal member of society.

We already know the women in Legion territory are not the ones being raped , those are the slaves. The women who grew up in the Legion only raise the children.

The game info tells of the priestesses which are treated as equals to the men, and the wiki is not canon. And since the crime rate (stated in game) is next nothing in the Legion I would feel safer in Legion territory than in NCR, because there are less dangerous men around me. This is because we know that women in the Legion are not the ones giving birth, that would be the raped slaves, so no the women in the legion who are citizens or born there whatever we call them are not raped.

The J.E. sawyer quote actually contradicts in game info because they say officers have wives yet J.E. says there are none. He is beat by the game there. But also I was wondering if he was referring to Van Buren or F:NV in this quote. Even if it is the latter it can still be interpreted as the men looking down on the women in the forward camps not all of them.

Lastly in the next post you assume the Legion thinks child rearing is a menial task, but that again is conjecture not fact.

 

[Prozel]

I'd support Ceasars Legion except the game didn't motivate me to help them.

 

[RRBM]

I'd support Caesar's Legion, except...I don't like how they treat enemy combatants (among others). Crucifixions, beheadings, immolation -- I'm not such a big fan of.

But really, I just wish Obsidian had been given more time to work on the game, to work on the Legion. Flesh them out a bit more as a serious faction.

 

[Ilosar]

Must I be bored to do this.

I have to explain the citizen part first to respond to the first section, so.... The Legion does not arbitrarily pick some slaves they capture to indoctrinate their children aka the priestesses, for the slaves they capture would know nothing of their culture. Also, quite obviously not all the children they have are men, so what do you think they do with the daughters of the Legion. They make them into the priestesses. These priestesses are far behind the lines of the Legion, and they would be no more a slave than the men of the Legion. We know they are not the ones giving birth ergo they are not being raped, and e they are already indoctrinated into the Legion, and would listen to everything they are told to do just like the men, who also get beat or even killed for disobedience. So I chose to identify them as citizens because they are treated the same way as the men of the Legion. Do you know what they would do to a man who was just walking around Legion territory, and saw some women, then said " Can I help you raise your children?" They would laugh at him for being weird and not let him, just like they would do to a woman who wanted to fight. These gender roles exist, because they are simple guidelines for tribals, that allow for a high success for the faction that uses them. The NCR doesn't even deal with these tribes. If you aren't civilized they just ignore your entire tribe completely and let you die.

First, any argument about other people making conjunctures is null and void, because that's a wall of just that. Second, the fact the men get beaten or killed for disobedience does not in any justify doing it to women, quite the contrary. Third, tribals have been shown to succeed very well (not to the extent of the Legion, yes, but the Legion did not succeed primarily because of gender roles) when being a men or a woman makes little difference (see Arroyo, Khans or all three tribes in Zion for examples). Fourth, the NCR doesn't ''ignore you and let you die'', they will always attempt to bring you into the fold, where did you get that? May I remind you that the NCR started as little more than a village and that Arroyo is a State in the Republic, among others?

So, yes women can't compete in the arena. Just as men can't raise children.

And in other societies, that would be gender roles. Except that martial might is everything in the Legion; your status is literally determined by how much asses you can kick. Not being able to compete in the arena is a sign of lower status for women. Thus, sexism.

And yes they are surprised that an outsider woman is helping them because they rape or enslave them. That doesn't mean that they would be surprised if one of their priestesses showed sympathy to the Legion.

So you do admit they rape and enslave them. I fail to see the rest of your point; prestresses also aren't supposed to do what a female Courier does, namely conducting negotiations with potential allies of the Legion and killing it's enemies in droves. Frumentarii do the former, Legionaries do the latter. Both roles are forbidden to women.

Someone already said that this comment is very sexist

Which I already addressed as poor wording on my part, so I fail to see why you bring that up.

you are citing the wiki. (the article in question is sourced all of three times.) Everything in the wiki is not canon. That article spouts wild conjecture toward the Legion as much as everybody on this forum does.

Then I hereby summon Ausir, and you can take it up with him. I for one hope for much Actually's soon (for both sids of the argument, even). In the meantime, the Wiki is more detailed and credible than any speculations we have. At the very least it has sources. We do not.

Again the wiki is not canon, but Nazi Germany was militaristic and they didn't go around raping their women or beating them without mercy. I do not believe that is a valid conclusion.

First, Godwin's Law, there were better examples to use, and I won't bother explaining why citing it was a bad idea. Second, the Legion is far more militaristic than even those crazy sausage-eaters. Even them didn't promote based purely on how many people you killed all the way to the commander of the army (which is a very hit-and-miss policy, see Graham for proof).

I was aware they kept the children, but "those not able-bodied are kept as slaves"? First that makes no sense. Non-able bodied slaves are worthless, but also where in the game do you see any slaves like that?

You really like me to repeat myself, don't you. Quoting the Wiki again (because I consider it a valuable source) : ''Slaves are one step above Captures and consist of captured humans unfit for combat duty as a Legionary'' Notice the term ''humans''. Not women. Also, ''Caesar's military is composed of all able-bodied men in his society''. Second, I already said that we can't be sure of anything because we don't see enough of the Legion. Third, slaves don't have to be able-bodied. They're slaves. They do back-breaking labor, presumably until they die and are replaced (ass seen in the Fort). At best, they are used to do cleaning duties, or other ''menial'' tasks that do not require much strength.

It is for the good of the Legion not the person who was just captured

Surprising to see how ''the good of the Legion'' only benefits healthy males in power, no? You would think a desirable society took the interests of the maximum amounts of people into acount. I guess being able to kill people better does make you a more valuable person to them.

The Legion would (as shown next quite logically) just kill them if they are not going to help in any way.

Be my slave or die? This is the kind of society you defend?

For the first part, there are people in the NCR who could use that food more than the prisoners. If the NCR is going to let people sit in cells after breaking the law and get free food while just one person in their Republic goes hungry, it should show how misguided their priorities are.

Say what? Being a prisoner doesn't mean you need to be gutted like vermin or friggin crucified. Breaking the law doesn't have to be answered by such overwhelming violence, you can't have a stable society with no prisons for relatively minor crimes, it's absurd. If treating people humanly is ''misguided priorites'' for you I don't know what to say...

For the second part, you show exactly why Caesar (and the actual Romans) do not keep prisoners.

First, I already commented that the Powder Ganger situation seems contrived to me. Second, Romans didn't keep prisoners, eh? Where did the slaves, gladiators, and rowers come from then?

No, because we aren't told enough about them does not make your worst conclusion the correct one.

It's the only one we can make, for now, since it's all we see to the Legion. Must I yet again state how I would have liked them to show actual ''civilian'' life in the Legion, assuming that there is such a thing of course?

[/quote]I've never denied they rape slaves.

But you seem remarkably unfazed by this, seeing how rape is second only to murder as am offense you can make to a person, and even then.

Service men in real life are just as rowdy towards the local women populace.

As in, suggesting rape all the time, with damming evidence that they can easily follow up on their claims? Why don't you propose the idea to an actual servicemen and see how far he boots your sorry ass? Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's sure as hell not as omnipresent as with the Legionaries.

Just because they beat slaves doesn't mean they enjoy doing it. The slaves might not have been listening to orders, and that is a worthless slave anyway, so why not break her legs? She would be just as worthless .

Good lord I don't want people like you in any position of autority, ever. Because you arbitrarily declare a person ''worthless'' it's OK to beat them to within an inch of their lives and break their legs? You serious there?

Yes arena killings are for pleasure. Just like in real Roman culture, where slaves fought against heavily favored combatants, that were on the good side in the minds of the Romans watching.

So it's all justified then, OK, kill them, who cares, they're only slaves after all. But stop everything once a women starts caving our faces in, it's not fun anymore. Christ, this is the mentality of a schoolyard bully, not of a faction supposed to ''unite the wastes under a solid order''. And I seriously doubt Rome lasted long because of gladiatorial battles, actual Legionaries rarely fought in them because it's like gutting a pig to them, it doesn't make for good training. Just tires them out and wastes ''ressources'', if you will.

No the slaves are not indicative of how woman in Legion territory are treated, for get this. they are slaves. slaves are not treated like a normal member of society.

We already know the women in Legion territory are not the ones being raped , those are the slaves. The women who grew up in the Legion only raise the children.

And again with the assumption that there are women ''citizens'', despite it not being mentioned anywhere. Nothing tells us they don't grab little girls and have the prestresses tell them that to be slaves for all their lives is their destiny. And not all women in Legion territory are prestresses, only some.

The game info tells of the priestesses which are treated as equals to the men, and the wiki is not canon.

FFS you are beginning to seriously annoy me. When you are not allowed to fight in a warrior culture, you are not equal to the one who can fight. Period. prestresses only exist because his men have better things to do than telling little legionaries how awesome a swearing, hypocrite old man is. They are in no position of power, they spew out digedted hogwash, and we already covered that up.

This is because we know that women in the Legion are not the ones giving birth, that would be the raped slaves, so no the women in the legion who are citizens or born there whatever we call them are not raped

Again with the conjunctures. What source do you have that proves all women aren't slaves? Because if the Wiki is non-canon as you say, then all we know of Legion women are beaten, broken souls carrying packs and serving food. And one prisoner that's more badass than all the cosplaying barbarians combined, save MAYBE for Lanius.

The J.E. sawyer quote actually contradicts in game info because they say officers have wives yet J.E. says there are none. He is beat by the game there. But also I was wondering if he was referring to Van Buren or F:NV in this quote. Even if it is the latter it can still be interpreted as the men looking down on the women in the forward camps not all of them.

Now you can't be serious. Sawyer almost created the Legion, from Avellone's idea. If there is one autority on them, it's him, not a random Legion character written by who knows whom. Also, follow the link to that quote. It answers a question about Ranger Stella, as in, the women who kicks Legion asses in New Vegas's Arena. As in, that quote is all about the New Vegas Legion.

Lastly in the next post you assume the Legion thinks child rearing is a menial task, but that again is conjecture not fact.

Child rearing? I assume you mean giving birth. And when the women giving birth are (as you yourself stated) slaves being probably raped, and the baby is destined to become nothing more than a cog in the Legion's machine, giving birth to an individual can't be seen as a glorious task. Also, see Sawyer's quote again. And again. And tell yourself that there is no higher autority on the Legion. What he says is Word of God, as canon as canon can be.