Impressions thread for positive impressions
- Thread starter midshipman01
- Start date
Critter said:
Times have changed for sure. No doubts about that. And changes are not inherentely (I love that word) a bad thing after all. It keeps things fresh. But even in the so heavily mass market oriented branches like the music or movie industrie you still have a lot of room for succesfull "exceptions", band, actors, singers, directors that can succesfully produce own visions offside the massmarket and with great quality and earnings. They made in the past and today movies/music for the masses as well. What happens today though is that they make a lot ... a hell lot of "copy cats" of music and the 124521s sequel to some movie instead of using own new fresh ideas. The interesting thing was when I talked with a good friend the last time I had the opportunity again to see him and he mentioned to me (hes a real music buff and just returned from a concert) that the reason why some titles today become so popular is cause they use many times the beat and style of very old popular music and when I thought about it, he has a point. What was awesome 50,40 or 30 years back gets used again now and "new" generations like it a lot and dont even know that its just a reuse of some sort. Its not everywhere the case, but happens many times today. Who can count the times when a very succesfull song was just a rehash of some Mc Jackson, Elvis or Beach boys song ... or anything else.
But to return to games again. The thing what I dont believe is just ... that some companies must really think about their costumers as beeing mentaly retarded or something when I think about what they really offer them. Certain Bethesda developers seriously have been worried Fallout 3 might have to much to read for console gamers or references to god might be to much or all that kind of handholding like a visible percentage of how succeful your spech will be ... wtf?!. Is this a RPG now or not? Do they really fear the big mass of their costumers are some group of unedcuated ADHD FPS junkies that cant even concentrate on some game for 5 min. I am sure that you can give the usual console or PC gamer more credit then just that. Even the newest generation of 15 or 16 years old gamers. And for the case it would NOT be that way ... and the usual gamer crowd is really that dum and its about time already that companies start to do somewhat against it already and educate people.
I think what really at the moment is happing is some very strange temporary fashion. it happend that some known games like Halo, Diablo and a few more that I cant remember now happend to really get extremly huge succes with their very simple gameplay and now everyone decided to jump on this bandwagon for the big money, even smaller companies. Though what they forget is that such games can be only succesfull with the right "marketing". If you dont suggest people that this is "the bigest shitz you can get around!" and that your life will be COMPLETELY boring without this game no one will notice the game. Bethesda happens to make pretty mediocre titles since Morrowind but they happen to have some of the best marketing and commercials around!
To give some example. Games that tried to catch for a biger mass market without the right marketing were not succesfull. Like Commandos from Eidos, or the Fallout setting with Tactics and even worse Pos.
Commandos was up to the 3th game of the series a very srict strategy game with a birds view gameplay.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYi-WmeqBvs[/youtube]
The game was very hard! and demanded extremly tactical thinking similar to chess. And People loved it for exactly that reason.
With the 4th game Commandos Strike Force all this was changed heavily for a "action oriented First Person" gameplay similar to CoD or Mohaa.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN6DF8m9eB8[/youtube]
Just compare the gameplay between this. It are 2 totally different kinds of games! And as well extremly simplified in gameplay. When you had in the previous games up to 8-9 TOTALLY different characters in your team and most missions needed all of them work together you have in the Commandos FPS only 3 characters from which you can choose to play with.
This all feels so much similar to Fallout 3 that its seriously frightening ... I think its unneeded to mention that the game was extremly heavily criticised by the community and not close to the same succes of the past games. But since the game was no success the chances to see a 5th game, true to the first one happen ... are almost not existend.
It really sucks to see some of your most beloved franchises all either go the same route or totally down ...
Critter
It Wandered In From the Wastes
First off Crni, great post 
Right. Can't argue that.
Right. It was bound to happen, no way around it. Get enough fat old bald guys with business degrees together and something awful that will somehow make money is bound to happen.
Reminds me of something I was reading not long ago about Kevin Smith working on scripts for a Superman movie. When it got to the execs, they went over a scene he had written with Superman on the "Isle of Solitude" or something like that. The execs asked if there was a fight scene. Well... no, that would defeat the idea of the "Solitude" part. So they asked if perhaps Superman could fight a Polar Bear on the way up or something. Why? Because apparently audiences can't sit through a space longer than 10 minutes and not be bored unless they see some action. Kevin Smith eventually refused to work at all on the title.
I'm not a grammar nazi, but the term is consumer, not costumer
I giggled when I read that, hehe.
Anyways...
Why educate people though? If it sells, who cares?
To quote one of my favorite musicians (Pedro the Lion)
"If it isn't making dollars then it isn't making cents."
People will buy crap. People will continue buying crap and they're ok with it. Why? I have no idea. Try convincing some hardcore 'gangsta' that real musical qualities exist in something like The Doors and they'll call you stupid. It's the way it works and it irritates the shit out of me.
Yup, with a good pitch and smart people, you could sell sand to an Arab.
Again, it's a world based on projected sales. I really think Valve has the right idea being privately owned. They can do what they want, when they want and take the time to release quality titles. I don't necessarily care for many of them, but I know lots of people who do and I know why they do. Same thing for Blizzard. You've got too many people who still don't have a clue. How many blow ups and stupid decisions have we seen in the gaming industry? You'd think more people would get a clue, again, like Valve and Blizz. But it seems a lot of publishers want to craft something that fits in, that's "good enough" for now, will be forgotten in a year and hold someone over until they can buy their next title coming in a year.
Again, why make one title that can be replayed 12,000 times when you can release 12,000 titles that can be replayed once?
Really, it makes perfect sense, sadly.
Yeah, another series that went down the drain. Damn do I have fond memories of those and remember going on and on and on about them with buddies of mine through the years.
Hell, I just picked up Baldur's Gate II again. Damn is that game awesome.
But, that fits in with what I've been babbling about. Investors don't want to sink cash into something that's a niche, or might not see big numbers, or might not sell at all. They want their money back. Again, nothing really wrong with that, but it's gotten ridiculous.
Well, it's probably better it's dead then, heh. I'm still kinda/sorta/not waiting to see what Jagged Alliance 3 eventually turns out to be. I'm also hoping this round of Baldur's Gate III rumors are bogus as well. Stay dead, please. Right now it's not a gaming world where those have the chance of living up to their potential.
Hell, KOTOR 2 is an awesome game in my opinion but damn does it just feel so damn incomplete as you play it. Why? Because it is! It got so rushed and so in a hurry to see the door and make fast cash back on it that it's a subpar (well, kinda) product. Especially knowing what it could have been...
It's not that developers (for the most part) have gotten worse, it's just a mass-market mentality.
Yup. I'm still waiting to see what the next King's Quest (if it were ever made, heh) would turn out to be. I bet THAT would be hilarious.
Crni Vuk said:
Right. Can't argue that.
Crni Vuk said:
Right. It was bound to happen, no way around it. Get enough fat old bald guys with business degrees together and something awful that will somehow make money is bound to happen.
Reminds me of something I was reading not long ago about Kevin Smith working on scripts for a Superman movie. When it got to the execs, they went over a scene he had written with Superman on the "Isle of Solitude" or something like that. The execs asked if there was a fight scene. Well... no, that would defeat the idea of the "Solitude" part. So they asked if perhaps Superman could fight a Polar Bear on the way up or something. Why? Because apparently audiences can't sit through a space longer than 10 minutes and not be bored unless they see some action. Kevin Smith eventually refused to work at all on the title.
Crni Vuk said:
I'm not a grammar nazi, but the term is consumer, not costumer
I giggled when I read that, hehe.
Anyways...
Why educate people though? If it sells, who cares?
To quote one of my favorite musicians (Pedro the Lion)
"If it isn't making dollars then it isn't making cents."
People will buy crap. People will continue buying crap and they're ok with it. Why? I have no idea. Try convincing some hardcore 'gangsta' that real musical qualities exist in something like The Doors and they'll call you stupid. It's the way it works and it irritates the shit out of me.
Crni Vuk said:
Yup, with a good pitch and smart people, you could sell sand to an Arab.
Again, it's a world based on projected sales. I really think Valve has the right idea being privately owned. They can do what they want, when they want and take the time to release quality titles. I don't necessarily care for many of them, but I know lots of people who do and I know why they do. Same thing for Blizzard. You've got too many people who still don't have a clue. How many blow ups and stupid decisions have we seen in the gaming industry? You'd think more people would get a clue, again, like Valve and Blizz. But it seems a lot of publishers want to craft something that fits in, that's "good enough" for now, will be forgotten in a year and hold someone over until they can buy their next title coming in a year.
Again, why make one title that can be replayed 12,000 times when you can release 12,000 titles that can be replayed once?
Really, it makes perfect sense, sadly.
Crni Vuk said:
Yeah, another series that went down the drain. Damn do I have fond memories of those and remember going on and on and on about them with buddies of mine through the years.
Hell, I just picked up Baldur's Gate II again. Damn is that game awesome.
But, that fits in with what I've been babbling about. Investors don't want to sink cash into something that's a niche, or might not see big numbers, or might not sell at all. They want their money back. Again, nothing really wrong with that, but it's gotten ridiculous.
Crni Vuk said:
Well, it's probably better it's dead then, heh. I'm still kinda/sorta/not waiting to see what Jagged Alliance 3 eventually turns out to be. I'm also hoping this round of Baldur's Gate III rumors are bogus as well. Stay dead, please. Right now it's not a gaming world where those have the chance of living up to their potential.
Hell, KOTOR 2 is an awesome game in my opinion but damn does it just feel so damn incomplete as you play it. Why? Because it is! It got so rushed and so in a hurry to see the door and make fast cash back on it that it's a subpar (well, kinda) product. Especially knowing what it could have been...
It's not that developers (for the most part) have gotten worse, it's just a mass-market mentality.
Crni Vuk said:
Yup. I'm still waiting to see what the next King's Quest (if it were ever made, heh) would turn out to be. I bet THAT would be hilarious.
Trithne
Still Mildly Glowing
you think wrongly.
This game is awesome
I have played Fallout 3 for... Around 60 hours now. Everything works great, atmosphere, humor, environment and all the creatures. It's just perfect. The quests are deep and I think nearly all of them can be solved without killing anything. The original Fallout's quests were a lot like "Go there, kill that and get that", these are much better. The both radio and atmospheric soundtrack are great, I love them to bits. The main quest was very good also, Tranquility lane and Liberty Prime were sheer awesomeness. The VATS works great too, I love shooting ferals with it point blank. All the skills are balanced, no more useless skills like "Gambling". Every skill is useful.
It's honestly hard for me to think of anything bad to say about this game, everything else would be nitpicking.
This could easily be the best game I've ever played.
I have played Fallout 3 for... Around 60 hours now. Everything works great, atmosphere, humor, environment and all the creatures. It's just perfect. The quests are deep and I think nearly all of them can be solved without killing anything. The original Fallout's quests were a lot like "Go there, kill that and get that", these are much better. The both radio and atmospheric soundtrack are great, I love them to bits. The main quest was very good also, Tranquility lane and Liberty Prime were sheer awesomeness. The VATS works great too, I love shooting ferals with it point blank. All the skills are balanced, no more useless skills like "Gambling". Every skill is useful.
It's honestly hard for me to think of anything bad to say about this game, everything else would be nitpicking.
This could easily be the best game I've ever played.
Minorkos said:
I'm happy that you're happy about the most superficial of elements - graphics.
Let me conclusively prove that you're clueless.
Fallout:
Vault 13:
1. Calm the rebel faction.
Quest can only be completed by talking to Theresa and convincing her that the OVerseer is right. Killing them is not desirable, as it gives no experience.
Plus, a consequence is, if you don't complete it within the first 100 days, the rebel faction deserts the vault.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
1. Destroy the Mutant leader.
Assassinate the Master:
1. Diplomat: Infiltrate the base and convince the Master that his plan is a failure.
2. Infiltrator: Sneak into the Cathedral, activate the nuke and get out.
3. Rambo: Slaughter everything and everyone.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
3. Destroy the source of the Mutants.
1. Diplomat: Infiltrate the base and hack the self-destruct sequence.
2. Infiltrator: Sneak into Mariposa, hack/blow up the self destruct console.
3. Rambo: Slaughter everything and everyone.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
4. Find the Water Chip.
Largely depends on the way you play. The above three paths apply, plus you have to locate it on your own with some detective work and even there you have the three Diplomat/Infiltrator/Rambo options to choose from: talk your way through Harry, sneak by him or kill him outright.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
5. Find the Water Thief.
Guard duty, you can either convince the thief to turn himself in for 1000 XP or kill him for half the amount.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
Shady Sands
1. Rescue Tandi from the Raiders.
A seemingly simple quest with multiple solutions:
Diplomat:
1. Appear to be Garl's father and convince him to release Tandi.
2. Threaten him to release the girl.
3. Buy Tandi out.
Rambo:
1. Fight Garl mano-a-mano
2. Slaughter everyone.
Infiltrator:
1. Sneak in, unlock her cell dor, sneak out with Tandi.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
2. Stop the Radscorpions.
A simple quest.
All chars:
1. Slaughter all scorpions.
2. Blow up the cave entrance.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
Junktown
1. Rescue Sinthia.
A hostage situation with a crazy raider.
Diplomat:
1. Talk him out of the situation and make him leave Junktown.
Rambo:
1. Slaughter the rat bastard (Sinthia hates you afterwards)
Infiltrator:
1. Sneak up and knock him out.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
2. Stop Gizmo
A complex quest.
Diplomat:
1. Record Gizmo, take the evidence to Killian then off him according to law.
Rambo:
1. Slaughter Gizmo and Izo. You are exiled from Junktown, though.
Infiltrator:
1. Plant the bug on Gizmo, then proceed according to the Diplomat path.
Visionary:
1. Screw Killian over and assassinate him and/or leave town, so that Junktown prospers under Gizmo's careful guidance.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
3. Bust the Skulz gang.
A seemingly simple quest, ending up in the removal of undesirables from Junktown.
Diplomat:
1. Pose as a gang wannabe, steal Neal's urn then rat the gang out to the guards and dispose of them.
Rambo:
1. Slaughter every gang member. You're exiled from Junktown afterwards.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
The Hub:
1. Dispose of Jain.
Hired hit.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
2. Dispose of merchant.
Another hired hit.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
3. Find the missing caravans.
A major quest which is focused on acquiring information, not shooting stuff up and sifting through the ashes.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
4. Steal necklace from the Merchants.
Thieves' Circle initiation quest. Requires high infiltrating skills and a bit of luck.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
Necropolis:
1. Destroy the Super Mutants at the Watershed.
Straightforward.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
2. Fix the Necropolis water pump.
A quest requiring a bit of thought and exploration, definitely not a trigger finger (although it helps).
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
Brotherhood
1. Become an Initiate.
You need to ge to the Glow and bring back the ancient tape. But it requires a bit of thought and planning.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
2. Rescue Initiate from the Hub.
Slaughter his captors!
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
Boneyard
1. Fix hydroponics plant.
A simple FedEx quest. Complicated by Deathclaws, of course.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
2. Adytum.
An interesting quest that has a bit of approaches:
1. Get weapons for the Blades and duke it out with the Regulators, optionally with support from armed Adytowners (planting weapons on them in advance)
2. Get the tape to Jon Zimmerman and duke it out alone.
3. Assassinate the Regulators one-by-one.
4. Kill the Blades off on Regulator behalf.
End sum:
13 complex quest and 6 simple. Your argument is therefore invalid.
Let's examine Fallout 3:
1. Escape!
Kill your way out of Vault 101.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes
2. Following in His Footsteps
Get info about your dad from Megaton.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
3. Galaxy News Radio
Get to GNR, slaughter supermutants on the way.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
4. Scientific Pursuits
Find Dad's holotapes to get to Vault 112
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
5. Tranquility Lane
Liberate Dad from Braun.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
6. The Waters of Life
Slaughter Supermutants in the Memorial, then press buttons. Then watch the Enclave arrive, kill some Enclave, watch your dad die, then escape through the sewers killing more people on the way.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
7. Picking up the Trail
Find a computer in the Citadel and activate it.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
8. Rescue from Paradise
Get some kids out of Paradise Falls.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
9. Finding the Garden of Eden
Get into Vault 87 and get the GECK. Slaughter everything that moves on the way.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
10. The American Dream
Meet the President, slaughter Enclave troopers on the way.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
11. Take it Back!
Slaughter your way to the Jefferson Memorial.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
So, we have eight simple quests and three a bit complex ones. And that's just the main quest. Compare the last two to how the finales in Fallout and Fallout 2 played out, with at least two (Diplomat/Rambo) approaches available.
Now, the rest of the quest.
1. Big Trouble in Big Town
Save two humans, killing supermutants. Then come back and kill some more supermutants.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
2. The Superhuman Gambit
Find and kill/scare off either of the "heroes".
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
3. The Wasteland Survival Guide
An interesting quest but with a damn annoying questgiver.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
4. Those!
Find ants, kill them, do what the scientist says.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes. (simplicity)
5. The Nuka-Cola Challenge
Get 30 NC Quantums.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
6. Head of State
Go to Memorial, slaughter slavers. Or the slaves.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
7. The Replicated Man
Track the android down. Interesting quest.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
8. Blood Ties
An interesting quest structure.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
9. Oasis
Go into a dungeon, kill stuff, use the heart, do anything with no consequence to your actions.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
10. The Power of the Atom
Destroy or save Megaton. No consequences.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
11. Tenpenny Tower
Interesting quest with unforeseen consequences.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
12. Strictly Business
Enslave four people.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
13. You Gotta Shoot 'Em in the Head
Get keys or the T-51b.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
14. Stealing Independence
Find the Declaration.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
15. Trouble on the Homefront
Fix the situation in Vault 101.
"Go there, kill that and get that": No.
16. Agatha's Song
Get the Soil Stradivarius from Vault 92.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
17. Reilly's Rangers
Slaughter mutants. A lot of them. Bring a fission battery with yourself too.
"Go there, kill that and get that": Yes.
12 simple and 5 complex (?) quests. Interestingly, the proportions are inverted, compared to Fallout 1.
You don't know what good plotlines look like.
Nope. Barter and Medicine come to mind.
Then enjoy your low standards.
Doesn't sound like you've been playing much.
You need some preparation (Rad-X and rope), while in Fo3 it's only "go in, shoot muties, grab a holodisk".
The Glow is kind of indicative of Fallout's unforgiving attitude compared to Fallout 3's. The rope is basically a classic P&P GM assfucking you, but the Rad-X is a typical example of putting the burden on the player and expecting him to think. If you approach it with the approach that works for all quests in Fallout 3 (namely: follow the quest marker until you get there) you die of radiation poisoning.
The Glow itself is a pretty diverse location - there's no old location in Fallout that needs so much effort (as in non-shooting-things effort) to loot. But that's not quest related.
The Glow itself is a pretty diverse location - there's no old location in Fallout that needs so much effort (as in non-shooting-things effort) to loot. But that's not quest related.
Shattering Fast
First time out of the vault
I greatly enjoyed playing Fallout 3, though I see no reason to back up this statement with any sort of logical argument. The problem, as I see it, is that some people appreciate this game based on the same factors that are widely loathed by the old fanbase.
OP: You shouldn't have bothered with the wall of text. So long as you know you enjoyed the game, you don't have to convince others why.
OP: You shouldn't have bothered with the wall of text. So long as you know you enjoyed the game, you don't have to convince others why.
I perfectly agree with you, SF. No one is obliged to back up why they like this game, I mean what the hell, if you like it, you like it, and nobody will have any call to be bothered by that.
Though why you registered and posted to tell us that is beyond me.
Though why you registered and posted to tell us that is beyond me.
Shattering Fast
First time out of the vault
Hopefully I have more to say in the long run than the 5 posts I've accumulated thus far.Brother None said:
Public, don't be obnoxious.
Minorkos said:
One or two changes in quest analyzation will not shift the proportions towards FO3 having more "thoughtful" quests. In fact, Grizzly's analysis was pretty forgiving and equally strict to both games. Also, if you notice, a lot of FO3 quests only have one resolution, as opposed to FO1.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but what I'm seeing is that you have provided zero argument on the statement "The quests are deep and I think nearly all of them can be solved without killing anything. The original Fallout's quests were a lot like "Go there, kill that and get that", these are much better." At the same time Grizzly has posted an elaborate argument on why he thinks that statement is wrong.
TheRatKing
Vault Dweller
Nice one Grizzly, very impressive. I never thought that bringing RadX with you was such a hard thing to remember. IIRC, you were told numerous times that the Glow was extremely radioactive. In my first play through, I brought like 10 RadXs and 10 RadAways.
No big thing. Its alright hehCritter said:...
I'm not a grammar nazi, but the term is consumer, not costumer
I giggled when I read that, hehe.
Anyways...
I dont know it really frankly. But I think its cause they just "should" do it. For diverstiy.Critter said:
Not every game should be that way. Not even every RPG should be done in ways that you need a big brain or patience to play them. But I think its just sad when things evolve in a direction were MONEY becomes your MOST IMPORTANT thing in the buisness instead of making a prodcut, or vision you would be proud about.
Its just the direction I really dont like. The further they go with game develoment the more you see all the diversity ... vanish. And that can not be a good thing. In the worst case it might lead to that people dont even buy anymore almost any kind of games (besides shooters and games with real fast pased gameplay). Such things happend in the past already sometimes where everyone thought gaming would not have any future anymore. Gaming buisness starts to become a monoculture. And that is neither for the companies nor for the gamer a really heathly thing.
You came here on this forum and expeceted anything different?Minorkos said:
Though that would be like going to a community that is fans of the Mc Claren Team and asking them "why dont you like Enzo Ferrarie?" and then complain about that they might not like it.
To say that. The Glow is just a example of the difference between the usual Fallout 1 and Fallout 3 quests, how they work and what they demand from the Player. Take Megaton for example. You can blow up the town, but what is the effect. Moira survives so you still can get the quests, for some strange reasons she decides to leave the town just right BEFORE you blow it up. And as one might think now, well ok I loost my "apartment" with Megaton. No. For the case you blow it up you can get one in Tenn Penny tower ...
Was it not somewhat mentioned earlier even in interviews somewhere that when you blow up Megaton you cant do any quests in that town? What quest. Moira which was more or less the bigest quest giver in Megaton survives and even after YOU blown up the town still offers you the opportunity to finish her wasteland guide.
I dont know whats biased when one just is saying that Fallout 1s quest were a lot less forgiving to the player.
In my eyes even Fallout 3 provides the player a hell lot of "training wheels" so he CANT fail really (think about invisible NPCs here for example ... or that stimpacks can heal now cripled limbs)