And in my opinion we shouldn't complain about:
"Mass murder. A ruthless dictator. Slavery. Institutionalized sexism. Rape being tolerated across the board."
because it's post-War world? It's like complaining for slavery in ancient era. Master, Caesar and even Enclave to save "society" must have to take the most difficult and immoral option because only that can lead to sucess.
No.
The Master was utterly misguided. His mutants were not a viable solution at all, for reasons very clear.
The Enclave were a bunch of genocide-mongering loonies. Nothing good ever came out of them save for sweet power armor.
Ceasar is trying to ''save'' society from... what exactly? Violence? War? Because that,s exactly what he brings to the Mojave. Oh, after his conquests the place is a bit safer because Legionaries patrol the roads when they're not busy raping slavegirls (or each other, mayhaps), but it's a big, big stretch to think of a violent, slaving, totalitarian state as the wasteland's ''solution''.
Look at NCR, there were sucessfull only when Vault Dweller, then BoS, then Chosen One helped them. After that? Huge corruption, internal struggle (beetwen towns, factions, and even beetwen some people in NCR Army), lack of any organization, and a lot of more. Only problems for Caeser came from outside (because people otuside Legion didn't tolerate their policy and ways for bringing civilization.)
That's just flat-out false. the Vault Dweller saved Tandi, but after that NCR grew and faced its challenges by itself. The Chosen One only ensured she stayed in office by helping defuse the Vault 15 situation. Beating the Brotherhood, beating the Khans, beating the Legion the first time? They did that by themselves.
Also, your claims about internal struggle comes from where? Nowhere does it says NCR has civil wars of any sort. NCR has survived and prospered for more than a century, that's a better record than... well any faction in the Fallout continuity, really. They're not perfect by any means, but they always find a way.
Also, the fact that the Legion captures people for use as slaves, raids caravans, burns random towns to the ground, and generally act as monumental assholes is maybe a
little more important than people ''not tolerating their policies''. Just saying.
This may will be true, but Caesar in the game, misguided or not, seems to think it will work (although obviously he's not going bother trying to integrate democracy). Generally, I think the best character type to role play on the Legion storyline, is misguided pseudo-academic, who is willing to make the wild leap of faith that his dubious theory will work out, as the only other choice is a complete sociopath murder, which tends to be boring character type. I think Caesar himself thinks the Legion in current form is basically terrible, so I don't think the player should be expected to feel otherwise.
I think main thing he wants to integrate from NCR are the people themselves, people that are already fairly civilized unlike the tribes that make up most the current Legion, in hopes it balances things out some. If you look at the ending for Goodsprings or few the Primm endings, he mostly leaves the people there alone, I think these types of people, that are peaceful and productive when mostly left to themselves are what he feels will make the Legion stronger and NCR has a lot of people like this.
Possibly, but that just means his empire gets bigger. It doesn't really change anything. And after the Legion no longer has enemies to fight, then what? All those slave soldiers are gonna do what, exactly? Police the roads, what a glorious task. Even Lanius is at a complete loss of what the Legion would do if it ever managed to crush NCR.
How do we know they don't have that many people? NCR has hundreds of thousands of people and the Legion is able to be threat to NCR despite their poor equipment because of their ability attack with numbers. The Legion seem like it could be very large.
Yeah, but most of that population are civilians. I doubt the NCR army numbers in the hundreds of thousands. The Legion having access to a lot of manpower is a given, but that much seems a pretty big strech, especially because 1) they only have men taking up arms 2) said territories are hardly as civilized and secure as NCR's, given they were conquered but a decade before 3) loss rate in the Legion must be extreme, given the fondness for melee weapons in a gun-crazy setting and the lack of medical supplies beyond healing powder. Imagine trying to clear a Deathclaw nest with nothing but machetes. Good luck.
@SnalSlav : Sarcasm is a natural part of my vocabulary. I can,t turn it off even if I wanted. Sorry
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I agree that the Legion is not represented, but I think your example is not adequate. Ceasar himself depicts Lanius as some sort of beast, only wen you talk to him do you realize he is not so. It's less lies and more that his brutality is sort-of cultivated. The scary-ass armor does not help matters at all.
As for the faction being slandered, well it's kinda hard to deny that they are murderous, sexist slavers, whatever their reasons.
About Ceasar; I completely recognize he has ideas. Thing is, I don,t care and it doesn't matter. Look, I'll give you an historical example. Pol Pot really, genuinly believed that city life made people corrupt and evil. Thus, he enacted his ''solution'' and forced most of the country out of the cities. Of course, this proved incredibly disastrous, leading to famine, millions of dead, crippled economy, the works. All this time, he continued to believe he was doing good things, mind you. I could give you a few other examples, such as Mao Zedong, but you get the point. It doesn't matter. Because actions speak far louder than words. If Ceasar's ideas were just stuff thrown around a beer a friday night, I'd listen. Disagree, but listen. Here, they are used to justify slavery, mass murder, institutionalized sexism, all kind of horrible things I oppose completely. As such, no matter how interesting the points may be or how much he believes in it, I don't give a flying fuck, because the en result is a slave state used to fuel his need for conquest and ego. Hence the ''psycopathic dunce'' monicker.
Also, being a soldier is NOT being a slaver who cares nothing about human life. Speak to an actual servicemen like talk and he'll boot your ass to kingdom come. And no, the psycopaths are NOT the best. The two best outfits of NCR? Rangers and First Recon, who are a match for anybody in the Legion stats and lore-wise save Lanius himself (who stats-wise gets beaten by 3 Veteran Rangers). Speak to them, and they are very far from being as psychotic as every Legion soldier. Hell, First Recon is entirely composed of sympathetic NPCs. The Misfits are one unit, and a bit of training makes them a force to be reckoned with. NCR has a bit of a training and discipline problem among the rank-and-file, but the answer is not to rurn your soldiers into bloodthirsty psychos.
Furthermore, you are contradicting yourself about Ulysses. You say he's a ''good'' legionary... but that his evil act, launching the warhead at NCR, was not caused by his allegiance to the Legion? He's not really a Legionary anymore. You're also forgetting he gladly sent the White Legs to raze New Canaan to the ground on Ceasar's whim. Only something completely out of Ceasar's control (said Legs adopting Ulysses's braids) made him desert, and IIRC Frumentarii agents are then sent against him.
About Ceasar and his soldiers, I'm not asking him to change their very natures (leave such musings to the Nameless One), just to forbid practices such as rape and excessive violence towards slaves. If the Legion can enforce bans towards high-tech toys and vital medicine, ass well as instill a discipline solid enough practices such as Decimatio are accepted, it can very well enforce bans towards such meaningless, base violence. But it won't, because Ceasar doesn't care one bit.
Again, you're not seeing the issue. Ok, fine, women are better as baby factories following him. Thing is, your standing and importance in the Legion is strictly dictated by martial strenght. Save for Ceasar who gets a free pass, everybody in position of power got there because they can kick more asses than the guy below them, culminating in Graham and Lanius being Legates. If you are not allowed to fight, to display said martial strength, you have no power over Legion society. As such, women are explicitely forbidden from being as important socially and politically as men. This is far, far beyond gender separation (which is bad enough), it's just honest to goodness sexism. How is men ''interpret'' such commandes should matter little, since each Legionary is but a cog in the machine. Doesn't matter what they think, they're here to fight and die. If Big C says to jump, they jump, if he says to charge those guys wielding guns, they do, and if he said to treat women properly or else, they would treat women properly.
Also, NCR has no such gender separation and still boasts a massive population. So again, it seems his ''solution'' is simply not necessary, and in fact creates additionnal problems. Historically, nations never needed such policies to enjoy a numerous population. In fact, the Legion's model is very much based on the elite of the Spartan society, and they weren,t exactly continent-covering numerous. It just seems like an utter waste of potential for little real gains, and adds to the Legion's stupid evil credentials.
I very much realize this is not a black and white issue. But as I see it, NCR is a relatively light grey, while the Legion is full-on black with supplementary information showing us a small hint of grey
