Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

[Languorous_Maiar]

As a last shot, I will tell you this about the massacre of Bitterspring, so far the strongest argument against NCR: Great Khans. They are traditionally NCR's greatest enemies. Since the very founding days of the Republic. Dont forget that the most popular president of NCR, Tandi, was kidnapped by them and hold in captivity for a long time. At the time of FNV, Great Khans also the greatest opposition to NCR expansion into Mojave outside of Legion. It's by no way an excuse for the massacre, but to put things in perspective.

What about Bullhead City and those tribes?

Legion civilians? I see none of that type. Oh you said on a document. On paper. In short, aint been done yet.

If developer say so, it is...

But some question. If in game some town have population of 10 people, it mean there are no others townfolks? It doesn't make any sense man.

 

[Ilosar]

Why are people so obsessed with the "balance" between the different gendered roles under the Legion? I've never said it's balanced. But there is very clearly a trend among people questioning the Legion to project the concept of military service as a noble endeavor (for which one is rewarded, no less) onto legionnaires when it's never presented in that way. They are slave soldiers. Service is not voluntary, they can't retire, there are no parades and pats on the back for them. They aren't Roman patrician officers who are going to retire to a Tuscan estate when they turn 50.

The only power that male legionaries have is to serve Caesar well enough to be promoted to a position of more responsibility. Nothing really comes with that additional responsibility other than increased scrutiny and better equipment (to match the increased danger).

Most of my commentary on this topic has been to highlight the following:

* Caesar's Legion is subdivided (by Caesar) based on gendered/sexed roles. These subdivisions are sexist (inherently), but they are neither misogynistic nor misandric.
* Legionaries under Caesar are not like Roman patrician officers. They are not part of a larger society that celebrates and rewards military service with things like conference of honorific titles, triumphs, etc. All legionaries are slave soldiers, period.
* The opinions of individual legionaries are not the opinions of Caesar. These individuals may make misogynistic comments, but those comments did not originate with Caesar, nor is there any reason to believe that he shares them, given his willingness to employ a female courier.

If you want to weigh the individual horror of rape and forced child-bearing against forced military service for life, knock yourself out. It's two terrible ways to go through life.

I honestly believe Sawyer didn't think this one through. When you have a society where martial might is everything, those who wield it are inhently better off than those who don't. In this case, men can do whatever they want to women, and have to capacity to enforce their will. Women have to deal with it, because rebellion = rape, or death. Claiming that they are both equally miserable seems far-fetched. How many Legionaries have been raped by their female counterparts again? How many females, pre-Courier because the PC is special , have been awarded positions of leadership (Legate, head of the Preatorians, head of the Frumentarii)? Sure, the males aren't exactly living in a dream, but at least they can defend themselves and be promoted to important positions. Priestresses is all females can be other than servants, and we know so little about those we can't say anything.

Also, his line about ''well he's not responsible for their opinions'' is BS. When you have such a tight control over your society as Ceasar has, what your soldiers do is your fault. When the only women a man sees in his life are obeying slaves with which he can do almost anything he wants, that's not exactly breeding ground for a healthy respect for said women, now is it? And it's not just mysogynistic comments. It's pretty strongly implied rape is a frequent occurence. The legion is definitely a mysoginistic society, in practice if not in design.

And remember.
Legion achieved everything without player help (like NCR with Vault Dweller and Chosen One) or high technology factions like BoS or Vault City, ofc. in a shorter time.

But you wouldn't have a Fallout game without the PC, so that's hardly a fair criticism. I would also question how a roving army (Sawyer's words) can keep such a perfect peace in 4 separate States without becoming incredibly over-extended, but this post is already too long. Point is, the Legion also needs the PC to win. With no Courier, it's most probable Benny would have claimed the Mojave, not Ceasar.

As for Bitter Springs, I think the key difference is that pretty much every single NCR NPC who participated in it feels like shit about the event. It's barely spoken off, and in shame when it is. When the Legion does something similar (Nipton), they boast about it and try to find lame justifications (oh, but they had whores and the mayor was greedy, of course they deserved to be massacred!!). NCR may do horrible things too, but they don't make a policy of it at least. Neither does House.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Legion needs PC to survive, not to be created.

NCR needed help of Vault Dweller to be created, and then help of Chosen One, to be that NCR, which we knows from FNV.

You see difference?

I mean, I prefer to have legion in four states, than anarchists tribes, which would hurt local society more. In so short time, in so conditions, second NCR never could be created.

As for Bitter Springs, it can be justified, but what about Bullhead City, again?

 

[Tagaziel]

I honestly believe Sawyer didn't think this one through. When you have a society where martial might is everything, those who wield it are inhently better off than those who don't. In this case, men can do whatever they want to women, and have to capacity to enforce their will. Women have to deal with it, because rebellion = rape, or death. Claiming that they are both equally miserable seems far-fetched. How many Legionaries have been raped by their female counterparts again? How many females, pre-Courier because the PC is special , have been awarded positions of leadership (Legate, head of the Preatorians, head of the Frumentarii)? Sure, the males aren't exactly living in a dream, but at least they can defend themselves and be promoted to important positions. Priestresses is all females can be other than servants, and we know so little about those we can't say anything.

Also, his line about ''well he's not responsible for their opinions'' is BS. When you have such a tight control over your society as Ceasar has, what your soldiers do is your fault. When the only women a man sees in his life are obeying slaves with which he can do almost anything he wants, that's not exactly breeding ground for a healthy respect for said women, now is it? And it's not just mysogynistic comments. It's pretty strongly implied rape is a frequent occurence. The legion is definitely a mysoginistic society, in practice if not in design.

THE LEGION IS NOT A SOCIETY.

The Legion is a slave army under the command of one (1) master: Caesar. None of the slaves in the legion are citizens. They are all disposable tools fit only for their purpose, nothing more.

It's no more a misogynist organization than it is misandric. Males only live to fight and die for Caesar. They receive no benefits for their service and inevitably end up dead on the battlefield or crucified for failure. Not one legionary retires, they all die.

This isn't a better fate than being a servant and birthing children for the rest of your life.

 

[Ilosar]

Legion needs PC to survive, not to be created.

NCR needed help of Vault Dweller to be created, and then help of Chosen One, to be that NCR, which we knows from FNV.

You see difference?

I see what you mean, but it doesn't matter much to me. The NCR was simply around before the Legion and had more games centered on them. I don't know, it's a gameplay thing, Fallout wouldn't be Fallout if the entire wasteland didn't have problems only the PC can solve. It doesn't sway me in a faction debate.

I mean, I prefer to have legion in four states, than anarchists tribes, which would hurt local society more.

I'm not so sure. Better to live your own life than have an army of slaves slaughter your men and draft the rest in some guy's power trip.

As for Bitter Springs, it can be justified, but what about Bullhead City, again?

See, it's not even a question of justification. There is very, very little than can justify mass slaughter like that. NCR doesn't even try to justify, to give reasons; most likely, it was a horrible mistake, and it's treated as such by everybody who participated. The Legion are those who try to weakly justify their atrocities. As for Bullhead, we know next to nothing. Perhaps it was Kimball being a bloodthirsty maniac. Maybe the tribes were Fiends-like and very violent. But it doesn't seem like any sort of policy for NCR.

THE LEGION IS NOT A SOCIETY.

So wait, it has a leader, a social structure, a clear hierarchy, it rules over 4 state's worth of kinda-sorta-civilians-but-not-really, yet it's not a society? K then.

The Legion is a slave army under the command of one (1) master: Caesar. None of the slaves in the legion are citizens. They are all disposable tools fit only for their purpose, nothing more.

It's no more a misogynist organization than it is misandric. Males only live to fight and die for Caesar. They receive no benefits for their service and inevitably end up dead on the battlefield or crucified for failure. Not one legionary retires, they all die.

This isn't a better fate than being a servant and birthing children for the rest of your life.

I got that the first time, thanks, no need to parrot Sawyer. You failed to address any of my points there. It may be Sawyer's interpretation, but it's not mine, based on what we see in-game. Given that men have far more power than women and are definitely not afraid to use it, the Legion is mysoginistic. Whenever Ceasar designed or intended it this way or not doesn't change that.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

But it doesn't seem like any sort of policy for NCR.

You remember how they tried to annex Vault City?

I'm not so sure. Better to live your own life than have an army of slaves slaughter your men and draft the rest in some guy's power trip.

Sawyer explained it. Four States isn't Mojave Wasteland. (war zone)

the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival)

Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).

So being under Legion and still living same (even better) but more safer life isn't something worth it?

It may be Sawyer's interpretation, but it's not mine, based on what we see in-game.

But there is a lot of stuff "outside" game and you must accept it, you can't just base only on game if lore have other sources, also he was one of those, who created game, who could knows better than him? You? Pretty egocentric approach.

 

[Ilosar]

But it doesn't seem like any sort of policy for NCR.

You remember how they tried to annex Vault City?

I'm not so sure. Better to live your own life than have an army of slaves slaughter your men and draft the rest in some guy's power trip.

Sawyer explained it. Four States isn't Mojave Wasteland. (war zone)

the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival)

Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).

So being under Legion and still living same (even better) but more safer life isn't something worth it?

It may be Sawyer's interpretation, but it's not mine, based on what we see in-game.

But there is a lot of stuff "outside" game and you must accept it, you can't just base only on game if lore have other sources, also he was one of those, who created game, who could knows better than him? You? Pretty egocentric approach.

Vault City was hardly an openly hostile takeover. They wanted to annex the place, for its technology and industry. They ultimately suceeded without blood being spilt, as far as we know. It's a far cry from slaughtering a village and enslaving the survivors, that's for sure. The place was run by true assholes anyhow.

One could say it's worth it in order to obtain more safety, some could say it ain't. The point of the whole thing is to make your own judgement, after all. I maintain that NCR, House or independance with an intelligent Courier would be better than life under the Legion for the Mojave, is all.

I don't presume to kow Sawyer's setting better than him. His explanations, however, didn't convince me at all. The Legion is mysoginistic, it's an even worse place for a women to be than a man, and women have even less power then the male slaves. It may not have been designed that way, but I feel that it indeed is mysoginistic. It's not the biggest problem with the faction, but it's there.

 

[Makenshi]

THE LEGION IS NOT A SOCIETY.

So wait, it has a leader, a social structure, a clear hierarchy, it rules over 4 state's worth of kinda-sorta-civilians-but-not-really, yet it's not a society? K then.

Watch the movie The Postman, in which it seems the Courier and the Legion were inspired to some extent. That may help you understand his point. If you don't want, here's a spoiler about it:

[spoiler:9cc402fa40]The movie is set in a war devastated USA, big cities etc are gone, small settlements thrive on their own. There are no governments whatsoever, and the one force around is the Holsonist Army.

They come from time to time, take tribute and recruits, and go away. They have their own camp/base/HQ, where they do whatever they see fit in their daily routine (like training, as all armies do), and do not govern these settlements, nor interact with them in any way other than the previosly described (take what they want, give nothing in return).

Thus, the Holsonist are not a society. In fact, society will only thrive, in the area at which they are uncontested, if and when they are either removed or decide to effectively rule (even if in a... "North Korean way").[/spoiler:9cc402fa40]

The same goes for the Legion in Fallout: New Vegas. There's a leader, like all armies, but Caesar doesn't rule over the settlements in Arizona+other states, he just ensures no armed activity exist besides the Legion (thus no bandits, and safe routes for commerce, but it's not his goal; the absolution over the territory is his goal).

There's a hierarchy INSIDE the Legion, but it doesn't extend to the civil society (remember, the Legion has slave, but nothing was said of the settlements in it's territory; probable there are slaves in them, too, but they are slaves of the "free" people - farmers, merchants, etc -, not of the Legion).

There's no clear social structure; there's only the Legion's structure.

In short, it's a roaming army, not a society.

Life in this region may be more stable, safer than in a lawless wasteland full of mutants and raiders, but it is not a desirable alternative to what NCR tries to be: a rebirth of pre-war society.

 

[Ilosar]

Ya, but the Legion does govern and keep the peace (and they must have lots of men doing it besides; policing 4 states to be as safe as they claim to be in Fallout's world would take thousands of people), so it's not the same thing. The main bulk of the Legion are the slaves that travel with big C, yet some must remain to keep an hold over their conquests, unless the writers want to make us believe the mere existence of the Legion somewhere magically negates all the numerous dangers of the Wasteland in places they won. It's not a society in the common sense, and surely it's different from NCR and such, but that doesn't mean it's not a society. I don't even know what the point is anyhow, it's still a mysoginistic roving army if it's not a mysoginistic society.

 

[laclongquan]

The peace before the storm, sure.

Legion is based on Roman ideas and like Roman idea it will come to a similar end, probabbly even harder. Mostly due to the heavy yoke of slavery and oppressive society.

It's more accurate to compare Legion with Sparta of old, with a large ratio of slaves, large standing army to suppress slave revolts, and oppress heavily on all section, especially females. Sound familiar?

Thus the conflict between Legion and NCR is like the conflict between Sparta and Athens, with the inevitable win of Athens. With two front: external enemies, and internal revolts, how can they win?

And the Vault City annexation attempt of Fallout 2 is NOT policy. It's a tactic designed by Bishop of New Reno and the Vice President of NCR WITHOUT the knowledge of Tandi. Bishop supply some forward bases, some men, and local guides, while the VP of NCR provide men with military training (who can deal with the automated defense of VC) and political pressure. Their goal is creating enough pressures so the pro-NCR faction in VC gain momentum and force through an annexation vote . More quickly and more advantagous to the both of them, because the annex deal would be successful sooner or later, as witnessed by Fallout lore.

The common people may complain about the high taxes of NCR but that is because they are living in Mojave, a war zone. For common people in NCR, what's right with them? No bandit: the gangs are hunted down and reduced to pathetic number of Vipers and Jackals (Great Khans dont count, see my post last page). Frequent visit of merchants and cattle drives (Big Circle etc). Their population grow to the level that they need to migrate to frontier land to farm (Sgt Kilborn, NCR sharecropper farms etc...). No slavery at all. Harsh crime control. Compare to the usual tribal lives it sound like a small slice of heaven.

 

[Tagaziel]

So wait, it has a leader, a social structure, a clear hierarchy, it rules over 4 state's worth of kinda-sorta-civilians-but-not-really, yet it's not a society? K then.

It's not a society, it's an army. It has no social structure, as there is no society within. Every single slave in the Legion is a cog in the machine, with no rights, no privileges, and only one purpose: to serve Caesar.

I got that the first time, thanks, no need to parrot Sawyer. You failed to address any of my points there. It may be Sawyer's interpretation, but it's not mine, based on what we see in-game. Given that men have far more power than women and are definitely not afraid to use it, the Legion is mysoginistic. Whenever Ceasar designed or intended it this way or not doesn't change that.

What power do the men have? None. Their only purpose is to fight and die for Caesar. None of them have other duties.

This is what you see in game. A massive slave army fanatically loyal to Caesar, the only free person in the Legion and the only one who has any real power. Everyone else, even the finest Centurions, can and will be disposed of by execution or crucifixion if they fail.

You're looking at it from a purely male perspective, convinced that being forced to fight until you die either disemboweled by shrapnel on the battlefield or slowly choking on the cross is somehow more glorious and indicative of more power than being forced to bear children, cook food, and carry loads for your entire life.

It's mind boggling that you consider slave soldiers with no rights as having a better life than slave women.

 

[laclongquan]

Slave women: your life and death is in other's hands.

Slave soldier: you have weapon in your hands. Anyone want you dead, they damn well better be prepared for a fight.

That single point will favor his argument, I should think.

On that same topic: Rights are something not people give you, which is all a female slave can expect, but something you must fight for, which she cant. but a soldier can fight for that. That is the second point.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Rather

Slave women: your life and death is in Caesar's hands

Slave soldier: your life and death is in Caesar's hands

Look at Joshua Graham example, one of founders, second in all Legion, has nothing to say when he failed to do something.

 

[Ilosar]

Or rather

Slave women: your life and death is in Caesar's hands, and in the hands of whichever male happens to be nearby. To speak nothing of rape, of course.

Slave soldier: your life and death is in Caesar's hands. Anyone else who wanna mess with you can come get some.

It's a very, very shitty life for both sexes of course, but the women just have it even worse

 

[Tagaziel]

Slave women: your life and death is in other's hands.

Slave soldier: you have weapon in your hands. Anyone want you dead, they damn well better be prepared for a fight.

That single point will favor his argument, I should think.

On that same topic: Rights are something not people give you, which is all a female slave can expect, but something you must fight for, which she cant. but a soldier can fight for that. That is the second point.

Uh, what? What rights the slave legionary fights for? His own? No, he doesn't have any rights, nor the ability to claim them. The slightest doubt or reluctance on his part results in punishment or outright execution.

Or rather

Slave women: your life and death is in Caesar's hands, and in the hands of whichever male happens to be nearby. To speak nothing of rape, of course.

Slave soldier: your life and death is in Caesar's hands. Anyone else who wanna mess with you can come get some.

It's a very, very shitty life for both sexes of course, but the women just have it even worse

You're consistently ignoring the fact that legionaries have no other purpose in life than combat. They don't develop their culture, they don't have any real lives, they are automatons brainwashed to follow orders and kill people.

It really boggles the mind how you consider fleshy automata meant to kill and only kill as having a somehow better existence than women. The latter at least aren't used for cannon fodder.

What boggles the mind is the conviction that being forced to fight is a lighter kind of life than being forced to bear children and do menial duties.

 

[Ilosar]

''forced to bear children'' = being raped, probably on a fairly constant basis. ''menial duties'' = carrying packs so heavy they break your legs while the male soldiers look on with a ''like I give a fuck'' face. At least in combat, your fate and survival are your own in some way, the skilled Legionaries can go somewhere, obtain a post, a command, some amount of prestige and fulfillment if you're into it. A women's life is nothing but being an obedient servant and a toy for the urges of men. So yeah, not exacly sunshine and roses.

 

[laclongquan]

Why do you say Legionaires have no life outside of combat? Do you say they all are robot in human flesh?

That's one hell of a thing to say, considering some of them has life of their own:

The commander of Cottonwood force, whathisname, has some strange meat in his office. Cannibalism?

Ulysses, who is just an agent of Caesar, operates far and wide, with an agenda of his own.

The fact that FNV got too few Legion characters in proportion to their importance in game, doesnt mean all of them has no life outside of combat.

Really, what strange thing you think.

 

[Tagaziel]

''forced to bear children'' = being raped, probably on a fairly constant basis. ''menial duties'' = carrying packs so heavy they break your legs while the male soldiers look on with a ''like I give a fuck'' face. At least in combat, your fate and survival are your own in some way, the skilled Legionaries can go somewhere, obtain a post, a command, some amount of prestige and fulfillment if you're into it. A women's life is nothing but being an obedient servant and a toy for the urges of men. So yeah, not exacly sunshine and roses.

You honestly believe legionaries obtain prestige and fullfillment? The only things legionaries get if they survive is better gear and more responsibility, which only means more opportunities to fuck up. There is no prestige in the legion, no fulfillment. A legionary doesn't even get a pat on the back. His sole raison d'etre is combat and to die for Caesar.

This isn't a better fate than what women experience. You're going off of the inherently foolish assumption that warfare is somehow glorious and better than everyday duties. How is dying disemboweled on the battlefield more glorious than childbirth? How is being an indoctrinated automaton with no identity or purpose in life beyond fighting for a God better than a life of carrying heavy loads?

You're blatantly sexist. Rape only matters when it's the physical violation of woman, but you're consistently ignoring the mental and intellectual rape legionaries are subjected to everyday and discounting the dismal brutality of a legionary's lifestyle.

By the way, if we're going that way, fulfillment isn't exclusive to legionaries. Female slaves that resign themselves to their fate can also achieve fulfillment in their duties.

For the record: their legs aren't broken. It's a workaround to show how heavy the packs are. People with broken legs can't carry loads.

Why do you say Legionaires have no life outside of combat? Do you say they all are robot in human flesh?

That's one hell of a thing to say, considering some of them has life of their own:

The commander of Cottonwood force, whathisname, has some strange meat in his office. Cannibalism?

Ulysses, who is just an agent of Caesar, operates far and wide, with an agenda of his own.

The fact that FNV got too few Legion characters in proportion to their importance in game, doesnt mean all of them has no life outside of combat.

Really, what strange thing you think.

Because they don't? Legionaries are automatons, brainwashed to not think for themselves and follow the orders of their superiors. This doesn't mean they don't have distinct personalities: this simply means they have no life outside the Legion, no wives, no children, no future. They're disposable tools Caesar discards as soon as they fail.

Ulysses isn't a good example, as he's a rogue Frumentarius who no longer follows or supports the Legion and plans to obliterate it.

 

[Ilosar]

You honestly believe legionaries obtain prestige and fullfillment? The only things legionaries get if they survive is better gear and more responsibility, which only means more opportunities to fuck up. There is no prestige in the legion, no fulfillment. A legionary doesn't even get a pat on the back. His sole raison d'etre is combat and to die for Caesar.

And the women's sole raison d'être is to be raped in order to pump out more soldiers and slaves for big C. Glad we agree that the Legion is an horrible society then.

This isn't a better fate than what women experience. You're going off of the inherently foolish assumption that warfare is somehow glorious and better than everyday duties. How is dying disemboweled on the battlefield more glorious than childbirth? How is being an indoctrinated automaton with no identity or purpose in life beyond fighting for a God better than a life of carrying heavy loads?

You certainly are skilled at putting words in my mouth. All I said is that, in a society (roving army, whatevs) based on martial might, those who wield it have more power than those who don't. Unless you seriously believe Lanius is the equal of some lowly recruit, or a random women in the eyes of the rest of the Legion. He's given command of the Battle of Hoover Dam, that's more than purpose enough. He has his own legend forged, that,s identity enough. Same for guys like Aurelius, who isin't a mindless automaton. he's quite clearly proud of his Legionary's (and his own) acheivements. Or Silus, who goes against everything the Legion holds dear as a show of initiative, with a hint of rebellion on the side. They were designed as automatons by Ceasar, but from what little we see of the Legion they clearly aren't. Meanwhile, no women has anything like the power/independance those men wield.

You're blatantly sexist. Rape only matters when it's the physical violation of woman, but you're consistently ignoring the mental and intellectual rape legionaries are subjected to everyday and discounting the dismal brutality of a legionary's lifestyle.

Is this the part where insults start flying gratuitously? Anyhow, it appears that indoctrination is the same thing as rape, so those women should just shut up and deal with it.

By the way, if we're going that way, fulfillment isn't exclusive to legionaries. Female slaves that resign themselves to their fate can also achieve fulfillment in their duties.

And you call me sexist? lulz. They should find fullfillment in being raped and treated as lowly dredges? It's beginning to be laughable honestly.

For the record: their legs aren't broken. It's a workaround to show how heavy the packs are. People with broken legs can't carry loads.

Your talents at stating the obvious are noted. It remains the pack are heavy as hell.

Anyway, I'm out of this because as far as debates of semantics go this one is pretty damn pointless. The Legion sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Kthxbye.

 

[Tagaziel]

And the women's sole raison d'être is to be raped in order to pump out more soldiers and slaves for big C. Glad we agree that the Legion is an horrible society then.

The Legion is not a society. It's a roving war band.

You certainly are skilled at putting words in my mouth. All I said is that, in a society (roving army, whatevs) based on martial might, those who wield it have more power than those who don't. Unless you seriously believe Lanius is the equal of some lowly recruit, or a random women in the eyes of the rest of the Legion. He's given command of the Battle of Hoover Dam, that's more than purpose enough. He has his own legend forged, that,s identity enough. Same for guys like Aurelius, who isin't a mindless automaton. he's quite clearly proud of his Legionary's (and his own) acheivements. Or Silus, who goes against everything the Legion holds dear as a show of initiative, with a hint of rebellion on the side. They were designed as automatons by Ceasar, but from what little we see of the Legion they clearly aren't. Meanwhile, no women has anything like the power/independance those men wield.

How am I putting words in your mouth? You're assuming that combat is glorious and the fact that legionaries fight automatically means they are better off than women.

They are not. There is no position of power or meaning in the Legion. The only person who wields any sort of power is Caesar, with everyone else being completely subordinated to him. The fact that he has Decanii, Centurions, and a Legate to command his slave army does not mean these slaves with greater responsiblity hold any power. If they fail, they are dead, no matter the responsibility they hold.

Power inevitably means a degree of immunity and leeway. However, that is not true for Caesar's Legion. If the Legate screws up, he is set on fire and thrown into the Canyon. If a Centurion fucks up, he is marked for death regardless of circumsances. Rank and file legionaries who fuck up end up on the cross.

Some slaves take pride in their work, like Aurelius or Lanius. That doesn't mean their position is any better than a lowly breeder. They still end up dead if they slip up.

Is this the part where insults start flying gratuitously? Anyhow, it appears that indoctrination is the same thing as rape, so those women should just shut up and deal with it.

When the indoctrination results in a total obliteration of identity and breaking of the persons psyche? Yes.

And you call me sexist? lulz. They should find fullfillment in being raped and treated as lowly dredges? It's beginning to be laughable honestly.

You are the one constantly assuming that all female slaves in the Legion are always raped, because apparently, they cannot be indoctrinated into the values of the Legion.

Your talents at stating the obvious are noted. It remains the pack are heavy as hell.

So?