Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

I'd rather say the beggining of the game is more Legion sided, or at least shows NCR in negative light. The first time you see them is near Primm when they refuse to help locals with raiders as the town doesn't fall in their jurisdiction. Sometime later you meet Legion who just pacified a town of Powder Gangers who've been your enemy since the game started. Only in the later game there's so much NCR and so few of Legion presented.
 
Oppen said:
So, you get an NCR sided game, but mostly because you get it through interactions with people in-game, whose opinions are biased because of the way they live.
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Except the vast majority non-NCR of the people in the game don't support NCR at all. They might not like House but they are generally apathetic toward him because he leaves them alone and they find that preferable to being ruled over by NCR. Obviously NCR is preferable to these people than the Legion, but from the very start people like Trudy or Nash let you know they don't like NCR either and that really doesn't change after you advance and start talking to people from the Followers, Kings, Jacobstown, Strip families, North Vegas, Westside, etc....

The conflict between NCR/Independence/House is well developed, it's only the Legion that isn't developed as much as it should be, but even with more background, the Legion would still likely be the obvious worst choice.
 
ramessesjones said:
Oppen said:
So, you get an NCR sided game, but mostly because you get it through interactions with people in-game, whose opinions are biased because of the way they live.
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Except the vast majority non-NCR of the people in the game don't support NCR at all. They might not like House but they are generally apathetic toward him because he leaves them alone and they find that preferable to being ruled over by NCR. Obviously NCR is preferable to these people than the Legion, but from the very start people like Trudy or Nash let you know they don't like NCR either and that really doesn't change after you advance and start talking to people from the Followers, Kings, Jacobstown, Strip families, North Vegas, Westside, etc....

The conflict between NCR/Independence/House is well developed, it's only the Legion that isn't developed as much as it should be, but even with more background, the Legion would still likely be the obvious worst choice.
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I agree with this. I think the legion was just intended to be the bad guy all along and your real choice is between house yes man and ncr
 
ramessesjones said:
Oppen said:
So, you get an NCR sided game, but mostly because you get it through interactions with people in-game, whose opinions are biased because of the way they live.
Click to expand...

Except the vast majority non-NCR of the people in the game don't support NCR at all. They might not like House but they are generally apathetic toward him because he leaves them alone and they find that preferable to being ruled over by NCR. Obviously NCR is preferable to these people than the Legion, but from the very start people like Trudy or Nash let you know they don't like NCR either and that really doesn't change after you advance and start talking to people from the Followers, Kings, Jacobstown, Strip families, North Vegas, Westside, etc....

The conflict between NCR/Independence/House is well developed, it's only the Legion that isn't developed as much as it should be, but even with more background, the Legion would still likely be the obvious worst choice.
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Well, but then is not NCR sided, is anti-Legion sided.
 
I feel the same way. I don't think this game is too much NCR-sided but I feel it is too anti-Legion sided if that makes any sense....

When I first played through the game, I tried to make the same choices that I would in real life...I was stuck between NCR, House, or Independent but I never even considered the Legion after I saw what they did to Nipton and some of their other actions like slavery of pregnant women...
 
Verd1234 said:
I feel the same way. I don't think this game is too much NCR-sided but I feel it is too anti-Legion sided if that makes any sense....

When I first played through the game, I tried to make the same choices that I would in real life...I was stuck between NCR, House, or Independent but I never even considered the Legion after I saw what they did to Nipton and some of their other actions like slavery of pregnant women...
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I did consider them for a few minutes, while talking to Caesar. He didn't convince me, though.
 
Isn't this sort of par-for-the-course? In FO2 you COULD join the Den Slavers, but that essentially made you universally hated, locked out of a lotta content and damn near every companion hateing you.
 
I think it is too NCR sided cause most quests are tied within the NCR. Im about 16 hours into my new playthrough. Im playing as a criminal and I already have the Rangers on my ass. I wish there were more quests to f*ck with the NCR.
 
LoneSpektre said:
I think it is too NCR sided cause most quests are tied within the NCR. Im about 16 hours into my new playthrough. Im playing as a criminal and I already have the Rangers on my ass. I wish there were more quests to f*ck with the NCR.
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Doing NCRs own quests and trying for the worst possible result is a good way to screw with them. You just need to be subtle enough that they don't catch on to what you are doing.
 
Come to think of it, the "hit crews" ARE a really good gauge to how "one-sided" the faction balances are. It's easy to get the Rangers after you, and if you're actively anti-NCR they come for you fairly early in the game. Meanwhile it takes a LONG time to gain the ire of the Legion enough for them to send their assassins, even if you're equally as actively anti-Legion.
 
ya im pretty sure the games too one sided, i personally didn't like to ncr and their corrupt ways so my playthrought at first was pretty annoying. After wiping them out at Helios One their rangers and solgiers would attack me on the strip and in cities. so....
 
Beavis said:
I think the legion was just intended to be the bad guy all along
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AFAIR the Legion got it worst with all the cuts in budget and development time. Initially it was supposed to be much bigger with many quests. Don't quote me on this, though.

What we have as a result is an oversimplified, more black-and-white version. When events like this happen in real life, it's usually hard to tell who is the good guys. Nipton? Ok, what about Bitter Springs? We still see the remains of it in the game - like Cass saying, that it's hard to choose between them. "Yes, the Legion treats women like shit and are slavers, but OTOH, they do much better job at protecting their lands and trade routes from raiders". Which is perfectly understandable, considering that Cass herself is a victim of NCR corruption and Crimson Caravan ties to organized crime. That's why actually people fall to Hitler and that's why many still retain good memories of Stalin - for the order and security dictators initially bring to chaos.
 
pipboy-x11 said:
AFAIR the Legion got it worst with all the cuts in budget and development time. Initially it was supposed to be much bigger with many quests. Don't quote me on this, though.
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Why not? You are correct. I'm pretty sure the source material backing that up is even in this very topic, albeit a bit further up.

But yeah, there are a couple "remnants" of what FONV set out to be, that EVERYTHING is just another shade of grey, which the Legion was intended to be equally as grey as. This is why none of the endings are the moral superior to any of the others. This is why Colonel Moore is such a bigoted bitch, and why there's an entire dialog tree with her regarding how she admires the Legion in some ways.

Hell, I thought that the Remnants (the group/faction) were the pinnacle of this. I really didn't like the Enclave's depiction in FO3, because I thought it was a child's idea of what they would look like if they made a sequel keeping them intact as a faction. I loved the complexity of their original depiction in FO2, and yet they scared the shit out of me and I still hated them for ultimately being a force powered by don't-ask-questions drones and led by amoral, elitist, xenophobic bigots. And here we have the Remnants, making the Enclave (what little's (actually) left of it) seem practically benevolent compared to everyone around them. They seem almost heroic, and badass yet dangerous enough that you remember why they were so scary when they were a complete faction.
 
Remnants of Enclave? The key word is remnant, chap. Only the best or the most skilled to evade capture after all those years. And they dont care at all about politics.

A faction that institutionalize slavery, destroy tribes, and the best anyone can say about them is that traders are free to operate inside their land (ie raiders are scared shitless)? Legion is an evil choice, which frankly speaking is why anyone would choose them. Gamers are attracted to BAAAAAAAD choice, like girls are attracted to bad boys.

Nipton is a good example of Legion's preference to atrocity. But it's not alone. Nelson is another good example. And in Cottonwood you can rescue a family of NCR immigrants who got captured during an ambush. The slavemaster casually discuss about the boy "too old to be trained but too young to be of use, might as well kill him".

Oooooh I want to be baaaaaaaaaad~
 
laclongquan said:
Remnants of Enclave? The key word is remnant, chap. Only the best or the most skilled to evade capture after all those years. And they dont care at all about politics.

A faction that institutionalize slavery, destroy tribes, and the best anyone can say about them is that traders are free to operate inside their land (ie raiders are scared shitless)? Legion is an evil choice, which frankly speaking is why anyone would choose them. Gamers are attracted to BAAAAAAAD choice, like girls are attracted to bad boys.

Nipton is a good example of Legion's preference to atrocity. But it's not alone. Nelson is another good example. And in Cottonwood you can rescue a family of NCR immigrants who got captured during an ambush. The slavemaster casually discuss about the boy "too old to be trained but too young to be of use, might as well kill him".

Oooooh I want to be baaaaaaaaaad~
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Still, better than Thalon company who want to kill somebody because he is good man.
Oooooooh I'm a bad guy so I should kill good guy~
At least, Legion kills for efficiency. Although that efficiency isn't that logical.
 
laclongquan, your post clearly shows, that you dont know lore well.

Read it at start, before saying anything about Legion.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/325677464040792162

The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.

While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).
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http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/254383289454835076

Why are people so obsessed with the "balance" between the different gendered roles under the Legion? I've never said it's balanced. But there is very clearly a trend among people questioning the Legion to project the concept of military service as a noble endeavor (for which one is rewarded, no less) onto legionnaires when it's never presented in that way. They are slave soldiers. Service is not voluntary, they can't retire, there are no parades and pats on the back for them. They aren't Roman patrician officers who are going to retire to a Tuscan estate when they turn 50.

The only power that male legionaries have is to serve Caesar well enough to be promoted to a position of more responsibility. Nothing really comes with that additional responsibility other than increased scrutiny and better equipment (to match the increased danger).

Most of my commentary on this topic has been to highlight the following:

* Caesar's Legion is subdivided (by Caesar) based on gendered/sexed roles. These subdivisions are sexist (inherently), but they are neither misogynistic nor misandric.
* Legionaries under Caesar are not like Roman patrician officers. They are not part of a larger society that celebrates and rewards military service with things like conference of honorific titles, triumphs, etc. All legionaries are slave soldiers, period.
* The opinions of individual legionaries are not the opinions of Caesar. These individuals may make misogynistic comments, but those comments did not originate with Caesar, nor is there any reason to believe that he shares them, given his willingness to employ a female courier.

If you want to weigh the individual horror of rape and forced child-bearing against forced military service for life, knock yourself out. It's two terrible ways to go through life.
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And remember.
Legion achieved everything without player help (like NCR with Vault Dweller and Chosen One) or high technology factions like BoS or Vault City, ofc. in a shorter time.

Obvious, that NCR is better, but writing something like this:
Legion is an evil choice, which frankly speaking is why anyone would choose them. Gamers are attracted to BAAAAAAAD choice, like girls are attracted to bad boys.
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is madness.

Fallout 1 (Fallout 2 only in half) and FNV are all grey, not like F3 with good vs evil main theme. (Chivalry BoS etc.)
 
Legion evil?

No, I wouldn't call them evil. A bit extreme and heavy handed, but considering how its a post apocalyptic future inhabited by things that want to make you into a sandwich, I think I can understand the spartan life style.

Oh, and about destroying tribes, I've got two words: Bitter Springs.
The NCR ain't all innocent and goody-two shoes; they can be as dickish as the legion.
 
Who said anything about NCR yet? I just name the reasons I call Legion evil:

Eighty six tribes has been conquered, destroyed, their members absorbed into Legion. Any resisted would be killed or enslaved. EIGHTY SIX.

We are not talking about mistake in intelligence that lead to the massacre of Bitterspring here. We are talking about a concious policy of destroy every and all tribes, either enemies OR allies. you resist? Die or enslaved. You ally? Disband then Fall in line or enslaved. Even the Roman of old didnt destroy tribes on that level. accidentally, yes, not consciously.

Legion civilians? I see none of that type. Oh you said on a document. On paper. In short, aint been done yet.

I dont judge them on their conceptual design. I judge them as shown on gameworld. And by that criteria Legion is quite evil incarnate.

As a last shot, I will tell you this about the massacre of Bitterspring, so far the strongest argument against NCR: Great Khans. They are traditionally NCR's greatest enemies. Since the very founding days of the Republic. Dont forget that the most popular president of NCR, Tandi, was kidnapped by them and hold in captivity for a long time. At the time of FNV, Great Khans also the greatest opposition to NCR expansion into Mojave outside of Legion. It's by no way an excuse for the massacre, but to put things in perspective.
 
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