Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

[laclongquan]

Erase tribal identities easier said than done, chap. Speaking with the slavemaster in Cottonwood, he still remind people which tribe he's from. Ulysses, too. The named character that allow you to get Lupa brain also has an origin.... Generally the Legion is too new to achieve that lofty goal.

Also, It's too early to say Legionaires has no family. Mojave is the very battlefront for them, no way they would bring families there unless in well defended camp of which there's only two on the other side of river. Dont forget, they are responsible for a lot of atrocities on NCR\s region of influence. Bring families to Mojave is inviting reprisals.I dont think the lack of Legion family can point to such a state. NCR can do bring families here because it's their colonization effort.

 

[Tagaziel]

Erase tribal identities easier said than done, chap. Speaking with the slavemaster in Cottonwood, he still remind people which tribe he's from. Ulysses, too. The named character that allow you to get Lupa brain also has an origin.... Generally the Legion is too new to achieve that lofty goal.

So? They are first generation legionaries integrated in the Legion. Some traces of tribal identity cannot be removed at that point. Subsequent generations will only know of the Legion.

Regardless, all legionaries, regardless of generation, are loyal to the Legion, and the Legion only.

Also, It's too early to say Legionaires has no family. Mojave is the very battlefront for them, no way they would bring families there unless in well defended camp of which there's only two on the other side of river. Dont forget, they are responsible for a lot of atrocities on NCR\s region of influence. Bring families to Mojave is inviting reprisals.I dont think the lack of Legion family can point to such a state. NCR can do bring families here because it's their colonization effort.

Except they don't have families. It's explicitly stated that the process of eradicating their old tribal identities involves the breaking up of traditional family structures.

There are no families, no tribes, no kin under the Legion. There is only the Legion.

 

[woo1108]

There are no families, no tribes, no kin under the Legion. There is only the Legion.

That reminds me Master's army.

 

[laclongquan]

Master's Army is possible only because all the member are dumbed down AND sterile. No intelligence to distract, no bloodbond to tear at loyalty.

Human, however, is not Super Mutant.

Anyway, back to Legion:

No family? Breaking up current family and clan to absorb members into Legion? Wow, the hatred fester in the rank and file must be incredible. And they know that their mother, sister, wives, daughters, female relatives... will live a life of miserable existence. Meanwhile, they can just look over the river and see the NCR females live not too bad.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Master's Army is possible only because all the member are dumbed down AND sterile. No intelligence to distract, no bloodbond to tear at loyalty.

All? So what about Marcus? Lou Tenant? Viscious? Zaius? Gammorin? God and others nightkins before suffering from schizophrenia? Master's Army haven't any disloyalty because it was great idea, until someone discovered infertility.

 

[laclongquan]

Marcus is a great leader, dont get me wrong. He found Broken hills, he gather his people at Black Mountain, then lead them to Jacobstown. Great leader. But not too smart, just enough. Mind you, intelligence is different from charisma, as in real life, as well as in this Fallout setting.

In all seriousness, too intelligent is a great bar toward loyalty. They question too much and will find unpalatable answer, that shaken their loyalty..

You will notice Master army dont have infighting, like what happened in human army. That alone should tell you they are not human. We have the tendency to jostle for position even in time of dangers.

Second, the pressure on SM at the time of Fallout is very great. They are the sole organization of their kinds. Leaving the Army mean wandering the Wasteland alone. At that time there's no Gecko plant, no Broken hills. No home, no safety, no family. it's no wonder they cleaved themselves tightly to the Army. With it, they are a part of a gigiantic organism, single in purpose and at peace with themselves.

Only to Fallout 2 do they have some option: Move north to Gecko and Broken Hills, or wandering around with small bands of Remnant of Master's Army.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Maybe we should start from this instead.
You know, that FEV improve intelligence if human is pure? And Master got a lot of pure strain humans from for example Vault 17?
There was a lot of intelligent super mutants, most of them became nightkins.

No family? Breaking up current family and clan to absorb members into Legion? Wow, the hatred fester in the rank and file must be incredible. And they know that their mother, sister, wives, daughters, female relatives... will live a life of miserable existence. Meanwhile, they can just look over the river and see the NCR females live not too bad.

Considering Caesar is their god... really, there isnt any hatred around there. Also, you should realize that most members of Legion are former tribals, their lives weren't so great before Legion came.

 

[laclongquan]

How many more experiments on supposedly pure human until you can satisfy that no too-smart SM can be made? Master has experimented a great deal. Then Enclave tried. Even a human population of a 'control', ie pure from fallout taint, Vault was thrown in the mix.

No, Master is a just a freak chance, one in a million FEV mutations. "FEV will make human smarter" is just a myth, something the FEV designers striving toward but failed miserably.

Anyway, the point about infertility is not about sex as such, but about the impossiblity of a normal family. Super Mutants shall have no family. They only have what they make. And in that case an Army suit them just fine.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Master's Army is possible only because all the member are dumbed down AND sterile. No intelligence to distract, no bloodbond to tear at loyalty.

Oh, so all the human servants are complete neutered dumbasses then. Including the scientists in charge of the Vats at Mariposa. Good to know.

Morpheus is complete cretin as well I guess. You'd have to be in order to manage the sheer logistics of maintaining a radical religious movement


/sarcasm off

Yeah, the generalization that the Master's Army is only possible through idiocy is completely wrong.

 

[Oppen]

How many more experiments on supposedly pure human until you can satisfy that no too-smart SM can be made? Master has experimented a great deal. Then Enclave tried. Even a human population of a 'control', ie pure from fallout taint, Vault was thrown in the mix.

No, Master is a just a freak chance, one in a million FEV mutations. "FEV will make human smarter" is just a myth, something the FEV designers striving toward but failed miserably.

Anyway, the point about infertility is not about sex as such, but about the impossiblity of a normal family. Super Mutants shall have no family. They only have what they make. And in that case an Army suit them just fine.

First, The Master is in fact a too-smart SM. Harold is smart too. Both are FEV mutants, so they are supermutants for what is relevant here.
Second, SMs from vaults are smart, it's canon. Also, as you said, intelligence and charisma are two different things. You can know how charismatic is someone by talking to him. You can not know how intelligent is through the same means. Some of the smartest people I know (future scientists, and succesfull in college) lacks comunicational skills. Mostly spoke ones, they write alright.
Third, SMs weren't loyal because they were dumb (even the dumb ones) but because their minds were bonded with The Master's mind. That's part of the idea of the Unity. It's somewhat like Gaia in Fundation and Earth, from Isaac Asimov.
Also, even having options like Gecko or Broken Hills, they would probably have joined Master's Army, for several reasons: the first, because they do forget most of their past when they are dipped in the vats, so they actually will feel like they were born there, like it is their family. And you need a really good reason to want to break family bonds. Mutants didn't live a shitty life, and their target, from the point of view of The Master, is a pretty altruist one. As a matter of fact, mutants could have been accepted in human society in Fallout 1 if they weren't in plan "you come with us or you're dead". Harold is a pretty ugly mutant and lives in The Hub, not in the most exposed way but he lives there, and people know about him. Do they kill him? Nope. The fear to supermutants came after the Master, not before the Master. So, the lack of options is also because almost all of the mutants chose to join The Master.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I thought Harold was a ghoul, not a super mutant.

Well, I guess ghouls are a type of mutant, but...oh, you get the idea.

EDIT: Well, I'll be damned...

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Harold

It's been too long since I played FO1...

 

[Tagaziel]

No family? Breaking up current family and clan to absorb members into Legion? Wow, the hatred fester in the rank and file must be incredible. And they know that their mother, sister, wives, daughters, female relatives... will live a life of miserable existence. Meanwhile, they can just look over the river and see the NCR females live not too bad.

Why? Caesar's indoctrination is very thorough and very strong. Caesar uplifted the tribes and gave them a purpose. They were little more than savages before Caesar's rise, fighting petty squabbles with primitive technology, closer to cavemen than civilized peoples.

Caesar gave them a new life, a purpose, eradicating the old order and imposing his own. Sentimental tribesmen were crucified or hacked to pieces, tribal identities burned away, the people broken and reforged.

Legionaries don't hate Caesar, they revere him as a god. They also don't look with envy towards the NCR. On the contrary, the Republic is seen as weak and pathetic, lacking purpose and direction.

Indoctrination of this kind is a very common thing throughout the ages.

No, Master is a just a freak chance, one in a million FEV mutations. "FEV will make human smarter" is just a myth, something the FEV designers striving toward but failed miserably.

It's not a myth.

http://www.falloutwiki.com/FEV#Mariposa_strain_.28FEV-II.29

ncreased size of neural transmitters and synaptic receivers in the body give super mutants acute reflexes and heightened senses. However, these changes are not accompanied by a similar rise in intellect: the FEV strain in Mariposa typically lowers the intellect by 30%, though exceptional individuals may retain their intellect or even experience an increase.[4] Damage is caused by recursive growth and increase in brain mass, which may be accompanied by disfigurement and damage to existing neural patterns, causing loss of memory.[9]

Loss of intelligence is the usual result, but FEV does work as advertised in some individuals, such as the Lieutenant and Marcus.

 

[laclongquan]

Let's just stop on that myth already. Like I said, freak chance and stuff. If the SM can be smart they would have show more inviduals like that. Instead, the smart ones can be counted on one hand.

Back toward Caesar's : Dont put too much faith/emphasis on brainwashing. I am from Vietnamese, we know all about that during the period, first with our Chinese comrades, then with our Russian friends. Brainwashing can only work on certain inviduals, certain groups, at certain ages. Otherwise, people just fake it for the sake of politic or survival. Each got a super computer inside the skull, dont you know. It's easy as speaking.

(edit: also, savages? You speak like a sneering imperialist. Savage or not, at least they dont lower their females down to the status of near-slave, near-beast breeders.)

Look at Caesar Legion from a tribal's point of view: You have the choice to join or die. You join. You have the choice to spouting some shits about Ave and Roman and Dissolute or you face censure. You spout it. It's easy when you consider the alternative. Meanwhile, you know for a fact that your female relatives live a very oppressed life compare to your old life before. You know for a fact that your family is broken, you clan scatter to the wind, your tribe is no more. You know for a fact that in your 'enemies' land tribes still exist, and the females live better than here.

Only a Caesar-boy will think it will end well for the Legion. Only if you close your eyes, stuck finger into ears and shout at the top of your lung "LA LA LA LA I DONT HEAR ANYTHING I DONT SEE ANYTHING I WILL SAY NO EVIL".

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Like I said, freak chance and stuff. If the SM can be smart they would have show more inviduals like that. Instead, the smart ones can be counted on one hand.

So you knows better than developers? Better than game itself?

It's like discussion with Ilosar, who pretends to know everything better than others. We are just showing true facts, REFERENCED, not like your words "it is like this" because what? Because you're stating so?

You said there was hatred withing Legion? So maybe some proof? Some dialogue line? Otherwise, it just guess (false one...).

Only a Caesar-boy will think it will end well for the Legion.

These words, only shows that you dont get Legion at all, even a little. After Caesar and his maraduing army would take over Vegas, it would change... successfully? none of us knows... (only developers does )

 

[Tagaziel]

Back toward Caesar's : Dont put too much faith/emphasis on brainwashing. I am from Vietnamese, we know all about that during the period, first with our Chinese comrades, then with our Russian friends. Brainwashing can only work on certain inviduals, certain groups, at certain ages. Otherwise, people just fake it for the sake of politic or survival. Each got a super computer inside the skull, dont you know. It's easy as speaking.

Are you seriously comparing a country in the modern world, from the 20th century, to backward tribes living on a level comparable with neolithic cultures, with no writing, technology, or social organization beyond tribal chieftains?

(edit: also, savages? You speak like a sneering imperialist. Savage or not, at least they dont lower their females down to the status of near-slave, near-beast breeders.)

The Legion doesn't do that? Males fight and craft weapons/armor, females breed children and do the rest of menial labor. You're painting a much worse picture of the Legion than what's presented in the game.

Look at Caesar Legion from a tribal's point of view: You have the choice to join or die. You join. You have the choice to spouting some shits about Ave and Roman and Dissolute or you face censure. You spout it. It's easy when you consider the alternative. Meanwhile, you know for a fact that your female relatives live a very oppressed life compare to your old life before. You know for a fact that your family is broken, you clan scatter to the wind, your tribe is no more. You know for a fact that in your 'enemies' land tribes still exist, and the females live better than here.

No, you don't, because the only alternative life you know of is the primitive, violent tribal strife. By the time you learn of other options, you've been thoroughly indoctrinated to believe and be loyal to the Legion.

Stop comparing primitive tribes composed of illiterate savages with no social organization to speak of to people living in the modern times, with access to education and technology. That's the first, most important error you make.

Only a Caesar-boy will think it will end well for the Legion. Only if you close your eyes, stuck finger into ears and shout at the top of your lung "LA LA LA LA I DONT HEAR ANYTHING I DONT SEE ANYTHING I WILL SAY NO EVIL".

Good job at completely missing the point of the Legion. The Legion works because Caesar has been assimilating primitive tribes that were knocked back millenia in development, to neolithic and pre-neolithic time.

 

[laclongquan]

We are talking about facts here:

Fact one: Tribals join Legion or die/enslaved. Tribe will be disbanded will they nil they. There EIGHTY SIX example for it. No choice, no option. You either with Legion (as slave) or you die.

Fact two: Tribal life is not necessary bad or primitive, or even very violent. Arroyo? Dead Horse? Sorrows? I know you imperialist guys like to pretend to be bearer of light in the wilderness but things dont work like that, especially when you pretend the wilderness is Hell.

Fact three: Brainwashing doesnt work long term. This has been proved again and again in real world. If you dont like example of Vietnam and Asia, try Africa and its various warlords/charismatic leaders. At best it works during the lifetime of that charismatic leader. When he die it all coming down like a house of card. Ergo Caesar Legion will come apart when Caesar die. Various warlord in the upper echelon will fight it out to see who control what, and the splinter factions will go their own tribal way.

If you really have to admire some strong bastards, try it with the Great Khans. They just dont die, no matter the enmity of a powerful republic like NCR.

 

[Muff]

Fact three: Brainwashing doesnt work long term. This has been proved again and again in real world. If you dont like example of Vietnam and Asia, try Africa and its various warlords/charismatic leaders. At best it works during the lifetime of that charismatic leader. When he die it all coming down like a house of card. Ergo Caesar Legion will come apart when Caesar die. Various warlord in the upper echelon will fight it out to see who control what, and the splinter factions will go their own tribal way.

If you really have to admire some strong bastards, try it with the Great Khans. They just dont die, no matter the enmity of a powerful republic like NCR.

While I agree with some of your post, I do have to point out the Kim's of North Korea keep the cult of personality alive, across multiple generations. While the new little bugger seems to have some reduction in power compared to his father and grand father it is no less a cult of personality. If Caesar died, while there would be some in fighting it wouldn't last long as one of the the legates would take control, sure it would be a splintered and some what broken legion initially but it would eventually start to rebuild it's self.

The tribes he took over have been broken and reformed into the legion and have no natural identity now the members of the tribes split up, they would not just pack up the toys and go home they would carry on after a fashion. Some of the rules would change but the core of the legion would carry on.

 

[Tagaziel]

Fact one: Tribals join Legion or die/enslaved. Tribe will be disbanded will they nil they. There EIGHTY SIX example for it. No choice, no option. You either with Legion (as slave) or you die.

Yes. That's what Legion is about.

Fact two: Tribal life is not necessary bad or primitive, or even very violent. Arroyo? Dead Horse? Sorrows? I know you imperialist guys like to pretend to be bearer of light in the wilderness but things dont work like that, especially when you pretend the wilderness is Hell.

Imperialist? Arroyo, Dead Horse, and the Sorrows are exceptions, as they developed in isolated locations. The tribes that Caesar conquered were violent savages living in primitive conditions, far below that of tribes in ancient and medieval history. Whereas the Gauls were literate peoples with a developed economy system, roads, and technology, the tribes of Arizona and Grand Canyon were savage primitives. Hell, the first tribe that Caesar conquered, the Black Foots, were on the brink of being wiped out by another, equally savage tribe.

You are also completely ignoring statements from characters and the developers that Caesar uplifted the tribes, turning them from savage tribes picking each other apart into an united army with a strong purpose.

Fact three: Brainwashing doesnt work long term. This has been proved again and again in real world. If you dont like example of Vietnam and Asia, try Africa and its various warlords/charismatic leaders. At best it works during the lifetime of that charismatic leader. When he die it all coming down like a house of card. Ergo Caesar Legion will come apart when Caesar die. Various warlord in the upper echelon will fight it out to see who control what, and the splinter factions will go their own tribal way.

Uh, yes, it does. Indoctrination with religion is very effective and resistant to removal. Caesar is god to the Legion and he does nothing to disprove that.

Furthermore, you're assuming that the savages Caesar conquered are comparable to people living in the current, modern world. They are not. They are savages who were cut off from culture and technology and devolved into primitive, neolithic societies.

And before you try to use it as an argument, no native peoples of non-European continents weren't savage or primitive. For example, North American indigenous people had a fully functional political system and advanced technology as well as culture, comparable to the invading Europeans.

Most tribes conquered by Caesar were the exact opposite.

If you really have to admire some strong bastards, try it with the Great Khans. They just dont die, no matter the enmity of a powerful republic like NCR.

Except the Khans are completely different from the savages Caesar pressed into service in the Legion. Most of them are literate, they have the proper technology and knowledge to maintain weapons, produce armor, shelter, and copious amounts of drugs.

 

[Oppen]

Let's just stop on that myth already. Like I said, freak chance and stuff. If the SM can be smart they would have show more inviduals like that. Instead, the smart ones can be counted on one hand.

Nightkin are smart. You just don't know enough of them through gameplay interaction because they either consistently try to kill you in Fallout 1 or they are schizophrenic for the use of stealthboys. Also, there is an unfinished faction in Fallout 1, named Thinker Nightkin. They are not only smart, but seem to be somewhat rebel to the Master's plan (instead of assimilating everyone into the Unity, they believe humans and mutants should live together as a society, pretty much like what Marcus tries to do in Fallout 2 and New Vegas). And again, you was the one who said charisma is not the same as intelligence, when citing the case of Marcus. You can get a hint of charisma through conversation, but trying to measure intelligence through conversation is misleading. So, either you get me a detailed IQ test for every mutant to prove your point, or is as valid and based upon nothing as mine.

 

[Muff]

Let's just stop on that myth already. Like I said, freak chance and stuff. If the SM can be smart they would have show more inviduals like that. Instead, the smart ones can be counted on one hand.

Nightkin are smart. You just don't know enough of them through gameplay interaction because they either consistently try to kill you in Fallout 1 or they are schizophrenic for the use of stealthboys. Also, there is an unfinished faction in Fallout 1, named Thinker Nightkin. They are not only smart, but seem to be somewhat rebel to the Master's plan (instead of assimilating everyone into the Unity, they believe humans and mutants should live together as a society, pretty much like what Marcus tries to do in Fallout 2 and New Vegas). And again, you was the one who said charisma is not the same as intelligence, when citing the case of Marcus. You can get a hint of charisma through conversation, but trying to measure intelligence through conversation is misleading. So, either you get me a detailed IQ test for every mutant to prove your point, or is as valid and based upon nothing as mine.

I have to pull you up there, while some super mutants have baseline human IQ levels, most are quite dumb. Marcus was a oddity possibly a low rad count human prior to being dipped, the original super mutants where created by Grey as a army, numbers mattered not brains. He was interested in creating smarted super mutants, mostly to lead the stupid ones, the Lieutenant in FO1 for example military rank at a level that needs more than point this end at the person you want to die and pull this to make them die. The whole point of the master wanting the vault is for low rad count humans, as they make better mutants this is most likely because they will retain some form of higher reasoning and analytical skills.

Not much history is given about Marcus, apart from he wandered round the wastes for a bit after the master was killed he fought with a Paladin from the BOS (who became his best friend), and the rest is covered in game.

As for that faction, the faction was cut I don't know why but it could have been because it makes little sense in the main plot of the game. As apart from a relitivly small number of mutants they are as thick as a whale omelet, served on a brick sandwich.