Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

I just cant resist.

Dialog is absolutely the last thing you should trust, because the game devs are under time-constraint. Doing stupid dialog for all stupid characters would be absolutely bloating the time factor here.

I said it earlier, intelligence is not the same as charisma. Marcus is a great leader, he found three communities: Broken Hills, Black Mountain, and then Jacobstown. But could he prevent them from being collapsed under internal conflict?

Broken Hills got hit from human versus Super Mutants bigotry, only escape a civil war due to Chosen One's meddling with it. Black Mountain exploded due to conflict between 1st generation and 2nd generation super mutants, and Marcus had to leave, bringing with him who he can, not even most of the dumbdumb. And jacobstown is the same, suffer under the conflict between nightkin and super mutants. but luckily the Courier help him out (IF). AND, no doubt about it, due to the lacks of stealth boys forcing the nightkins' attention away from the conflict.

With all the love for Marcus, and believe me I like the big guy very much, he's good enough to found towns, but he's not intelligent enough to get them going for long. That requires intelligence.
 
So the thing the game presents us to show the personality and traits of the characters is the last thing we should use to judge a character?

And Marcus intelligence doesn't stop plutonium from running out, or makes bigots stop being bigots, or the stealthboys having the effect over Nightkin basing Marcus intelligence around stuff he had no control over is pretty dumb.
 
The intelligence and charisma stats do not matter for an NPC, because those stats are used, and only used, for various dialogue options. Dialogue options that no NPC has any access to. And since such a stat doesn't matter on a NPC, it doesn't really make any sort of sense to waste time working out what one meaningless stat value would best suit some random guy you'll probably speak to for a couple of times anyway.

That's why when you see the intelligence stat on a character, its either ridiculously high or ridiculously low. Either way, it doesn't matter; its just there for cosmetic reasons.

Give me one reason why a NPC would need to use charisma or intelligence, that is not related to this asinine discussion.

Also, prior to knowing their stats, and I'm assuming you didn't look up their stats first because would be silly, did any of the characters you claim as "stupid" seem stupid?
 
That guy is hilarious, who cares what developers did? He knows better where they did mistakes and what in-game is false.

:lol:

Broken Hills got hit from human versus Super Mutants bigotry, only escape a civil war due to Chosen One's meddling with it. Black Mountain exploded due to conflict between 1st generation and 2nd generation super mutants, and Marcus had to leave, bringing with him who he can, not even most of the dumbdumb. And jacobstown is the same, suffer under the conflict between nightkin and super mutants. but luckily the Courier help him out (IF). AND, no doubt about it, due to the lacks of stealth boys forcing the nightkins' attention away from the conflict.
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So, using your logic...

You're suggesting that all (around 600k) humans in California are also stupid, because their cities without help of player character (Vault Dweller, then Chosen One) would collapse?

So, if all humans are stupid as super mutants, it means... :wall:
 
laclongquan said:
Blah blah blah~ Like I said, pointless effort.
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What is a pointless effort? Please elaborate.

You also did not answer my question. Are you hiding something?

I am waiting for your response.
 
laclongquan said:
My last pointless counter-argument here: if you cant trust in the data gather from creatures' files using editor tools, what can you trust? Your vague sense of intelligence? Hah. Out of 40 SM you name, about third has their SPECIAL reported, and from there, half of them has intelligence lower than 5. And from your own link, too. Smart Super Mutants, Hah~

Thank you, all of you. Your posts are proving my my point perfectly. I am sure readers will draw their own conclusion .
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Again, if you trust data gathered using editor tools, you trust the thinker nightkin. Who happen to be smart and maybe even rebel. I already provided a link for it. IT. IS. IN. GAME. FILES.
Not a dev's interview, game files. So, choose. You shot your whole argument in the head by negating validity of editor tools use, or you give validity to thinker nightkin. As a matter of fact, in your other post you use as argument the time constraints to put retarded dialogues to your suppossedly idiotic characters. The same reason this faction was left out. Ouch, it hurts. Aaaand, Torr is actually the proud owner of stupid dialogues, lots of super mutants coming from miners (wastelander miners, mind you) in the Military Base in Fallout 2 are too the owners of in-dialogue stupidity, Horrigan, IIRC a generous amount of stupid mutants in Fallout 1 have dialogues matching their IQ, so... There is even a flavor character in Fallout 2 (the one with the hubologists) who happen to have its idiotic dialogues. Devs had time for this, but not for A COMPANION like Fallout 2's Marcus to have dialogues matching its intelligence? I don't think that makes sense.
 
laclongquan said:
My last pointless counter-argument here: if you cant trust in the data gather from creatures' files using editor tools, what can you trust? Your vague sense of intelligence? Hah. Out of 40 SM you name, about third has their SPECIAL reported, and from there, half of them has intelligence lower than 5. And from your own link, too. Smart Super Mutants, Hah~

Thank you, all of you. Your posts are proving my my point perfectly. I am sure readers will draw their own conclusion .
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Actually lots of mutant who was apeared in 1,2 are smart.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Marcus
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Melchior

Damm fo3 made mutants fool....

and brokenhills were collapsed because ore had been exhausted. I don't think intelligence can solve that proble..
 
IMO fallout's NPC's special has problem because SPECIAL system it self isn't perfectly designed for npc. Only for player, it works fine.
But I don't think Bethesda can make SPECIAL perfect though they will make special system worse.
 
FNV is not REALLY pro-NCR as the two first Fallout games are, though most folks in and around the Vegas were pro-NCR. another facts were needed to be considered.
1. Many californians poured into the Mojave Wastelands by the 2281, either as tourists, or immigrants, and yet it might be possible that the Courier him/her self is actually californian!.
2. Other two factions were actually oppressives.
- The Legion believes in the modus operandi of Might makes Rights, other policies that is a part of Total War are too much terrifying that it is only works where other powerful rival factions aren't there. the "Legion Lottery" incidents were too frightening to draw any local supports.
- Mr. House simply rule the Vegas Strips (and some of its surroundings) as it is his personal Kingdom... oddly enough, he never called himself 'The King' while a cult of Elvis fans residing in the Freesides took the title instead (and are indeed a reigning power of the Freeside). Not only he favors Old West peacekeeping and order maintaining styles. he also favors feudalism.

Right after the Doomsday, Mr. House himself, who had become a cyborg wired to the Castle of Lucky 38 Casino Hotel (which it is also a gigantic anti-balistic missile laser battery) went coma due to the existing softwares couldn't handle a rain of 77 warheads! (and can't even discern which ones are decoys and which were the real ones), decades of coma meant that while the City is (partially) saved, postwar peacekeeping mechanisma went offline right after that moment, meant that the city fell to the aftermath of the Great War. Anachy, so that's why Vegas was a tribal city until a californian explorer discovered that there was ONE CITY that has NOT BEEN FLATTENED. By the time Mr. House awakens and discovered that the City is not what he wants it to be, he activated an army of Securitrons stationed at Lucky 38 Hotel Casino to subdue those 'unworthy scums', eventually three tribes were subjugated and sworn fealthy to Mr. House. while the Great Khans (who believed in a pride of their tribalism instead of the old world civility) fled the City after lost their wars against Him. Three tribes were reformed into Family, and were given themes inspired by the three Old World Aristocracy cultural referrences; The Pre-Revolution Bourbons (White Gloves... all of them has French names), The Mafia of the Prohibition Era (The Omertas), and the 20s-50s Corporate Tycoons (The Chairmen) and fieves as a 'reward'. Under this environment, citizens of the Strip has a considerably hard lives as they were nothing more than a peasant to these three lords (and one 'Lich King')... not really better than the days of Tribal Vegas (maybe worse!), so when NCR troops entered the City, they discovered that the soldiers of the Republic were more reasonable than the medieval Lords ruling the Strips at the time. that's why they're likely to support the NCR and even eager to join the Republic.
3. The Enclave of the old past did not treat Vegans well, At its height of the power. I think they raided every tribal villages and dragged those folks to the firing squads! Their only crime is 'born impure', but the Enclave as the folks were frightened by their presences were only a bad memory. yet in the Legion endings, if Enclave remnants participated in the Battle of Hoover Dam (and survived) and Caesar survived, he issued an order to not pursue an Enclave vertibird and it is narrated that the Enclave is still feared by the folks long after they have been defeated. If the Enclave had restored its strenghs to the points before the Chosen One blown up the Poseidon Oil Rig. they will be one more malicious factions that The Courier has to fight instead of talking to.
3. As said earlier. Kimball planned to annex NCR through the local consensus so they exchanged Constabulary tasks with the vegans in exchange of their full support. even then the NCR status in the Mojave is NOT secure, Not only the determined Legion, but also the treacherious Mr. House who wished to expell these invaders might revoke the Treaty of New Vegas as soon as an opportunity arises.

But not all 'Vegans' support the NCR, there are TWO (Apart of the Courier) who might support the Legion.
1. Van Gaffs: Despite that they are Californians, They're breaking the NCR Law, Period.
2. The Omertas: Mafia of the 23rd Century, they believed that the institutions of the Rule of Law (and Republicanism) contradicts their ways, and many leaders want to rule the Strips themselves so some Omerta leaders support the Legion. a deal between Vulpes Incuta and one of the Capos said that the Legion and the Omertas recognizes each other, If the Legion won the war, the Omertas got a feifdom of the whole Strip while Legion controls other sections. It is assumed that the 'warnings of the Legion treachey' did NOT reach the Omerta leaderships.
Too bad the Omertas did not taste any aspects of Legion treachery.
And even if there's any vegans says no to the NCR doesn't mean that he/she says yes to the Legion, Chairmen (Including the treacherous Benny) believed that Legion will eventually betray them once they've achieved their goals. (and they might have heard the tales how Legion betrays their allies before)

Actually, the 'canon' ending of FNV should be the 'Yes Man' endings. a fortuneteller seemed to suggested it (and encourage players to pursue the path of Independency).
 
Interesting how a thread can go from discussing the bias towards the NCR in New Vegas to essays asking if the 86 Tribes still exist, to discussions about special points, and back to the bias again...
 
Oppen said:
Again, if you trust data gathered using editor tools, you trust the thinker nightkin. Who happen to be smart and maybe even rebel. I already provided a link for it. IT. IS. IN. GAME. FILES.
Not a dev's interview, game files. So, choose. You shot your whole argument in the head by negating validity of editor tools use, or you give validity to thinker nightkin. As a matter of fact, in your other post you use as argument the time constraints to put retarded dialogues to your suppossedly idiotic characters. The same reason this faction was left out. Ouch, it hurts. Aaaand, Torr is actually the proud owner of stupid dialogues, lots of super mutants coming from miners (wastelander miners, mind you) in the Military Base in Fallout 2 are too the owners of in-dialogue stupidity, Horrigan, IIRC a generous amount of stupid mutants in Fallout 1 have dialogues matching their IQ, so... There is even a flavor character in Fallout 2 (the one with the hubologists) who happen to have its idiotic dialogues. Devs had time for this, but not for A COMPANION like Fallout 2's Marcus to have dialogues matching its intelligence? I don't think that makes sense.
Click to expand...

You make good points but not sufficient enough.

Out of all idiot characters, isnt that Torr the only one with real implemented dialog? Oneliner is just too simplicitic to count. Make dialog for one char is different than making a whole bunch of dialog for every idiot chars. An exception is not a policy decision. A policy of making many idiot characters has his/her own idiot dialog would have huge implication in man-hour investment.

And if I remember correctly, isnt Frank one of the very very few NPCs with 10 across the SPECIAL? Same as the Master? Did I not say Master is a freak of nature? Adding Sergeant Frank doesnt lessen that status of his. With the resource of Enclave one would have thought more of the same Sgt Frank would have been made, considering his ease-of-control feature.

I remind you, once again, that Marcus found THREE towns. An idiot-sounding Marcus will not be able to do that. I mean, if he had sounded idiotic like a 2INT Chosen One I and a lot others would have posed the question "why would any human follow this idiot?"

I forget the Hubologist case you mentioned. please remind us of his name and his dialog. Again, I stress that oneliners doesnt count. It must be actual dialog.

I reiterate the intention to argue on game files, game characters actually implemented. Cut content doesnt count. designed but unimplemented doesnt count. In short, anything that doesnt legitimately appear in game doesnt count.
 
Only Torr have idiot dialogue, because he's only completely idiot in the game, which have interaction with the player.

I see no sense in doing some dialogues for idiots, especially when there is no purpose to include them in game.

Your thinking is completely wrong.

So, I will explain to you.

Idiot super mutant dialogue
http://www.falloutwiki.com/EcGrunde.msg (FO2)
http://www.falloutwiki.com/HARRY.MSG (FO1)

Super mutant with normal intelligence, like all humans
http://www.falloutwiki.com/HcMARCUS.msg (FO2)
http://www.falloutwiki.com/MLOPS.MSG (FO1)

See difference?
But hey, according to you, developers didn't knew about their universe and they did wrong with so many intelligent SM... <facepalm>

But still, we showed in few ways that you horribly wrong, you had no counter, and still insist on your statement... without any basis.
And im wonder why we still feed troll...
 
Heh. You make good ground, providing those dialog files, very good ground, since we now can argue on actual proof.

Let's see:

Fallout 1: Harry the SM and the technician SM.

Fallout 2: Grundel (Mariposa base)

As I said above, Marcus doesnt count because the troubling fact of his founding three towns. If he sound like an idiot no one would have followed him through the wasteland that is immediate aftermath of Master War, or the longer trek from Navarro (after Oil Rig explosion) to Broken Hills then eastward.


Now then, what we are arguing about. I put that SM is generally idiots, with very few (ratio very low) intelligent enough, and the "increased intelligence" feature of FEV is complete myth (freak of nature like Master or Frank doesnt count). You say that SM is smarter due to FEV (ie FEV actually increase intelligence), and you are trying to supply proofs to defend your position and/or attack mine. Right?
 
No... you said otherwise...
Master's Army is possible only because all the member are dumbed down AND sterile. No intelligence to distract, no bloodbond to tear at loyalty.
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Tell me the name of smart Super Mutants if you can. Like I said, they are numbered in one hand. You said they are smart. Well name them and prove me wrong. (Undeveloped content doesnt count).
Click to expand...

So seems like we convinced you to true facts.

As I said above, Marcus doesnt count because the troubling fact of his founding three towns. If he sound like an idiot no one would have followed him through the wasteland that is immediate aftermath of Master War, or the longer trek from Navarro (after Oil Rig explosion) to Broken Hills then eastward.
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I don't get it. If they wouldn't follow Marcus, they will follow someone other... so Marcus count. Because they must followed some smart mutant, and it was Marcus in this case. Why they didn't follow some Harry or so? Because they were idiots.

Heh. You make good ground, providing those dialog files, very good ground, since we now can argue on actual proof.
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You're really unpleasant and nasty... you did nothing, only saying some "your truth" (based on nothing), at same time not providing some references like we did with names or articles, and now you require some proofs to overthrow your statement.... discussion doesn't work this "troll" way.


And some quote from Master to you.
Mast42}{I doubt even the FEV will help you. Why am I talking? It's unlikely you even understand . . .}
Click to expand...
:wink:
 
Languorous_Maiar said:
I don't get it. If they wouldn't follow Marcus, they will follow someone other... so Marcus count. Because they must followed some smart mutant, and it was Marcus in this case. Why they didn't follow some Harry or so? Because they were idiots.
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I don't think mutants except for marcus is idot.
IMO, other named mutants in brokenhills are smart as marcus.
If they were stupid as fo3's, they can't keep peace without marcus(after he leave the broken hills to help chosen one). but they can keep villiage in peace(if you done great at broken hills.)
 
Yes, I said otherwise?
A few posts earlier I even mentioned Francis and Zaius, who are pretty smart. Hell, even all miners are smart (like humans), just look at their dialogues.
Marcus is just very intelligent, in comparision to other.
 
laclongquan said:
You make good points but not sufficient enough.

Out of all idiot characters, isnt that Torr the only one with real implemented dialog? Oneliner is just too simplicitic to count. Make dialog for one char is different than making a whole bunch of dialog for every idiot chars. An exception is not a policy decision. A policy of making many idiot characters has his/her own idiot dialog would have huge implication in man-hour investment.

And if I remember correctly, isnt Frank one of the very very few NPCs with 10 across the SPECIAL? Same as the Master? Did I not say Master is a freak of nature? Adding Sergeant Frank doesnt lessen that status of his. With the resource of Enclave one would have thought more of the same Sgt Frank would have been made, considering his ease-of-control feature.

I remind you, once again, that Marcus found THREE towns. An idiot-sounding Marcus will not be able to do that. I mean, if he had sounded idiotic like a 2INT Chosen One I and a lot others would have posed the question "why would any human follow this idiot?"

I forget the Hubologist case you mentioned. please remind us of his name and his dialog. Again, I stress that oneliners doesnt count. It must be actual dialog.

I reiterate the intention to argue on game files, game characters actually implemented. Cut content doesnt count. designed but unimplemented doesnt count. In short, anything that doesnt legitimately appear in game doesnt count.
Click to expand...

Again, you are telling us SPECIAL is a valid source to determine intelligence of a character. You say noone would believe a retarded Marcus can found three towns? Well, guess what: INT 2 IS RETARDED, BREAKING NEWS! :)
You directly disregarded dialogs as a way to measure NPCs intelligence previously, so you are contradicting yourself. It doesn't matter if he sounds like a smart mutant or a stupid mutant, because according to you, his intelligence is similar to the one of a retarded Chosen One. Who happens to be retarded, you know?
And as a matter of anecdotic data, no one needs a smart Marcus to found Broken Hills, since the smarts could be easily provided by Jacob. People following them looked only for security.
Also, SPECIAL values doesn't legitimately appear in game, you need editor tools to find out. And you need the same tools to find out about the cut content I'm telling you about. It's exactly the same level of appearance in game. In fact, these cut contents are more exposed, since .msg files can be open with any text editor, while SPECIAL are stored in other file format.

And about the man hours, I believe you are aware common dialogs are reutilized, aren't you? If they intended to make most of the mutants retarded, they could just make the generic mutant dialog retarded, and that's it. Then, they could make only some specific ones, like the Lieutenant, smart. It's probably the same amount of time they invested in making Torr stupid. But, there is a chance they just didn't want to make MOST SMs stupid, maybe because it wasn't intended to be that way...
laclongquan said:
Now then, what we are arguing about. I put that SM is generally idiots, with very few (ratio very low) intelligent enough, and the "increased intelligence" feature of FEV is complete myth (freak of nature like Master or Frank doesnt count). You say that SM is smarter due to FEV (ie FEV actually increase intelligence), and you are trying to supply proofs to defend your position and/or attack mine. Right?
Click to expand...
The increased intelligence feature is not a myth. The game provides you an explanation: if the subject was previously radiated, the resulting mutant will be somewhat "corrupted". Then, you say the ratio of smart mutants is low. And yes, it's relatively low. Like the ratio of unradiated/radiated humans in the wasteland.
 
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