Thats kinda unfair, what have the Fiends ever done to you ? What! Oh well ...Tagaziel said:
Is NV too much NCR-Sided?
- Thread starter gongos
- Start date
White Knight
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Thomas de Aynesworth said:
I disagree. I think it adds a new element of difficulty to the game. With VB's hanged man, it was almost impossible to get on the good side of the games tribals. Why? Because the Hanged man had burned, raped, murdered them, and would take any oppurtunity to do that in the game to the twin mothers. But, he was one of the best companions.
well he can be complex AND cause you to have issues with tribals. Pfff ... 
YOu know its just the "hurr durr ... I hanged man! KILL PEOOOOPLE ALLL NOW !!!" kind of mentality which I dont think fits except he became a degenerated super mutant somehow.
YOu know its just the "hurr durr ... I hanged man! KILL PEOOOOPLE ALLL NOW !!!" kind of mentality which I dont think fits except he became a degenerated super mutant somehow.
Thomas de Aynesworth
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Crni Vuk said:well he can be complex AND cause you to have issues with tribals. Pfff ...
YOu know its just the "hurr durr ... I hanged man! KILL PEOOOOPLE ALLL NOW !!!" kind of mentality which I dont think fits except he became a degenerated super mutant somehow.
+ 1
Couldn't of said it better.
brfritos
Humma Kavulaaaaaaa
Little Robot said:
But in the end they will go to war against your robots, it's in their Codex not to let other groups have advanced technology.
Every projection House or Yes Man run ends with the BoS engaging against Vegas.
Not destroying their bunker is only postpone the inevitable (in every possible game ending they always go to war against Yes Man and House).
That's why the game runs towards the NCR, it's the only group who accept them as allies.
[ ]'s
UncleSlappy
First time out of the vault
brfritos said:
Wait is that Codex stuff about the Brotherhood not letting other groups have advanced technology actually in the game?
If so that's a gross and very stupid retcon. I never got the impression in Fallout 1 and 2 that the Brotherhood was about storming into places and stealing advanced tech from lesser people. They seemed mostly interested in preserving their own technology and keeping to themselves.
That would just turn the Brotherhood into evil tech raiders.
White Knight
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
No, the Codex says that the Brotherhood has a Responsibility to protect Humanity from itself by acquiring all Military Technology. This stemmed from Roger Maxsons experience at Mariposia. The original view was to prevent incredibly powerful technology that could harm humanity from falling into the wrong hands. Of course now its been warped into that nobody else is worthy of technology.
Threepwood
Look, Ma! Two Heads!
You can ally with them in an Indipendant ending. Just don't turn the NCR hostile, a trick i learnt from another forumer. [spoiler:cc081056f9]Use a speech check to convince the NCR heavy troopers to leave, and then the Remnants, BOS, any other allies you recruited stay friendly.[/spoiler:cc081056f9]
Anarchosyn
Still Mildly Glowing
White Knight said:
Those could still be argued to be the same thing or, at the least, an natural evolution in thought (seeing as how there is quite a bit of time between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3). It all hinges on how you define "incredibly powerful" (and where that wording comes from originally). I guess "wrong" is also a slipperly slope from a select few to everybody.
These kind of ideological shifts aren't too hard to imagine.. hell, Richard Nixon invented the EPA and the 1956 Republican platform was all about "[continuing] our far-reaching and sound advances in matters of basic human needs--expansion of social security--broadened coverage in unemployment insurance, etc" (if you're not an American then or just out of the loop, this is about 180 degrees from their platform today).
Plautus
Angry Preacher
Thank you for bringing this up. In my opinion, Caesar's Legion has too much of a tribal look and feel, especially since they shun medicine. The real Romans, in truth, had the best battlefield medicine available until after the American Civil War, with central heating, professional doctors, and specialized wards in their military hospitals. I wish they had brought that up for the Legion. Also, there is a mention in the quest to get Boone about a bureau of slave trading led by (presumably civilians) with three Latin named apiece (one was Marcus Licinius Crassus...) and that theme too could have been expanded upon.
Through conversation with some NPCs, for example the trader Dale Barton, we learn that the Legion's home territory is actually very safe, since they annihilated all the raiders. Barton also says that the Legion is a good customer to those who don't sell drugs and alcohol, unlike the NCR, which imposes heavy fines.
All in all, I feel as if they hinted at some positive qualities to the Legion, but didn't expand on the enough. Here are some suggestions to make the Legion a better faction.
1. Improve the uniforms. If Caesar can mint coins, he should be able to make chainmail. In the late Roman Republic, soldiers would wear metal helmets, chainmail, tunics, pants that covered the leg down to the kneecap, and thick leather sandals. Surely, the Legion could make such uniforms. The more professional look and improved quality of armor could add a layer of shock and awe (and challenge) to the game. Also, in lieu of machetes, real gladii could be used (once again, making steel swords it a relatively low tech affair)
2. Deeper interaction with the Frumentarii. How cool would it be to learn to blend in with NCR citizens and soldiers, just to undermine their strength? Go on quests with Vulpes Inculta as he teaches you to hide yourself in plain sight. Possible rewards could include a better disguises perk! Also, perhaps Vulpes could become a permanent companion...
3. Rise through the ranks! Go on raids with legionaries and get honorary membership in the Legion! Do well enough and become a Praetorian Guard...
4. Challenge Lanius as Legate and lead the Battle of Hoover Dam! This would require a dialogue check with Caesar and then a one-on-one duel with the Legate. Then, choose a suit of Legate armor and a Latin name (like you were able to choose a crime lord name in New Reno).
5. See some civilians. Learn from the non-militant residents of Caesar's empire why he is such a good ruler, or perhaps not.
Through conversation with some NPCs, for example the trader Dale Barton, we learn that the Legion's home territory is actually very safe, since they annihilated all the raiders. Barton also says that the Legion is a good customer to those who don't sell drugs and alcohol, unlike the NCR, which imposes heavy fines.
All in all, I feel as if they hinted at some positive qualities to the Legion, but didn't expand on the enough. Here are some suggestions to make the Legion a better faction.
1. Improve the uniforms. If Caesar can mint coins, he should be able to make chainmail. In the late Roman Republic, soldiers would wear metal helmets, chainmail, tunics, pants that covered the leg down to the kneecap, and thick leather sandals. Surely, the Legion could make such uniforms. The more professional look and improved quality of armor could add a layer of shock and awe (and challenge) to the game. Also, in lieu of machetes, real gladii could be used (once again, making steel swords it a relatively low tech affair)
2. Deeper interaction with the Frumentarii. How cool would it be to learn to blend in with NCR citizens and soldiers, just to undermine their strength? Go on quests with Vulpes Inculta as he teaches you to hide yourself in plain sight. Possible rewards could include a better disguises perk! Also, perhaps Vulpes could become a permanent companion...
3. Rise through the ranks! Go on raids with legionaries and get honorary membership in the Legion! Do well enough and become a Praetorian Guard...
4. Challenge Lanius as Legate and lead the Battle of Hoover Dam! This would require a dialogue check with Caesar and then a one-on-one duel with the Legate. Then, choose a suit of Legate armor and a Latin name (like you were able to choose a crime lord name in New Reno).
5. See some civilians. Learn from the non-militant residents of Caesar's empire why he is such a good ruler, or perhaps not.
@Pluauts,
while i agree that they should have shown more civilians and changed their outfit and whatnot, i still have to comment on the medicine thing and such.
You really should keep in mind that our knowledge of the history is quite limited. And in such an situation, in which we only have few sources, our picture of the history is a fragile 'cloud-castle' with not only a few things binding it to the reality.
while i agree that they should have shown more civilians and changed their outfit and whatnot, i still have to comment on the medicine thing and such.
You really should keep in mind that our knowledge of the history is quite limited. And in such an situation, in which we only have few sources, our picture of the history is a fragile 'cloud-castle' with not only a few things binding it to the reality.
Black Feather
Mildly Dipped
Plautus said:
this. Just for the brillant voice actor he deserves to be a companion, there are too few "evil" companions anyway...
Himmelstoss
First time out of the vault
I basically agree that NV is pushing you towards the NCR. But hey, there are possibilities! First, I'd say it might be a good idea to side with the Powder Gangers, [spoiler:e7f3619896]since their missions will make you tick off the NCR. If you're going to side with the NCR, helping the Powder Gangers doen't really mesh well.[/spoiler:e7f3619896]
Down the road, you don't actually have to start hunting the NCR actively, not at once. You can do a few missions for them. I'd try to get to [spoiler:e7f3619896]Cottonwood Cove early on though. That way you'd have a base, sort of, in the south.[/spoiler:e7f3619896] Further down the road you could do missions for the Great Khans, etc.
Down the road, you don't actually have to start hunting the NCR actively, not at once. You can do a few missions for them. I'd try to get to [spoiler:e7f3619896]Cottonwood Cove early on though. That way you'd have a base, sort of, in the south.[/spoiler:e7f3619896] Further down the road you could do missions for the Great Khans, etc.
DoubleRubix
First time out of the vault
Well let's see. Legion enslave women, takes away all identity, there only "close" ally is the Great Khans not because they want to but because they hate the ncr for what happened, and he is still willing to grudgingly forgive them or leave rather then fight.The brotherhood of steel are also willing to help them when they just lost their base. And the Enclave is also willing to help either side despite the fact they were almost hunted into extinction. Marcus puts it best. The Legion is not a nation it is Caesar. He is powerful and charismatic enough to make people go against their normal ways. When Caesar is dead the legion will follow soon. What happens with Kimball dies? They elect a new president.
Crni Vuk said:well he can be complex AND cause you to have issues with tribals. Pfff ...
YOu know its just the "hurr durr ... I hanged man! KILL PEOOOOPLE ALLL NOW !!!" kind of mentality which I dont think fits except he became a degenerated super mutant somehow.
I think the hanged man was supposed to be something supernatural like Judge Holden in Blood Meridian
Wintermind
Vault Senior Citizen
The Hanged Man was designed as a way to give you a big advantage in combat at the cost of the ability to be diplomatic, in particular with the with the tribals. You get better at combat but instead of the typical opportunity cost of not getting better at diplomatic/skills, you have something actively working against you when it comes to diplomacy.
Oh, and I'm sure that there was more planned for the Hanged man's character development than "MURDER HAHAHHAHAHAHA".
Oh, and I'm sure that there was more planned for the Hanged man's character development than "MURDER HAHAHHAHAHAHA".
DevilTakeMe
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
Plautus said:
There's a good reason for that. Rome wasn't built in a day, as the saying goes, and while there's been many changes to the various tribes to destroy cultural identity, there are still many things that the Legion still has to fix in order to really become a "civilized" culture.
The Legion, as a culture, is still quite young (three decades old, as opposed to the century and a half-old NCR). Many of the more primitive aspects from the previous lives of the 86 tribes will still need some more time to eradicate. This includes the hypocrisy of Caesar against technology and advanced medicine.
The presence of coins does not denote metallurgical knowledge required to make functional armor or weapons. Legion currency is made of silver and gold, both are poor metals to make weapons or armor with. It's quite easy to just make a press stamp to make the coins.
There are legion blacksmiths around, but their job is to arm the soldiers, often with easy-to-make machetes (as opposed to real swords, etc.). Creating more complex weapons and armor will require more time and more material.
It's easier to reuse existing material from a logistics standpoint.
It's not like the Legion don't want better gear - they were negotiating a deal with the Van Graffs for energy weapons, afterall. They just don't have the proper resources or time with their continuous conquests and campaign to make -new- ones.
Then there's a matter of getting the entire Legion these new uniforms. There are, afterall, 86 tribes. There's enough Legion to counteract the NCR's supposed numerical superiority with their own.
DoubleRubix
First time out of the vault
Well you gotta consider the NCR was created about 100 to 150 years before NV and if you go off the basis Caesar was 18? and about 50+ now that is 40 years. And his lack of desire to increase productivity doesn't help him look like he wants people to change.