Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

[Crni Vuk]

neat how you lump the community here together

I mean all posting here hate Bethesda and Fallout 3 as well right ? Must be so. Its NMA!

On a more serious note. The issue with the Legion is that you have to consider the point of view. If you actually want the best for Vegas then you simply cant be a supporter for the legion. If you actually think that slavery and violence is the answer for everything then of course the Legion is your option. We discussed that already quite often in detail.

The part many people here complain about is not that the Legion is so "bad" (for the lack of better words to describe it) but that the devs did a poor job on showing more diversity with the Legion in the game and thus they come of as very one sided while the NCR offers many different views (regardless if you agree with them now or not).

 

[GatheringCircle]

If you actually want the best for Vegas then you simply cant be a supporter for the legion. If you actually think that slavery and violence is the answer for everything then of course the Legion is your option.

Those two sentences are at a conflict. On one hand you say it is all point of view, but then you say that if you want the best for the Mojave you can't support the Legion. So everyone who thinks slavery and violence is the correct way to deal with tribals is automatically wrong? So much for point of view.

 

[Ilosar]

I agree that the Legion does need to be fleshed out better and their policies made more clear, but the inability for those people who cannot sympathize with the Legion, because they prefer a democratic and inept government, is not a problem. That is by design.

You misunderstand. What I meant is that there are no characters in the Legion that you can sympathize with, to any degree. I can relate to many NCR characters (such as Hanlon, Boone, Major Knight, all of First Recon, the Misfits, Hsu, hell even Moore, very slightly), I can relate to Brotherhood characters (Namely Veronica and McNamaran), I can relate to House to an extent, but how the hell can I relate to Sallow when he is such an hypocrite, petulant dictator? Or to the creepy as fuck mass murderer Vulpes? Or to the all the other Legionaries who have no personality beyond declaring their loves for killing people in various ways? Only Lanius (within the final hour) or Silus (if you take a specific route with hm) give you any depth and interest to the people in the Legion. More than anything, the fact they are almost universally composed of unlikeable dicks at best is what sinks the Legion for me.

Those two sentences are at a conflict. On one hand you say it is all point of view, but then you say that if you want the best for the Mojave you can't support the Legion. So everyone who thinks slavery and violence is the correct way to deal with tribals is automatically wrong? So much for point of view.

He was talking from the point of view of the people of New Vegas, you know. For some, it would be right to put them to work I guess, even if by overwhelming force. They themselves sure as hell don't want to be slaves to the Legion or killed defending their lands.

And as far as I am concerned, yes seeing violence as the only solution to every problem is a problem in itself.

The Legion is an incredibly misunderstood faction. I hear all this stuff about them burning down Vegas and killing just about everyone and I don't know where people are getting it from. What about Caesar "enslaving a large amount of the population and peacefully lording over the rest", that doesn’t sound like killing everyone. With the Legion you break the rules you die or end up wearing a slave collar, but they don't seem to fuck with people for no reason, in my opinion that separates them from a giant raider army who kill and torture for sport. Backing up that claim is Raul; despite the Legions anti mutant prejudice the Legion treated him fairly because he followed the rules.

I'm not completely sold on the Legion and am quite aware of the Legion defects (superstition, rape, cruelty, opposition to medical science), but I think most of those faults are the result of using a conscripted tribal army. Caesar even hints that the prohibition of medical science has more to do with tribal taboos than his belief of an ideal society. Most likely the conquest of the NCR would bring in better recruits and would counter a lot of these flaws.

Killing or enslaving a majority of a population is not evil enough for you, or fucking people for no reason? Where did Raul say the Legion treated him fairly, he only said the roads were safe because of them? The taboo on medicine is quite explicitely enforced by Caesar (he states it makes the body weaker or some other nonsense), if it was not he would be doing an extremely poor job of wiping out Tribal culture and superstition from his army. And since the Legion indoctrinates all it's Legionnaries from childhood to be killing machines, it doesn't matter where they come from. Your excuses are extremely weak if you ask me, try to do better.

People don't sympathize with the Legion simply because it's retarded. It's a cartoony EVEEEL faction led by M. Bison. It's simple as that, it's RETARDED.

The worst thing is that they actually tried, but to me it feels so half-assed (yes, we are murderes and slavers and sexist and rapists and quasi-Luddites but hey! No taxes!) that they almost should not have bothered. I would have put a whole other faction up against NCR anyway and make lil' Caesar's evilly evil band a minor faction as in Van Buren, but that's beyond the scope of the thread.

 

[Crni Vuk]

If you actually want the best for Vegas then you simply cant be a supporter for the legion. If you actually think that slavery and violence is the answer for everything then of course the Legion is your option.

Those two sentences are at a conflict. On one hand you say it is all point of view, but then you say that if you want the best for the Mojave you can't support the Legion. So everyone who thinks slavery and violence is the correct way to deal with tribals is automatically wrong? So much for point of view.

Well as said. It depends on what YOU think is the best.

If YOU think for the people of the vegas region it is the best that they become slaves then of course that is the best solution in your opinion. But don't be surprised if the people of Vegas tend to disagree. Well I might be wrong about this since yeah I cant claim to know what everyone is thinking. I just guessed that what the Legion wants is probably not the best from the viewpoint of the vegas population. But as said. I might be wrong and they all welcome the idea of becoming slaves.

*
Maybe its the lack of any english skills today (it comes and goes sometimes ...)

But what I mean is that as intelligent person it should be no problem to make a difference between "opinion" and the actual situation. To go with something extreme. You could be a supporter of slavery (like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson of which both owned slaves) and yet still know that it is not the best kind of situation as whole. So even if you love the legion you could still see or acknowledge that their solution has not to be the best one for Vegas. What ever if you care about that or not is a different question.

 

[Brother None]

Those two sentences are at a conflict.

They're not at conflict, because no sane person thinks violence and slavery with no aim or direction is the answer to anything.

It's not that hard, either. They could've made it so the NCR is clearly out of its depth and lacks the means to hold control (they don't, the only reason they're stretched is the Legion), while the Legion is brutal, hard-handed, but fair, can be trusted and dealt with (they can't be, they constantly betray and slaughter even their own allies, such as the Tangled Hairs), and offer much more stability. And this is obviously where they wanted to go, with hints at trade route security, but it's never fleshed out. That means there's no balance between the factions.

I would have put a whole other faction up against NCR anyway and make lil' Caesar's evilly evil band a minor faction as in Van Buren

That was the plan. NCR-Brotherhood war, Legion roaming in the background.

 

[Lexx]

That would have been better, yes. But not in New Vegas' timeframe. I mean, how believable would it be, if there would be hundreds of BoS soldiers in the Mojave now, fighting the NCR? It can't be a small BoS group, because then the player would just roll over them and everything is done. I can't see this being turned into some epic-like battle thingy.

VB made it not the main story for the game, so it worked there.

 

[Brother None]

I wasn't suggesting it'd be the main story for New Vegas, I think the poor BoS has been exploited enough and needs to be given a break by now. Fixing New Vegas is easy, just make the NCR more powerless and the Legion less cruel and more trustworthy.

 

[GatheringCircle]

If YOU think for the people of the vegas region it is the best that they become slaves then of course that is the best solution in your opinion. But don't be surprised if the people of Vegas tend to disagree. Well I might be wrong about this since yeah I cant claim to know what everyone is thinking. I just guessed that what the Legion wants is probably not the best from the viewpoint of the vegas population. But as said. I might be wrong and they all welcome the idea of becoming slaves.

*
Maybe its the lack of any english skills today (it comes and goes sometimes ...)

But what I mean is that as intelligent person it should be no problem to make a difference between "opinion" and the actual situation. To go with something extreme. You could be a supporter of slavery (like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson of which both owned slaves) and yet still know that it is not the best kind of situation as whole. So even if you love the legion you could still see or acknowledge that their solution has not to be the best one for Vegas. What ever if you care about that or not is a different question.

I could not have put it a better way myself. Now as said in the game by Caesar, slavery has been a gift to all the tribes he has encountered before, but the Mojave region is well developed, because of Mr. house and the NCR so perhaps the people of New Vegas do not find that Caesar is their best option, but I am not concerned with what they want. I am concerned with humanity and the whole world in general, if what is best for humankind means slavery for some profligates, too bad for them.

 

[SharkClub]

I really wish the Legion were less retarded in New Vegas. They REALLY need more faction quests.

Are there any mods which add (good, believable, non-lore-breaking) Caesar's Legion quests?

 

[Brother None]

if what is best for humankind means slavery for some profligates, too bad for them.

Yeah, if that was true. It obviously is not.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Yeah, if that was true. It obviously is not.

Yes it is for lowly raiders who care nothing for anyone else. Giving them purpose, even through force is, good when all that they would have done is terrorize other neighboring tribes for all eternity.

 

[Brother None]

Yes it is for lowly raiders who care nothing for anyone else.

Even if most of the wasteland is still just raiders and tribes, which at this point in Fallout's timeline is very unlikely, we've already seen the NCR and others do much better jobs pacifying the wasteland without all the bloodshed and repression.

The Legion like this might have worked if this was within a century of the apocalypse, and the wasteland was in the state we see in Fallout 1. It isn't, civilized societies and even nations are rebuilding and providing people with much better options. And along comes the Legion to destroy it, or put a nation like the NCR under pressure, and destroying wealthy, prosperous growing nations like New Canaan. Yeah, that's certainly for the long-term good of humanity.

 

[GatheringCircle]

Even if most of the wasteland is still just raiders and tribes, which at this point in Fallout's timeline is very unlikely, we've already seen the NCR and others do much better jobs pacifying the wasteland without all the bloodshed and repression.

When the NCR comes across a tribe that isn't civilized to their liking they kill them all e.g. the Great Kahns. Caesar enslaves them instead of just killing them. So a tribe is forced between death or slavery. Hmmm slavery doesn't seem so bad. There are obviously quite a few tribes as Caesar's Legion is composed of 87 and that outnumbers the NCR, then you have to think of all the places that never had vaults like Canada. There is much less society than you think. If it wasn't for Mr.House the Mojave would just be ruins as well.

I agree though that the NCR should not fight a nation more likely to succeed, but seriously, if a nation developed without pressure it wouldn't survive it's first encounter with it. Strong nations fight a lot as told by Hegelian Dialectics.

 

[White Knight]

Even if most of the wasteland is still just raiders and tribes, which at this point in Fallout's timeline is very unlikely, we've already seen the NCR and others do much better jobs pacifying the wasteland without all the bloodshed and repression.

When the NCR comes across a tribe that isn't civilized to their liking they kill them all e.g. the Great Kahns. Caesar enslaves them instead of just killing them. So a tribe is forced between death or slavery. Hmmm slavery doesn't seem so bad. There are obviously quite a few tribes as Caesar's Legion is composed of 87 and that outnumbers the NCR, then you have to think of all the places that never had vaults like Canada. There is much less society than you think. If it wasn't for Mr.House the Mojave would just be ruins as well.

I agree though that the NCR should not fight a nation more likely to succeed, but seriously, if a nation developed without pressure it wouldn't survive it's first encounter with it. Strong nations fight a lot as told by Hegelian Dialectics.

The great khans were destroyed because they attacked caravans and supplied drugs to the fiends, which was opposing the NCR's interest, they have expanded peacefully otherwise, Vault City being a good example. And 87 tribes definitely does not outnumber an entire state, especially when the capital has 70,000 citizens alone.

 

[GatheringCircle]

The great khans were destroyed because they attacked caravans and supplied drugs to the fiends, which was opposing the NCR's interest, they have expanded peacefully otherwise, Vault City being a good example. And 87 tribes definitely does not outnumber an entire state, especially when the capital has 70,000 citizens alone.

Yes the NCR destroys what goes against their interests, where as Caesar re-purposes them. Every underdeveloped tribe the NCR meets is going to be against the NCR's interests, and Vault City is not an example of a primitive tribe the Great Kahns are though. The fiends are also a primitive tribe and so are the Vipers, none of these would even get a second glance form the NCR before every last one was killed.

Also it is quite clear that Caesar's legion has superior numbers to the NCR.

 

[White Knight]

The great khans were destroyed because they attacked caravans and supplied drugs to the fiends, which was opposing the NCR's interest, they have expanded peacefully otherwise, Vault City being a good example. And 87 tribes definitely does not outnumber an entire state, especially when the capital has 70,000 citizens alone.

Yes the NCR destroys what goes against their interests, where as Caesar re-purposes them. Every underdeveloped tribe the NCR meets is going to be against the NCR's interests, and Vault City is not an example of a primitive tribe the Great Kahns are though. The fiends are also a primitive tribe and so are the Vipers, none of these would even get a second glance form the NCR before every last one was killed.

Also it is quite clear that Caesar's legion has superior numbers to the NCR.

The NCR is at conflict with the Khans, the Vipers and the Fiends, because they are criminals who sell drugs, rape and murder people, and not surprisingly protecting people is one of the NCR's interests. The NCR hasn't attacked any other tribe.

And I interested to see where you get the numbers for that statement about the legion outnumbering the NCR

 

[Quagmire69]

Killing or enslaving a majority of a population is not evil enough for you, or fucking people for no reason? Where did Raul say the Legion treated him fairly, he only said the roads were safe because of them? The taboo on medicine is quite explicitely enforced by Caesar (he states it makes the body weaker or some other nonsense), if it was not he would be doing an extremely poor job of wiping out Tribal culture and superstition from his army. And since the Legion indoctrinates all it's Legionnaries from childhood to be killing machines, it doesn't matter where they come from. Your excuses are extremely weak if you ask me, try to do better.

Were are you getting this killing the majority of the Mojave, Ceasar wants to rule them, not kill them.

Also even though alot of Legion soldiers were raised from birth most were not born into the Legion but belonged to conquered tribes. Ceasar is working the human material he has. If you notice Ceasar does'nt do any of the son of mars crap with the courier because he knows the courier is not a superstitious tribal who won't fight unless the Gods are with him.

In all likelyhood the Legion will become a secular rationalist society after the assimilation of the NCR.

Oh and heres the qoute about medicine "in a culture that forbids modern medicine the auto doc is great gift to bestow".

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Oh and heres the qoute about medicine "in a culture that forbids modern medicine the auto doc is great gift to bestow".

I seem to remember that he also said something along the lines of "medicine makes you weaker" or "not relying on medicine makes you stronger".

 

[Sabirah]

Oh and heres the qoute about medicine "in a culture that forbids modern medicine the auto doc is great gift to bestow".

I seem to remember that he also said something along the lines of "medicine makes you weaker" or "not relying on medicine makes you stronger".

That's because they are still basically a roving army.

Once the NCR is gone Caesar will make the entire southwest a neo Roman Empire, with all the scientific benefits that entails

 

[DevilTakeMe]

Oh and heres the qoute about medicine "in a culture that forbids modern medicine the auto doc is great gift to bestow".

I seem to remember that he also said something along the lines of "medicine makes you weaker" or "not relying on medicine makes you stronger".

It's in line with his belief that the trappings of Old World society - modern technology, medicine, etc. - which the NCR embraces, was the downfall of old world society.

Basically, Caesar outlawed anything from the old world that he feels his people would become to depend on, rather than making themselves stronger. That includes modern medicine, technology, and anything associated that could lead to a dependence.

This is quite notable when Caesar outlaws alcohol, despite Rome having been a society that really enjoyed it's wine.