It's again that time of the year ... or Muslim bashing!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Jul 16, 2016.

  1. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    According to media, the attacker was Ali Sonboly born in Germany, descendant of Iranian immigrants arriving to Germany in the nineties. So he was a German, but not a Dr. Merkwürdigliebe grade German.
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Dunno, I have been living in this shit hole for the last 30+ years. I havn't seen EVERY corner of Germany, but all in all, it is a rather peacefull place. I never ever said that viollence or crime doesn't happen.

    http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/20-most-peaceful-countries-the-world-live.html
    Place 15
    Another central European country where a fondness for the arts, history and music is not considered elitist. It is just a normal part of cultural life and tradition. High standards of living plus excellent organization in everyday life make Germany a great choice. Add in some great beer, trekkers’ paradise (with even trails for nudists), Christmas markets and beautiful fairy tale towns and you have a wonderful place to live.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index
    Place 16
    The main findings of the Global Peace Index are:[13]

    Peace is correlated to indicators such as income, schooling and the level of regional integration
    Peaceful countries often shared high levels of transparency of government and low corruption
    Small, stable countries which are part of regional blocks are most likely to get a higher ranking.

    Statistical analysis was applied to discover more specific drivers of peace. Specifically, the research team looked for indicators that were included and excluded from the index that had high levels of correlation with the overall score and rank of countries. Among the statistically significant indicators that were not used in the analysis were the functionality of a country's government, regional integration, hostility to foreigners, importance of religion in national life, corruption, freedom of the media and GDP per capita.[14]


    https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/the-worlds-most-peaceful-countries/ss-BBg982k#image=15
    Place 17
    The reunified Germany has blossomed into a diverse and relatively peaceful country. Over the years it has shown a steady reduction in nuclear and heavy-weapons capabilities, instead focusing on economics and its people. High standards of living and an exceptional organization in everyday life makes life in Germany peaceful. In picture: A scene from the 181st Oktoberfest in Munich, Germany.

    In my opinion, Germany is very peacefull.

    Why is the map showing all of the Muslim expansions while concentrating with the Christian religion only on the Crussades which have been a rather small portion of christian history? If we want to make a fair comparission, include ALL christian expansion. How do you think christianity made its way into South America and the US? What about the Christian conquest in Germany and northern Europe? Like the Carolingian expansion and the eastern wars, most notably the the Saxson wars, under Charlemange. Charlemagne was engaged in almost constant battle throughout his reign. And he was not the only Christian ruler in that respect. Or the Teutonic order, knights which owned a great portion of land in eastern Europe and fought for almost 200 years wars against, what they called heretics.

    Those kind of comparisions are meaningless because they don't even get to the bottom of religion and just concentrate on a rather small portion of what religion can be and what it was used for, be it with Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

    Yes, and even with the recent events, I am still sticking with that opinion. Is it so inconceivable, that there might be a relation between terrorism and an overly agressive foreign policy? That's all I am trying to say.

    Point is, even with as terrible attacks like in Munich, or with Anders Behring Breivik in Norway, it is still obvious that both Germany and Norway are very peacefull and stabile nations for it's citizens.

    Where have I said terrorists are awesome people? All I am saying, even terrorists, are human beings. If you want to find solutions for a problem, you have to understand it first. Why people do the things they do, for example. I will never justify their actions! Under no circumstances.

    Yeah? He was pretty keen and fast on claiming that this was some kind of terrorist attack. Turns out, it was a guy with psychological issues - most probably, the official investigations aren't finished yet. What's wrong with keeping out speculations till you actually know what happend.

    I never claimed that Germany has no violence, crimes or other issues. But when you look at the last 30 years, and compare the numbers of islamic terrorism in Germany with for example France and the UK in particular, then it is fair to ask how it comes that we suffer less from it.

    I was today in a mosque, because I asked them for a Quaran. Pretty nice people I must say. And they have been willing to talk about everything and answering all my questions.

    Are there idiots in the Muslim communty? Yes.
    Are there criminals? Yes.
    Is Islam in a dire need of a modernisation and peacefull reformation? Yes.
    Should we assume that all Musilms and Islam as a whole is everywhere the same? No.

    Our biggest weapon and advantage, as democracies is the fact that we can differentiate, that we can have discussions, that we can apply criticism and express critical thoughts.

    I mean com on! I can't be the only one who's seeing a problem that something like Munich immediately leads to knee-jerk it must be a muslim mindset. And any reasonable voice is kinda drowned before you even know what actually happend. Are we already so consumed by fear and stereotypes that we see the end of the western civilisation in everything that happens these days?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
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  3. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    History lesson:
    I can see a few errors in that map. For example while it shows crusades battles it only shows the battles after the crusaders reached their target.
    For example Portugal only exists as it is today because the first king of Portugal had a tiny piece of land in the north and only managed to conquer Lisboa (Lisbon) in 1147 because he managed to convince the crusaders from the Second Crusade to help him. After that the English, Flemish, French and German crusaders help the Portuguese against the moors and helped capture Santarém, Sintra, Almada, Palmela and Setúbal.
    I see no battles in that map in Portuguese territory.
    Also during the same crusade an army of Catalans, Leonese, Castilians and French crusaders with support from a Genoese–Pisan navy conquered the city of Almería. Then they conquered the kingdom of Valencia and Murcia. After that, Tortosa fell to Ramon Berenguer IV troops with the help of French, Anglo-Normans and Genoese crusaders. The year after that, Fraga, Lleida and Mequinenza were conquered.

    So just in the Iberian Peninsula there were many battles involving crusaders and yet those are not shown on the map.

    Ok now I will go away because I already bored all of you with this post... But hell, if I had to be bored in my history classes when I studied this then I sure am glad to see someone else bored from it :lmao:.
     
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  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    The problem with poplusim, at least the one you see in Europe right now, is that they offer simple solutions to highly complex problems, if they even offer any solutions at all - see Brexit, all the people that wanted to get out of the EU, have no plan how to do it and what to do after the Brexit despite the fact that they kinda worked for 20 years for it.
    We also see this right now in Germany with the AfD. Some of them made it into our German state parliaments. They havn't managed so far to offer any real solutions or to create a true opposition to the current leading parties.
     
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  5. The Lonesome Drifter

    The Lonesome Drifter First time out of the vault

    32
    Jul 16, 2016
    Im betting its a hindu/Christian extremist. don't make assumptions just because everything points to it!

    Simple solutions does not equal bad. Ever heard the saying ''Less is more''?

    Id much rather hear your critique of these solutions instead of entertaining us with comedians, comparing us to Nazis etc...

    Close the borders, kick out Islamists. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  6. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Right now it looks like it's a disturbed, bullied kid fascinated with killing sprees. Nothing religious.
    Have we all forgotten about "classic" spree killers?
     
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  7. The Lonesome Drifter

    The Lonesome Drifter First time out of the vault

    32
    Jul 16, 2016
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I know, nobody to blame but society and violent video games.
     
  9. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    A witness who was in the McDonald's restaurant said her son was in the bathroom with the gunman.
    "That's where he loaded his weapon," said Lauretta, who only wanted to be identified by her first name.
    She said she saw many young casualties.
    "I hear like an alarm and boom, boom, boom ... and he's still killing the children. The children were sitting to eat. They can't run."
    Lauretta said she heard the gunman say, "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic.
    "I know this because I'm Muslim. I hear this and I only cry," she said.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/23/europe/germany-munich-shooting/

    Theres a lot of conflicting information out right now. A few hours ago they were saying it was a Far-Right extremist/Neo-Nazi. Get your dick back in your pants, we don't have all the info yet.

    EDIT: As far as your strawman about me not caring about School Shootings; How is that at all relevant? Why would I bring up school shootings in America in a thread about Islam in Europe?
     
  10. Throatpunch

    Throatpunch Banned

    Apr 14, 2016
    I think we can all agree that it is a sad tragedy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
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  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    And I share that sentiment. But if we talk about a topic like terrorism and people, I am afraid that we have no other choice but to delve deeply in to it and that there are no simple solutions. Who knows? Maybe there might not even be solution at all. Even Mathematics, one of the most logic science knows problems that can't be solved.

    Sometimes you have no other choice but between bad and very bad.

    You can close borders. If that's effective or not, is a whole different question. The European Union has invested a lot in their borders and border controll. There is a certain point though, where you have to ask your self if it's simply not more cost effective, to well, help the refugees and immigrants instead of building walls, fences and surveilance that you have to maintain and actually operate with people. We easily forget that operating a large fleet in the mediterrian is extremly costly. A huge drain of resources. I also think that we should somehow look in to the reasons why people want to migrate to Europe. If it has economic reasons, then we must look how we can improve their situation at home, if possible. If it is about safety, we should look how we can make their situation more stable.

    The second point, kicking out Islamists. Well that sounds nice. I certainly agree with that. And that is what already happens in some individual cases where people who comit crimes, are send back, if possible.

    Point is. How do you know who's an islamist and who isn't? Sadly ... not everyone with a beard and wearing a white pyjama has to be a muslim. See the situation with the Sikh in the US, who have been in some instances attacked only because of their appearance. But they have absolutely no affiliation with Islam! And asking people, is also not the most reliable way, because well people can lie. And not everyone who's a muslim is an islamist, and not every islamist has to be a violent one and so on. Not to mention that we sadly have also islamists who are Germans and Europeans, where do you want to send them? Or people with legal papers? That's the whole problem. How do you seperate the bad apples from the good ones? And how do you do that, without the bad ones, infecting as well the good ones ... if you make laws that are to harsh.

    As long as people havn't comitted a crime, they can believe in what ever they want. If they want to believe that Hitler was the greatest statesman the earth has ever seen and that Nazis live in a hollow earth ... well, there is nothing I can do against their thoughts. Because you know as that popular German song goes, die Gedanken sind Frei - Thoughts are free.


    This is a very popular German song and it is also a pretty old song. And it couldn't be closer to the truth. Beacuse even extremists and idiots, have their thoughts. And unless someone has a 100% secure way to check what people think I am fraid I have to say that we won't have easy solutions to extremism. Be it from Moslems or crazy people like Brevik.

    See, it's not like I don't recognize the danger that is coming from todays Islam. I think that as religion, it has serious problems. If it would be a person, I would call it a split personality. But sadly, you can treat Islam like a person and sending him to a psychologist. Hence why I said, if it sounds simple ... it's most probably the wrong solution for this problem. That's actually one way to know that it is a wrong solution.

    Do you really, I mean REALLY want to live in a society where it becomes about suspicion, where fear controlls our decisions and where everything that even resembles a muslim or islamist is seen as danger? I am not sure if that would be really so great in the end. See the Sikh movement.

    Dude, that's so 90s. Get with the times. If you want to kill someone, you need a political agenda. Killing people beacuse of mental issues. Unless you want to be the hippster under killers.

    Because you simply sound like one of those people that have nothing else in mind but,

    HOW CAN I BLAME MUSLIMS!
    HOW CAN I BLAME MUSLIMS!
    HOW CAN I BLAME MUSLIMS!
    HOW CAN I BLAME MUSLIMS!
    HOW CAN I BLAME MUSLIMS!
    DAMN IT WASN'T A MUSLIM!
    BUT HOW CAN I STILL BLAME MUSLIMS!

    It's like your brain is on a loop. Something happens in Germany, and EMIDIATELY you have to bring it in as argument. You can't even wait 24 hours to check who's behind it, and why they did it.

    You know what's really funny? Our right wing party the AfD was getting crazy tweeting for the last 24 hours. Some of them blame Merkel, some others the borders and immigrants and the AfD guy for Bavaria in Munich, even blamed Muslims and terrorism with his tweet. He later removed his tweet when the police released the informations that it was most probably not politcaly motivated and from a guy born in Germany. But, heh you can't really deleate something on the internet. Luckily. So yeah ... the good thing is, that it shows how terrorists and the AfD are made for each other. Sometimes I get the feeling like they have some kind of secret agreement and meetings ...
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  12. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    This will be hilarious in the next century anyway.
    https://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/Publications/Files/key_findings_WPP_2015.pdf
    World population in 2100 estimated by UN: 11.2 billion. That's 3.8 billion more than now, with 3.2 billion growth estimated solely in Africa since average fertility in other continents is much lower than in Africa. Sooner or later our immigration policy has to change anyway, it's unsustainable in long run.
     
  13. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    Doesn't matter. If Europeans/Americans aren't constantly whipping themselves on the back and crying "sorry" as they let they're countries get invaded by hordes of migrants they might get called racists. I'd much rather get thrown off a roof for my sexuality than have the absolutely horrific experience of having someone call me a racist.
    He had moslem parents, a dual Iranian-Geman citizenship and grew up in a poor neighbor filled with other moslems.
    ISIS or not stuff like this is further proof that Europe's little experiment with multiculturalism has failed. If you import the Middle East you import the Middle East's problems.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  14. olestra

    olestra Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    300
    Mar 26, 2016
    If moslem is a muslim, Geman must mean gay man?

    I'll go check with /pol/. I'm guessing I'm right.
     
  15. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    The Nazis are probably the most famous example of populism run amok, but sure I'll use your example as well, the communists blamed the bourgeois for all their nation's problems and persecuted them to varying degrees. The Jacobins also used populist tactics to start La Terreur and Caesar used them to overthrow the Republic.
    I'm a little confused as to why you're defending populism, I'm fairly sure it's thought of as political exploitation by most everyone.
    There's always been an erotic Nazi fetish, have you seen their uniforms? That shit screams dominance.

    (By the way, you still haven't answered my question. Are you this Lonesome Drifter as well or is it just a coincidence that you both used similar names?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
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  16. Vergil

    Vergil Banned

    Jul 8, 2014
    [INCOHERENT GIBBERISH INTENSIFIES]
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well if you can believe scientists this won't be the only issue. If global warming continues in 100 years, we will have also refugees from Spain, Italy, Turkey and many more.
    We are looking at billions of people here ... I am curious how future generations will deal with those issues. I mean that's some biblical shit ...
     
  18. olestra

    olestra Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    300
    Mar 26, 2016
    Gibberish? Ok, let's talk gibberish. You're supposedly American. I'm listening to some guy say "moslem" over and over again like it's still standard English. You sound like some old goat coming to us from a long term care facility.
     
  19. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    I'm pretty sure Moslem is just as correct as Muslim.
     
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  20. olestra

    olestra Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    300
    Mar 26, 2016
    Oh. It's still normal some places? So it's like some Napoleon Dynamite-like bubble thing?
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1