Krai Mira: Work in Progress MMO

[Brother None]

By the way, a game's budget is very much tied to its quality.

Your arguments on indies are really frustrating. Mostly because you are completely ignoring that indie and AAA industries are separate production points that do not - I repeat do not - compete directly and should thus not be compared directly.

Indie gaming brings a different experience than AAA gaming, either by experimental innovative design (like Narbacular Drop or Mount & Blade) or by reviving old-school gameplay for those that like it (like the Spiderweb games or Eschalon: Book I) or by reviving design principles that AAA gaming chose to shed (like Age of Decadence).

I'm sorry, but it's really ignorant to then sit around and pretend that indie games are inferior because of lower-end graphics or smaller budgets. They're "inferior" in the same way experimental film is "inferior" to Hollywood film. But the thing is, nobody is silly enough to make that comparison, because the productions serve different purposes and different audience.

I mean.

Duh.

 

[Paladin Solo]

By the way, a game's budget is very much tied to its quality.

And yet, plenty of low-budget games are better than high-budget ones. I suppose if all you want in a game is sweet graphics and choice actors, then you would disagree.

 

[Black]

And low budget films are inferior to Bay's films that are "worth" millions of $.
Yeah, right.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I'd rather play Bethesda's Fallout 3 than this: no matter how bad of a Fallout game it will be, it'll still be a AAA-class title with infinitely better graphics and slightly more advanced gameplay options than the ones listed above.

When you write this it sounds like you're saying you'd rather play FINO just because it's being produced by a "AAA" studio. I really hope you don't mean that, because the size of the producer is a horrible reason for choosing one game over another - primarly because there's little or no direct correlation between big budget and quality. Especially in these days of console dominance; especially when you consider the long-term quality of a game over the short-term quality.

Personally I think Krai Mira's graphics fulfill the correct purpose of a game's graphics better than FINO's, even if they're not as flashy - that purpose being to allow the player to imagine the reality of the events and environment of the game's universe.

 

[Ranne]

Indie gaming brings a different experience than AAA gaming, either by experimental innovative design (like Narbacular Drop or Mount & Blade) or by reviving old-school gameplay for those that like it (like the Spiderweb games or Eschalon: Book I) or by reviving design principles that AAA gaming chose to shed (like Age of Decadence).

Sorry, got to go for today so can't elaborate on that in detail. Basically, while it is true in some cases, the vast (I do mean vast) majority of low-budget games I played were neither innovative nor anything that much different from high-budget titles. Could you provide with some actual examples of low-budget games that outperform AAA titles on most counts, not on a single somewhat innovative feature while being inferior in all other respects? Thanks.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Could you provide with some actual examples of low-budget games that outperform AAA titles on most counts

When you're talking about RPGs I'd name the Avernum series and the Geneforge series from Spiderweb, and Eschalon Book I from Basilisk right off the top of my head. They're both vastly superior to, say, NWN. I mean, the graphics of NWN are atrocious, and the official campaign was a joke. If not for some of the excellent user-made content, it would be a complete waste. I haven't played NWN2, but I hear plenty of complaining about it.

Avernum, Geneforge, and Eschalon have better content where it counts.

Just like Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 will have better content than FINO.

 

[Brother None]

Could you provide with some actual examples of low-budget games that outperform AAA titles on most counts, not on a single somewhat innovative feature while being inferior in all other respects? Thanks.

It's not the purpose of independent games to outperform AAA games on most counts, it is their purpose to offer an experience that AAA games do not.

- Narbacular Drop offers innovative puzzle gameplay no other game had before
- Mount & Blade offers innovative combat schemes coupled with Pirates! gameplay unlike any other game, ever
- Spiderweb and Basilisk games both offer a gander back to classic mid-90's RPG gameplay that AAA RPG makers just don't offer
- Age of Decadence (and others) hope to revive the Troika design school which AAA RPG production abandoned

Yes, there's a lot of crappy indies out there. There's a lot of indies that don't offer anything new and instead just copy AAA games, except that they're lower quality. Those indies suck, and they're useless.

But your contention continues to be that indies should for some reason compete with AAA games on the same grounds. It's not that complex, the independent gaming market is a different market from the AAA market. It is useless for consumers to compare AAA games to independent games directly.

For a large part of the gaming consumption base independent games are unplayable because they look outdated. Fine, but they're simply not relevant to independent gaming. They're not the target market for, say, Spiderweb.

Instead, Spiderweb offers a unique RPG experience that AAA gaming long since abandoned, and has a market for that that can not be satiated by the AAA market.

That's the function of independent gaming. Period.

Now honestly, what is it you're not getting? You continue to roll in this nonsense of gaming budgets, design or quality as some kind of absolute, even though it's not remotely about that.

 

[Bodybag]

Not to mention all of the now AAA titles that started out as indie titles and have basically only changed their graphics while leaving the core gameplay intact (Counterstrike)

To name a better example. 2007 overall game of the year and most innovative game of the year Portal was basically Narbacular Drop with jumping. Narbacular Drop being the indie game which Valve found, hiring the game's developers.

Portal's gameplay was a good enough hook but let's be honest here - it was the writing that won all those awards.

---

As for indie MMOs, I'd have to say that Mortal Online beats this Russian project like they caught it stealing (from Fallout).

 

[Eyenixon]

Could you provide with some actual examples of low-budget games that outperform AAA titles on most counts, not on a single somewhat innovative feature while being inferior in all other respects? Thanks.

I can't believe you. Back in the 80s when Atari and Intellivision were busy sucking up money with crappy products people like Richard Garriot were selling Akalabeth in ziplock baggies while SirTech hammered away with barely any budget at genre defining titles like Wizardry.
These games were all far above most games of their time.
Popular games such as Counter-Strike were all from people who didn't have a million bucks.

This industry was founded and defined by the people that had little money and saw more interest in creating things than profiting off of it. Even the Odyssey's early stages were just a few prototypes in Ron Bradford's basement.

Come on, give us something a bit more challenging than just asking for examples, when it comes to low budget gaming, the PC is heaven.

Just ask the folks who made Serious Sam or the guys behind Sierra's first foray into the gaming industry.

 

[Brother None]

Portal's gameplay was a good enough hook but let's be honest here - it was the writing that won all those awards.

The story won heaps of gameplay innovation awards.

Uh...
...huh.

 

[Eyenixon]

Portal's gameplay was a good enough hook but let's be honest here - it was the writing that won all those awards.

The story won heaps of gameplay innovation awards.

Uh...
...huh.

I'm pretty sure Portal's writing can be condensed into one page. It was filled with well written humorous quips sure, but I can't remember those, all I can remember is falling through holes and propelling myself across a room over a shield wall.

It's a fun puzzle game, I'm just surprised that people think a 3D puzzle game is "revolutionary".

 

[Brother None]

I'm pretty sure Portal's writing can be condensed into one page. It was filled with well written humorous quips sure, but I can't remember those, all I can remember is falling through holes and propelling myself across a room over a shield wall.

It's a fun puzzle game, I'm just surprised that people think a 3D puzzle game is "revolutionary".

It's not the 3D puzzle game people though revolutionary, it was the combination of FP"S" and puzzle gaming action. Other than Narbacular Drop, I can't remember it being done before.

And no, you shouldn't ignore the story, it won a lot of awards as well. It had that quirky old humour we mostly know from adventure games. Not complex, of course not, but it worked very well - from what I know (still waiting for my copy to file through).

 

[Eyenixon]

Yeah, I don't know where those awards came from but that's just one more notch in my belt tallying up how many of these rewards are aimlessly thrown around.

 

[Mord_Sith]

Meh, I'm waiting for an MMO that builds on the concepts that are built into the text based browser game Battlemaster and makes a world that the players have a say in where the lines in the sand are drawn rather than uselessly flailing at the wall because 'it's phun to grynd!'

That's what I'm also hoping for in the 40K MMO with army based politics where you're attached to an army, if you freelance you better be good or you're gonna be dead type of scenario, and if you're good you're likely to get conscripted/recruited (Depending on the race) into player controlled armies where you can progress through battle to either lead in the army or create your own to lead in the future when you have high enough standing in your faction.

Of course the army cannot be populated -ONLY- by players, that's where the NPCs come in, but that kind of recruiting, along with equipment and transport must be picked up by the commander of the army as well as clearance from higher in the command chain to assault the world and whom their enemy is, or they could go rogue and decide whom they choose to attack...

ANYWAYS, you guys gotta stop gearing me up like this, I get way too worked up brainstorming then I hit the crescendo and come crashing down when I realize that a game like that is never going to come about in the current market.

 

[Bodybag]

Portal's gameplay was a good enough hook but let's be honest here - it was the writing that won all those awards.

The story won heaps of gameplay innovation awards.

Uh...
...huh.

Nice strawman by strained extrapolation, MISTER. The gameplay was unique to be sure, but what practially everyone LOVED was the writing (not the same as the story, of which there's very little, INCIDENTALLY). Did we even play the same game here?

Not complex, of course not, but it worked very well - from what I know (still waiting for my copy to file through).

Oh, nevermind Maybe someday I'll learn to stop arguing with your psychic reviews and just insist that you first play the game in question before EVEN beginning to discuss it with me.

Here's a sample of the writer's previous material.

 

[Brother None]

Nice strawman by strained extrapolation, MISTER. The gameplay was unique to be sure, but what practially everyone LOVED was the writing (not the same as the story, of which there's very little, INCIDENTALLY).

Hmmm. Perhaps you should read more carefully. Here's what I said:
To name a better example. 2007 overall game of the year and most innovative game of the year Portal was basically Narbacular Drop with jumping.

Portal's gameplay was a good enough hook but let's be honest here - it was the writing that won all those awards.

I explicitly mentioned two kinds of awards. "GotY" and "most innovative GotY". You then say it was the writing that won "all those" awards.

Please explain to me how any confusion would be my fault, at this point.

Maybe someday I'll learn to stop arguing with your psychic reviews and just insist that you first play the game in question before EVEN beginning to discuss it with me.

That would be true if we were discussing the game. We're not. We're discussing its critical reception.

 

[welsh]

Am I the only one that thinks this game looks fantastic? (at least judged by screenshots)

Nope- I think it looks pretty cool too.

 

[Bodybag]

So Most Innovative GOTY = heaps of gameplay innovation awards? We can do this dance all day BN.


OR


you can consider that JUST MAYBE the quality of the writing in a 5 hour puzzle game was of a high enough caliber to color people's opinions enough to favor it over a wide range of competition.

Once you play the game I have every faith that even you will agree with me on this one. Until you do I'm not going to argue with you (any more!) about what made it great.

 

[Brother None]

you can consider that JUST MAYBE the quality of the writing in a 5 hour puzzle game was of a high enough caliber to color people's opinions enough to favor it over a wide range of competition.

I agree. It got many GotY awards thanks to its writing.

I'm pretty sceptical about the quality of game journalism, but even I'm not sceptical enough to believe it won most if any "gameplay innovation" awards based on its writing. Sorry.

Until you do I'm not going to argue with you (any more!) about what made it great.

That's not what anyone was or is arguing about.

 

[Sarla]

Indie gaming brings a different experience than AAA gaming, either by experimental innovative design (like Narbacular Drop or Mount & Blade) or by reviving old-school gameplay for those that like it (like the Spiderweb games or Eschalon: Book I) or by reviving design principles that AAA gaming chose to shed (like Age of Decadence).

Sorry, got to go for today so can't elaborate on that in detail. Basically, while it is true in some cases, the vast (I do mean vast) majority of low-budget games I played were neither innovative nor anything that much different from high-budget titles. Could you provide with some actual examples of low-budget games that outperform AAA titles on most counts, not on a single somewhat innovative feature while being inferior in all other respects? Thanks.

Tabula Rasa spent 100million and its a total flop.



I think your argument for AAA over low budget games thus far is pretty weak.

I look for the low budget games and them quite entertaining and end up spending more hours playing them over AAA as do many other people.