Dr Fallout
Centurion
Troops on the ground, bombs from the air...
Well, shit in the Middle East, shit in the Middle East never changes.
Well, shit in the Middle East, shit in the Middle East never changes.
Left-wing Bias in Bethesda's Fallout Products
- Thread starter RetroAmerica
- Start date
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I would disagree, terror groups like IS and AQ, love their money and having power. Both are used to enforce their brand of religious interpretation on others. To perpetuate that terror groups do what they do because of imperialism is just naive and helps promote the victimised arab terrorist idea.
As I said before, its justified to be angry at the U.S. for collateral damage. But, how the fuck does that justify the murder of those who have nothing to do with the west or murdering someone simply because they adhere to a different interpretation of Islam?
The assumption that terrorists are victimised arabs loses practically all credibility when they commit the same atrocities they have said the west are doing.
As I said before, its justified to be angry at the U.S. for collateral damage. But, how the fuck does that justify the murder of those who have nothing to do with the west or murdering someone simply because they adhere to a different interpretation of Islam?
The assumption that terrorists are victimised arabs loses practically all credibility when they commit the same atrocities they have said the west are doing.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Nah, I'm just saying that bombs and soldiers on the ground changes nothing. I agree with you though, but you have to use that logic from their side too.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
My post was directed at peadar actually, who said that IS was a group that didn't believe in money and power, but run soley on hate fuel because of western failures.
Terrorists are just that, terrorists.
Terrorists are just that, terrorists.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Oh yeah I disagree there. That's what I've always stated, that the leaders of ISIS are in it for the power.
I am under no illusions that the key motivation for the Iraq war was about "freedom" or "WMDs". There was never any objective to stabilise the country. However, if you go into a country, remove the government and generally wreck the place, I think you have a moral obligation to rebuild. The Western Powers did nothing of the sort, and pulled straight out when things started to get too expensive, leaving the power vacuum that led to the formation of IS.
Oh of course they love money and power, I never said otherwise. It's not their primary motivation though, like it was for Hussein, Gadaffi, Mubarak or Assad. It makes them far harder, probably impossible, to negotiate with.
I'm not trying to reduce terrorism to a single cause, my entire post was about how it is wrong to take a simplistic view. It's a complex combination of factors, including Wahabiist bile coming from Saudi Arabia. However, a major cause of radicalisation is because people have seen Western bombs falling on their countries, killing their friends and families. Western soldiers committing atrocities in Abu Ghraib, or torture and internment at Guantanamo Bay. It's far easier for terrorist organisations to spread their narrative of a Western attack on Islam when that's what people see, instead of Western people funding humanitarian efforts, and making their lives better. There is a reason the vast majority of terrorists come from countries that the West has attacked, instead of say, Indonesia, Albania, or home-grown attackers, who are far in the minority.
I never, ever, ever said it was justified. Terrorism makes me sick. I am just outlining the reasons I understand for people becoming radicalised. If people in the Middle East don't associate the West with the bombs that keep killing their families, they will be less likely to join the terrorists, no matter how unjustified and evil a choice detonating a car bomb in a marketplace might be.
The leaders, maybe, but the footsoldiers? The people who blow themselves up? Who put their lives on the line in combat? They're not doing it for money and power, they're doing it out of hatred and religious fervour. There will always be people who want money and power. We're ever going to be able to kill them all with drones. The solution is to starve them of recruits foolish enough, deluded enough, or hate-filled enough to give up their lives to hurt their perceived enemies. By helping to build better, more equal, more stable countries for them to live in.
A bit like the long-term solution to drug dealing isn't to kill or imprison the people dealing drugs, because someone will always move in to take their place, so long as the market is there. The solution is to make it so young, socially disadvantaged people have options other than drug dealing, and to address the social problems that lead to the widespread use of illegal drugs.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
peadar
Joining murderers because of a grievance, no matter how bad, is BULLSHIT.
Sectarian violence in the ME, existed LONG, before western intervention, all the way to the days of Mohammads death and Ali feeling cheated.
These people effected by western bombs and airstrikes, knew WAY before, these terror groups, torture, rape, murder and brainwash.
Again, how can you feel sorry for those who take their abuse as an excuse to abuse others, especially those that have NOTHING, to do with the west?
The minute they became the same POS, that took away their loved ones, they get ZERO, sympathy from me. There is no 'understanding', this behavior.
If the ME doesn't like being abused, fight back through SOLIDARITY. Erase all this tribalism, religious, bullshit factionalism and UNITE.
Joining murderers because of a grievance, no matter how bad, is BULLSHIT.
Sectarian violence in the ME, existed LONG, before western intervention, all the way to the days of Mohammads death and Ali feeling cheated.
These people effected by western bombs and airstrikes, knew WAY before, these terror groups, torture, rape, murder and brainwash.
Again, how can you feel sorry for those who take their abuse as an excuse to abuse others, especially those that have NOTHING, to do with the west?
The minute they became the same POS, that took away their loved ones, they get ZERO, sympathy from me. There is no 'understanding', this behavior.
If the ME doesn't like being abused, fight back through SOLIDARITY. Erase all this tribalism, religious, bullshit factionalism and UNITE.
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Of course it's bullshit. I have never said otherwise. Just because it's bullshit doesn't mean people don't do it though. Bombs fall, kill some civilians at a wedding, make people angry, people make the stupid choice to join a terrorist group. Just because that decision is moronic and counterproductive on their part doesn't mean it wouldn't have been a good idea to find a solution other than a drone strike on a wedding.
And even if I would never condone their actions, I do have sympathy for many terrorists, many of whom are just gullible young men who have been manipulated by evil people into killing themselves for a bullshit cause. A lot of them could be considered victims of the leaders themselves.
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
They are not 'victims', because they CHOSE, to murder, rape, and torture.
As I said before, 'gullible', doesn't even enter the equation as, before tragedy befell them, they KNEW, what these terrorists were doing. It's not like they joined and was like, 'I didn't know you you would want me to murder shias'.
Just as I have to admit and realise we failed in the ME, I realise that NO, absolutely, NO, possible reason, no matter how HEINOUS, would justify murdering children and raping girls. To even try to 'understand', these murderous actions (I understand they are grieving, that collateral damage is a thing that needs to be stopped, but that's as far as my 'understanding', goes), is tantamount to justification.
The fact anyone, could consider them victims, of their leaders, or anything else for that matter, once they made their choice to join, is silly beyond measure.
As I said before, 'gullible', doesn't even enter the equation as, before tragedy befell them, they KNEW, what these terrorists were doing. It's not like they joined and was like, 'I didn't know you you would want me to murder shias'.
Just as I have to admit and realise we failed in the ME, I realise that NO, absolutely, NO, possible reason, no matter how HEINOUS, would justify murdering children and raping girls. To even try to 'understand', these murderous actions (I understand they are grieving, that collateral damage is a thing that needs to be stopped, but that's as far as my 'understanding', goes), is tantamount to justification.
The fact anyone, could consider them victims, of their leaders, or anything else for that matter, once they made their choice to join, is silly beyond measure.
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And I contend that they are. They have been brainwashed by very bad people. That does not mean that the people who are killed, raped and tortured are not victims to a far greater degree, but if we put our fingers in our ears and pretend that people become terrorists because they are fundamentally evil and there is nothing that can be done about it, we are never going to solve the problem.
They are gullible because they have bought into the lie that those murders were somehow justified. Because they think they are a threat, or because they have been brainwashed into thinking that their god will be angry with them if they don't. They are really not that far removed from, say, Americans who think we should carpet bomb the middle east indiscriminately because "Muslims are terrorists who hate our freedom".
I'm sorry, but I think you're the one who is being silly here. If we don't try and understand (not the same as justify or excuse) the reasons why these people became terrorists, we are never going to be able to come up with a coherent plan to stop more people becoming terrorists. By way of example, understanding that the Nazis rose to power because of underlying racial tensions dating back hundreds of years, combined with the punitive and embarrassing reparations demanded by the Treaty of Versailles which wrecked the German economy is completely different to justifying or excusing what they then proceeded to do. (Apologies for the Godwin. This thread was doing surprisingly well up until now!)
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The difference is though, not only did the Nazis hide a lot, of the bad shit they were doing, the bad shit they were upfront about, was a popular thing throughout the world at the time. This was when racism and eugenics was considered awesome and wonderful, uniformly agreed upon by the world. Anti-semitism was around long before that and all the rage.
So, everyone in the ME who has access to a damned textbook should have learned that grief is no reason to turn into a murderous bastard right?
I mean you did bring up the Nazis, a group that fell way back in 1945, and the tragic tale of Versaille.
IS and AQ and their ilk broadcast their lunacy over the web DAILY. They do not bother to hide it at all. Their activities are universally condemned by anyone who isn't a blathering idiot.
People already KNOW whats right and wrong. The west knows and the terrorists know. Both sides simply don't give a fuck. The ends justifies the means so to speak.
So if you have no sympathy for asshats that think drone strikes killing kids is ok, then OBVIOUSLY, you shouldn't have sympathy for morons who CHOOSE to let their grief mutate them into child murdering, girl raping, POS.
BTW, people become terrorists for many reasons. Western influence is merely one example, in a SEA of others.
Mahktab Al Khidamat, the pre-cursor to Al Qaeda, was founded by Abdul Azzam and Osama Bin Laden. After the soviets left, Azzam wanted to use MAKs resources to install a stable, islamic government in Afghanistan/avoid Fitna or civil war. OBL on the other hand, along with Ayman Al Zwahiri, a major financier of MAK, later to be OBLs second in command, wanted worldwide Jihad and depose governments and kill those who did not believe in their brand of Islam.
Is it that hard to admit your argument is flawed? We can stop de-railing the thread right now.
So, everyone in the ME who has access to a damned textbook should have learned that grief is no reason to turn into a murderous bastard right?
I mean you did bring up the Nazis, a group that fell way back in 1945, and the tragic tale of Versaille.
IS and AQ and their ilk broadcast their lunacy over the web DAILY. They do not bother to hide it at all. Their activities are universally condemned by anyone who isn't a blathering idiot.
People already KNOW whats right and wrong. The west knows and the terrorists know. Both sides simply don't give a fuck. The ends justifies the means so to speak.
So if you have no sympathy for asshats that think drone strikes killing kids is ok, then OBVIOUSLY, you shouldn't have sympathy for morons who CHOOSE to let their grief mutate them into child murdering, girl raping, POS.
BTW, people become terrorists for many reasons. Western influence is merely one example, in a SEA of others.
Mahktab Al Khidamat, the pre-cursor to Al Qaeda, was founded by Abdul Azzam and Osama Bin Laden. After the soviets left, Azzam wanted to use MAKs resources to install a stable, islamic government in Afghanistan/avoid Fitna or civil war. OBL on the other hand, along with Ayman Al Zwahiri, a major financier of MAK, later to be OBLs second in command, wanted worldwide Jihad and depose governments and kill those who did not believe in their brand of Islam.
Is it that hard to admit your argument is flawed? We can stop de-railing the thread right now.
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Just because the two situation aren't exactly alike doesn't mean they are incomparable. People did bad things, there were reasons, analysing the reasons doesn't mean you are making excuses or being an apologist for the bad things.
They don't see themselves as murderous bastards. They see themselves as defending their homeland and their religion. A lie that is much easier for terror groups to sell to them if their only interaction with the West is when we kill their families from the sky.
There are a lot of blathering idiots out there. A lot of people who are just plain ignorant as well. And just because someone is an idiot, or easily led, or desperate, or coerced doesn't mean they are destined to become terrorists.
Things aren't nearly that simple. Ask 100 people what is right and what is wrong and you will likely get at least 20 different answers. Is it right to risk the lives of soldiers in a ground campaign? Is torture justified to get information from people? Is it justified to attack civilians as a strategic objective (WW2 bombing campaigns on the Ruhr, for example)?
Both sides think they are doing the right thing. Even if it's obvious from our perspective, it may not be as obvious from the perspective of some vulnerable kid who gets brainwashed
I have sympathy for them as well. What's so hard to understand about the fact that I think a lot of people's objectionable views and actions are a result of them being a victim of their circumstances?
Yeah, Bin Laden was an utter shit. Probably mentally ill. From a rich background. It's also irrelevant. I didn't say that all terrorists were created by Western intervention, I said ham-fisted Western intervention, consisting of bombing and plundering without winning hearts and minds creates more terrorists. No matter what your feelings are about those who turn to terrorism, how understandable it is or otherwise, the fact of the matter is that when people are killed by western bombs, some of their friends and relatives are left easy targets for radicalisation.
I'd be interested to hear what your solution is. Bomb anyone who might be a terrorist. If anybody is radicalised as a result, bomb them as well. Keep bombing till everybody who might possibly ever turn to terrorism is dead?
DarkCorp
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
How can they not see themselves as the bad guys when they actively murder innocents or rape girls? The rape part is especially heinous as it serves no strategic or logistical goal. The victims have ZERO, to do with the west.
Murdering innocents, children especially. They might see it as ends JUSTIFIES the means but that doesn't make any of the 'ends', any less wrong, making them any less guilty.
Again, how is the taking of sex slaves, the murder of unarmed children, 'defending ones religion and country'? Is stealing a girls virginity some kind of masterstroke in tactical genius? Is blowing up some arab boy that has nothing to do with the west a strategic strike at the american pentagon?
If we were to assume that many of the 'moderate', rebel groups are just as radicalised, as some here think, then no amount of 'intervention', will end terrorism. The choice to leave behind archaic tribalism and religious divides is something that the people need to make for themselves.
Currently, all this fighting is a result of a geopolitical power struggle that leave the populace shit out of luck.
Murdering innocents, children especially. They might see it as ends JUSTIFIES the means but that doesn't make any of the 'ends', any less wrong, making them any less guilty.
Again, how is the taking of sex slaves, the murder of unarmed children, 'defending ones religion and country'? Is stealing a girls virginity some kind of masterstroke in tactical genius? Is blowing up some arab boy that has nothing to do with the west a strategic strike at the american pentagon?
If we were to assume that many of the 'moderate', rebel groups are just as radicalised, as some here think, then no amount of 'intervention', will end terrorism. The choice to leave behind archaic tribalism and religious divides is something that the people need to make for themselves.
Currently, all this fighting is a result of a geopolitical power struggle that leave the populace shit out of luck.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
So DarkCrop, you seem to be an expert on all this. What do you think we should do? Keep bombing them which as we know does nothing and if anything helps give their claims credibility, invasion which does the same thing or just ignore them?
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
Fuck's sake. Take your pointless political debates elsewhere please. Like say, the general discussion forum.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Pointless? Funny because last time I checked everything we did here was pointless. Your complaint is pointless, and you know what, take it to Mars.
Just saying, I hate it when people say something is pointless, because by that logic a lot of the things they do is pointless.
Khannis
Rebuilding America
I'll have to say, that is a fair point.
Earth
Vault Senior Citizen
Fair enough. I still think this debate should be taken somewhere else.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Oh I agree there then. Very much so. And I apologize for continuing and taking part.
Moosick
cats
One might think that we as a species would have gotten over the left-right reductionism by now but apparently even people on here can't distinguish between economic matters and ones concerning individual freedom.