Left-wing Bias in Bethesda's Fallout Products

Khannis said:
You know the american right-wing ACTUALLY pays people to falsify global warming reports? And they do their utmost to widen the wealth gap and fuck people over in the name of meritocracy?

But I do agree left-wing and right-wing are VERY subjective terms, and they can mean very different things in different countries, at different points in history. To a common discussion, I've come to the point that I don't even consider it a useful terminology in general, unless dealing with a very specific subject.
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Yes, I know, I was refering to the voter-base, not the power-core
I have a looot of things to say about the core of both camps, but a significant lot more about the right wing camp, but that's a big minefield I won't step into again. My involvement in internet political debates has been reduced to almost zero the past few years :D

Here's a neat lil sum up of my personal feelings about the right-wing, especially their relation to money: Humanity will never explore space, or colonize Mars, or build moon-bases - ever, ever ever ever. Why not? Because at the end of the day, we're gonna have to go to some bank, and take out a loan.
If we're colonizing space, because our world is dying, the bank will be all "hmmm, so... you're not planning to pay us back, is that it?" and you can throw all the sense, reason and logic at them you like "how can we, the planet is about to end, this is about survival of humanity, come WITH us - COME WITH US!!!"
the bank will be all "move locations? and who do you suppose will grant us the loan for that?"

And then we all just died.
Aliens will be puzzled at it for millions of years to come "what... so... all they had to do was to give - money - to themselves - and then flee their planet?"
"yup, seems like it."
"humans, paying humans, but they didn't have enough money... to pay themselves with... I don't get it."
"oh, they had the money, but they weren't entirely sure they would be able to pay all the rents in time."
"we're still talking about one species of organism demanding money from THE SAME species, and paying ITSELF right?"
"yes."
"and they failed?"
"to the bitter end."
 
Didn't the guy who wrote the tenpenny tower quest claim it was an allegory to the immigration invasion of london? I can't find a source, but I'm certain I read an article of it a while ago. You can help the "outsiders" in, but despite good intentions, not everything will end happily.

There was also another quest in FO4 where you rescue a guy from super muties who was trying to educate them and make them more civilized with human culture. In the end, they kidnapped him.
 
I am also abandoning this thread.
Look upon the glorious things I have previously posted in this thread and despair, because you will not see their like again.
 
alright,i'm gonna sound like a cyber libertarian well off nerd,but i always seen F1 and 2 and even new vegas as libertarian games. New Vegas,imoh,does supports a liberatarian story path (mr house,yes man),fallout is the only game i know in which one of the main enemies is the american government (the enclave is basically the result of a warlike big governement). Also those games give you the freedom to do what you think is right,not imposing you a standart morality (that's why i'm not a huge fan of karma)
 
DarkCorp said:
It's a game. Any 'percieved', political context is purely subjective on the part of the player. I save my political views for actual politics, not game fiction.
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I think it's always worth considering the messages sent by fiction (both the intentional and the unintentional) not only because it helps you avoid normalizing bad ideas (e.g. "military intervention solves all problems"), but also because it's worth pointing out those unintentional messages that hurt some people's enjoyment of whatever it is. By all means, if you want to offend somebody go right ahead and do it, but you probably don't want to accidentally convince people that you're an asshole or that what you made isn't for them (particularly in AAA games which are already pretty badly market-constricted.)

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. Call of Juarez: the Cartel is an awful game, but it's awful both in falling short of what it intended and in unintended ways. There's an achievement in the game "Bad Guy" for killing 40 enemies on the "Gang Bang" level. Notable about this level is that all of the enemies are black, and that this is the only level in which black antagonists appear (the primary enemies in the story are Mexican drug cartels). This is also the only level where you get an achievement for killing a certain number of enemies. If someone had pointed out to the developers "Hey, you're kind of giving an achievement for killing the only black people in your game, that's kind of gross" they probably would have made a different achievement (achieve a certain accuracy rating, completion time, avoid damage, find the 8 knicknacks hidden in the level or whatever), and you would improve the game for some people and hurt no one else (the achievement in question is trivial since there are way more than 40 enemies).
 
Walpknut said:
I think he is just joking.
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(Just decided to check back in) Nope.

peadar87 said:
The-Artist-64 said:
Yep, I'm abandoning this thread. Getting really sick of the liberals here.
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Dude, you don't have to agree with us, but going off in a huff because of the mere existence of an opposing viewpoint? Really?
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I am a proud supporter of free speech- you can say what you want to say. However, when it's clear that speaking my mind would result in an all-out attack on me, I'd rather not go in and debate on the forum.
 
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Fallout has always been left wing. I literally can't remember anything in the older Fallout games or NV that wasn't heavily geared toward the left side of the political spectrum. The entire premise of the series is the consequences of the foreign policy pracitced by conservatives in the US ffs.
 
I found this discussion title weird because, honestly, I'd always found Bethesda's storytelling strangely right-wing. Kind of along the lines of what Walpknut was saying: how Bethesda seems to idolise the '50s world. My other problem is Liberty Prime and the presentation of the Brotherhood of Steel. I know LP is supposed to be ironic, but the whole ending to Fallout 3 feels like one big 'MURICA FUCK YEAH! The emphasis on patriotic pre-war stuff in DC also made me feel Bethesda had a more jingoistic "God Bless America" feeling to it. You were made to feel sad at the destruction and decay of the Downtown DC area, with you even having quests to find the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln's Head for the Lincoln Memorial. Bethesda asks you to feel sad, not for the people (who I always felt sorry for when playing Fallout and Fallout 2) but for the nation of America itself dying. How people feel about that is of course, their own opinion, but considering what America had become by 2077, it felt pretty disingenuous, at least to me.

With a thread like this, I guess all we can say is, keep things civil.
 
There's no nice way around this so I might as well be blunt.
My brain tunes out every said after "left-wing bias" or "liberal media."
I'm not sure exactly what that's supposed to mean. That liberals have a pushy propaganda campaign or something?
I think stating such opinions actually betrays a political bias by the people who have to use those code words, not in whatever they're actually criticizing.

The-Artist-64 said:
Yep, I'm abandoning this thread. Getting really sick of the liberals here.
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Okay, this is the exact shit I'm talking about.
American conservatives, by and large, act like an entrenched minority that's under siege from the da libruls.
Nevermind, that American society is about farther right than the rest of the developed world. Nevermind, that they basically always get their way. They're quick to demonize liberals as "libtards" or whatever else.

I don't remember the last time I saw anybody call the average Republican a closeted bigot and reactionary. Or the last time that they were constantly demonized for being retards. It doesn't happen. And it's not a coincidence. The right hates Obama way more than he could ever possibly hate them back. He's their goddamn archenemy.
 
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Yeah, "liberal"s become a dirty word in America. It's very strange considering America was built on fairly liberal values. People in Britain are trying to make it a thing here too.

Also, on comscar's point about the tennpeny tower quest being an allegory of the "invasion of London". As someone who lives in London I have little idea about what that's supposed to mean. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that if you welcome people in with open arms they'll all immediately kill you. There are problems with immigration, of course there are, but I've been hearing a lot of weird stories of people in America saying London is a dystopian no-go zone. I walk around London wherever I want at whatever time I want and I have never been mugged, stabbed, raped or shot.

EDIT: Also, isn't that more of a right-wing allegory anyway? That more immigration will lead to fracturing of society and a dissolution in national cultural and social unity?
 
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DVL said:
There's no nice way around this so I might as well be blunt.
My brain tunes out every said after "left-wing bias" or "liberal media."
I'm not sure exactly what that's supposed to mean. That liberals have a pushy propaganda campaign or something?
I think stating such opinions actually betrays a political bias by the people who have to use those code words, not in whatever they're actually criticizing.

The-Artist-64 said:
Yep, I'm abandoning this thread. Getting really sick of the liberals here.
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Okay, this is the exact shit I'm talking about.
American conservatives, by and large, act like an entrenched minority that's under siege from the da libruls.
Nevermind, that American society is about farther right than the rest of the developed world. Nevermind, that they basically always get their way. They're quick to demonize liberals as "libtards" or whatever else.

I don't remember the last time I saw anybody call the average Republican a closeted bigot and reactionary. Or the last time that they were constantly demonized for being retards. It doesn't happen. And it's not a coincidence. The right hates Obama way more than he could ever possibly hate them back. He's their goddamn archenemy.
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I could argue so much against this, but I have not the energy nor the confidence to do so. I'm a conservative, and I'm willing to listen to what others have to say. I'd argue that what you're doing, right here, is 'demonizing' me.

Such is the way of things, I suppose. I knew that this would happen if I posted on this thread, and look what happened. I guess it serves me right to bring up politics.
 
Honestly, I think it's impossible for a large developer to have a game with guns in America and not have it become 'murica Fuck Yeah.
It's not intentionally right-wing, but it's such an ingrained part of American culture that you can't get away from it.
Okay, maybe Valve wouldn't.
 
The-Artist-64 said:
DVL said:
There's no nice way around this so I might as well be blunt.
My brain tunes out every said after "left-wing bias" or "liberal media."
I'm not sure exactly what that's supposed to mean. That liberals have a pushy propaganda campaign or something?
I think stating such opinions actually betrays a political bias by the people who have to use those code words, not in whatever they're actually criticizing.

The-Artist-64 said:
Yep, I'm abandoning this thread. Getting really sick of the liberals here.
Click to expand...

Okay, this is the exact shit I'm talking about.
American conservatives, by and large, act like an entrenched minority that's under siege from the da libruls.
Nevermind, that American society is about farther right than the rest of the developed world. Nevermind, that they basically always get their way. They're quick to demonize liberals as "libtards" or whatever else.

I don't remember the last time I saw anybody call the average Republican a closeted bigot and reactionary. Or the last time that they were constantly demonized for being retards. It doesn't happen. And it's not a coincidence. The right hates Obama way more than he could ever possibly hate them back. He's their goddamn archenemy.
Click to expand...
I could argue so much against this, but I have not the energy nor the confidence to do so. I'm a conservative, and I'm willing to listen to what others have to say. I'd argue that what you're doing, right here, is 'demonizing' me.

Such is the way of things, I suppose. I knew that this would happen if I posted on this thread, and look what happened. I guess it serves me right to bring up politics.
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Here's the thing. I'm liberal in the sense that, if you had to put me on a nice diagrammed chart or color code me, that's where somebody else would put me. I'm not a democrat. I don't even think of Fallout on that level and never got any leftist or right wing vibe from it. I don't need to defend other liberals for their views or agree with them because I have a club membership. I don't need to feel any sort of kinship with them.

But you're the one throwing up his arms in disgust at the "liberal" opinions in the thread. And "conservative" is something you actively self-identify as.
So my characterization is sweeping, broad and unfair. Congratulations on doing nothing to dissuade me of it.

If I don't think global warming is a hoax, it's not because I'm passionate about science or take the word of scientists more seriously than that of politicians. Or that I'm seriously concerned about its impact on agriculture, our infrastructure or my impression of weather patterns (i.e. crazy droughts in California while that water gets dumped elsewhere). No, it's because I'm a liberal. And I have an agenda. And I'm pushing it on you. I like the idea of fiscal responsibility, in theory but I think that Republicans and right-wing libertarians are a bunch of pseudointellectual yahoos, if not outright hyprocrites.

So, by default, that makes me a libtard. I'm so sick of that level of dialogue in American politics. And I wish it'd grow up. As I stated, Republicans don't hate Obama for anything he's done. They just hate him because he's the enemy.
 
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I don't think it helped the OP's point that they construed kindness and charity with liberalism. Seems pretty unfair to religious charities and the millions of compassionate people in this world who would describe themselves as "conservative".

Also, the Tenpenny Tower story was a racism one, not a rich vs poor one. I'm pretty sure the ghouls say they have the caps, hence why they were so pissy about it. If people are gonna argue that being anti-racist is a liberal trait then I'm sorry but I'm not going to bother discussing that.

If Bethesda were "liberals" in the political-correctness-gone-mad sense I think the OP is talking about, then they wouldn't have removed the ability to roleplay as a homosexual character and force you to start in a traditional 1950s nuclear family.
 
Earth said:
I found this discussion title weird because, honestly, I'd always found Bethesda's storytelling strangely right-wing. Kind of along the lines of what Walpknut was saying: how Bethesda seems to idolise the '50s world. My other problem is Liberty Prime and the presentation of the Brotherhood of Steel. I know LP is supposed to be ironic, but the whole ending to Fallout 3 feels like one big 'MURICA FUCK YEAH! The emphasis on patriotic pre-war stuff in DC also made me feel Bethesda had a more jingoistic "God Bless America" feeling to it. You were made to feel sad at the destruction and decay of the Downtown DC area, with you even having quests to find the Declaration of Independence and Lincoln's Head for the Lincoln Memorial. Bethesda asks you to feel sad, not for the people (who I always felt sorry for when playing Fallout and Fallout 2) but for the nation of America itself dying. How people feel about that is of course, their own opinion, but considering what America had become by 2077, it felt pretty disingenuous, at least to me.

With a thread like this, I guess all we can say is, keep things civil.
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If I may wax philosophical for a moment on the tonal shift; I think that this is because the older games were made in the 90's when American Super Power was being questioned in a post Cold War world while the Beth ones were made in a post 9-11 endless war malaise that is the beginning of the slow decline of American super power and the shift to a multi polar world. P.S. I'm in a spice trance so sorry for the stream of conscious type dribble I type.
 
Beth's left wing stuff is much more deeper and less obvious to most people and it's highly annoying.
 
Just hearing some of the ideas here shows clear bias. The left is always the savior of the world while the right is all about baby murder. Repubs lie and fearmonger but dems always tell the truth.

Considering we all like Fallout and hate the idea of black and white, its disappointment.

Repubs vary GREATLY. I for example, don't think socialism, as in government reforms that WORK, is a bad thing.

However, there is plenty of nutjobs in the left, which some lefties here clearly chose to ignore mentioning.

Just addressing healthcare to make it short, a country with 300 million cannot possibly adopt the same policy a country with 3x or more LESS, in population, has in the works.

Then, you need comprehensive reform on packaging deals like eliminating co pays, deciding which hospital visits are necessary (goddamn hypochondriacs), cost of specific services, balancing hospital cost with EMTALA, legal issues like which treatments can a patient afford and be recommended to by a doctor without the doctor getting sued later because he did not suggest a super-expensive, EXPERIMENTAL, treatment, making sure insurance companies don't fleece the hospital and government, making sure the government and hospitals don't fleece insurance companies through mismanagement, etc. The list is never ending.
 
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