Vanguardbr
First time out of the vault
It makes a lot of sense to see the Legion as the ultimate raider gang, never thought about that before.
Its even more flawed then the NCR!
Its even more flawed then the NCR!
Legion Appreciation Thread
- Thread starter Dr Fallout
- Start date
First time out of the vault
Name a raider group with widespread manufacturing, a political hierarchy and education.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Wow. Just wow... 'an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.' Yep, the Mafia sure is an empire.
Somehow I doubt every Legion commander is like Lanius. He's FAMOUS for his fucking brutality, BRUTALITY even the Legion sees as over-the-top. Frumentarii act as useful intelligence corps and can be seen as getting information from different settlements. Maybe because we never see a Legion settlement at peacetime? Key words, DURING CONQUESTS. You think every soldier is willing to kill when they're in peace time? War brings out the worst of people in many cases.
Legionaries learn combat and military self-reliance, not so much anything else unless needed. Umm, that's not the most likely scenarios. Otherwise all Frumentarii would be idiotic brutes. Most likely is that there is an administrative class that acts as advisers to the military governor. Also, why do all officers need to be brutes? They can be smart and cunning you know.
Here are some examples that DIDN'T fall apart, the US, the British, the French and pretty much tons of colonial powers.
Hit men squads. By working for their enemies and shooting their soldiers you can still disobey orders, if you do it while you're working for them.
Vanguardbr
First time out of the vault
The Legion!
Although its more like military hierarchy, and what education are you talking about? Their political and social conception are fucked up beyond all repairs, I wonder what education one would have in their lands.
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Had to have taught all those Tribals and their offspring English/Latin somehow.
Vanguardbr
First time out of the vault
NCR can do that as well, maybe even better. Not only that, as NCR also doesn't have slaving culture. The way they treat people outside their tribe just makes me want to kill every single legionary, so full of bullshit, like they are superior or something.
I mean, humanity just barely survived a nuclear war, the next step is to bring back slavery and crucifixions? Even the Master plan makes more sense to me then the Legion
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I'm not arguing whether or not the education provided from the NCR is better or not. I'm arguing that calling the Legion a group of raiders and nothing more is grossly inaccurate. Children are taught the common language, given a hardcore military education and a cause to fight for that they wholeheartedly believe in. The amount of Legion troops that fight because of loyalty to Caesar and the Legion is much higher than the amount doing the same for the NCR who are just there to get their pension. Also the NCR treats people outside of their jurisdiction like shit as well. They'll deny helping anyone unless they are promised annexation and sometimes they'll just strongarm their way into places. The NCR do the same aggressive expansion as the Legion, they're just more sneaky and manipulative about it.
Also It may be brutal but I tell you what it sure dissuades any would be raiders when the last guy to try and steal something's skeletal remains are staring at you on a cross.
Vanguardbr
First time out of the vault
They are raiders in a sense that there is no reliability in their social economical system, and they act in a quite pre-modern stile. As said by Mr. Iluminatti, a isolated place in Legion territory must be hell on earth, because the authority there has full powers over the people and there is nothing you can do about it. Legionarie wants to rape your daughter? You can only watch or end up in a cross like the degenerate you are.
Same way these cross reminds you that stealing is wrong, it also reminds you that you have absolute no political life or freedom, and that if you DARE to question the regime, thats where you will end. Constantly reminds you that Caesar commands who lives and who dies, doesn't really matter if its fair or not, your life depends on blindly accepting what a bald lunatic fuck says is correct. Its a big tribe at best, and it does compare to mafias and all that crap.
There are no raiders in legion territory because the legion is the only raider allowed to benefit itself from the work of the others. Is that real safety? No, you are not safe from the Legion. In fact, you are a hostage of the legion, all your work belongs to Caesar like it or not, everybody works to please the plans of one man that is building a society for himself, not thinking about what caused the great war in the first place, not thinking about the consequences of his bullshit and above all, not giving a fuck to the lives he is destroying in the process. They are just a bunch of fancy raiders in the end, leeching on people's work.
Never saw NCR treat people from the outside as bad as Legion does. Legion is borderline fascist with all that "degenerate" shit. And again, slaves.
Plus, I don't think that the NCR is any good, but when you look at Legion, NCR seems godlike. Same old world bullshit but less... lunatic maybe?
Izak
I Shot The ALBATROSS
The Legion is a brutal caesaropapism; all the Legionnaires are shit scared of breaking Caesars rules and morals not only because it'll carry retribution from other Legionnaires who find they've broken the rules but also because they're afraid they're sins will be carried on into the Roman equivalent of hell where they'll be anally raped by Mars for eternity. There'll still be a few non-believers who break the rules and abuse the peasantry but for the most part the legionnaires are either terrified of Caesar or have been sufficiently brainwashed by him.
Also most of the law's Legionnaires would be tempted to break are somewhat legal for them, there aren't going to be any rapes in Legion territory because there's a surplus of women slaves Etc.
Also most of the law's Legionnaires would be tempted to break are somewhat legal for them, there aren't going to be any rapes in Legion territory because there's a surplus of women slaves Etc.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
A lot of the anti legion arguments are formed on assumptions. One of the biggest is that the Legion has no laws back home and legionaries can rape your daughter without consequence. There's no basis for this other then the actions done ON ENEMIES. The NCR does it, the US did it, the FUCKING UN did it. Just because the Legion acts like normal soldiers, with no lying bullshit doesn't mean they do that all the time.
That is not what is being said.
The point that separation of powers exists in a republican government is specifically because there is a mistrust of any authority holding too much power. So what happens when some provincial governor somewhere does something? And mind you, the entire mindset of the Legion is that you are guilty until proven innocent.
The fact is that Lanius can kill a trader's pack Brahmin without consequence. Whether or not he's seen to be psychotic by the rest of the Legion doesn't matter. He's still implicitly in Caesar's favor. If you know what's good for you, you toe the party line and don't rock the boat, because you can get hung on a crucifix. Or lit on fire and thrown into a canyon. That isn't the kind of society that encourages free or open thought. In that sense, the Legion is only a few steps above North Korea.
Yes, the attraction of such power is that things get done. They just aren't just necessarily a good kind of done. The Legion is only relatively immune to corruption because it's younger and has one single and very active dictator. For the moment.
But if there's a major theme in NV, it's that political movements rarely keep to the spirit of a law for long. And few Legionaries even really know what the point of their laws are or where any of this Roman stuff even comes from.
And yeah, if you were wondering why Ulysses kept nattering on about history, that's why. He felt implicitly, if not intellectually, that this kind of ignorance was a kind of deep and flawed sickness. It deprives you of agency and leaves you open to manipulation.
The point that separation of powers exists in a republican government is specifically because there is a mistrust of any authority holding too much power. So what happens when some provincial governor somewhere does something? And mind you, the entire mindset of the Legion is that you are guilty until proven innocent.
The fact is that Lanius can kill a trader's pack Brahmin without consequence. Whether or not he's seen to be psychotic by the rest of the Legion doesn't matter. He's still implicitly in Caesar's favor. If you know what's good for you, you toe the party line and don't rock the boat, because you can get hung on a crucifix. Or lit on fire and thrown into a canyon. That isn't the kind of society that encourages free or open thought. In that sense, the Legion is only a few steps above North Korea.
Yes, the attraction of such power is that things get done. They just aren't just necessarily a good kind of done. The Legion is only relatively immune to corruption because it's younger and has one single and very active dictator. For the moment.
But if there's a major theme in NV, it's that political movements rarely keep to the spirit of a law for long. And few Legionaries even really know what the point of their laws are or where any of this Roman stuff even comes from.
And yeah, if you were wondering why Ulysses kept nattering on about history, that's why. He felt implicitly, if not intellectually, that this kind of ignorance was a kind of deep and flawed sickness. It deprives you of agency and leaves you open to manipulation.
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Dr Fallout
Centurion
Is that so bad? Innocent till proven guilt can work but not always, especially in chaotic regions, and the Mojave is very chaotic.
Actually it's because the trader is in every right to complain to Lanius however Lanius will... kill the trader. The only real sign of being favored by Caesar is because he's a great war leader. Hence it can be assumed that after the war Caesar will terminate him due to being not necessary and counter productive. That happens in the NCR to an extent... they're too weak and corrupt to follow it through though.
I can actually agree there. The Legion NEEDS an heir.
I can only say that is extremely contemptible. We use that rhetoric in a modern society. Rapport techniques by the FBI work better than simple straight-up torture. It's a justification that assumes that things just work out by being "tough." That's just empty machismo and it isn't an argument for anything. We invasively intrude upon personal lives to find terrorists and it really doesn't actually work that great.
It isn't an evidence-based way of looking at things. It presumes the existence of guilt then actively uses confirmation bias to justify it. That isn't a critical or intelligent way of doing anything.
What are you even trying to get at?
The point is that the Legion is authoritarian. If you don't get why that's a problem, you never will.
The law is functionally whatever the people in power say it is. None of the Legionaries can understand that their militaristic culture is only intended to be a temporary phase of Caesar's long term plans. They're innately bigoted, ignorant, narrow-minded and inclined to torture you to death over minor crimes. And in any case, it's Caesar's intention that his final government be as repressive as before, even if it isn't a militaristic one.
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Illuminati Confirmed!
Banned
Basically kidnapping children and indoctrinating them into being faithful soldiers of Caesar is a good thing? I'm pretty sure that they would have been taught english by their parents, and that the few latin phrases they learn as legionaries don't really constitute the knowledge of a language.
How is the zeal they fight with an argument for anything other than the severe indoctrination forced upon the children of the Legion?
Yes, the NCR can be assholes, but in no way does that justify the Legion being even worse.
People are fooled into seeing the Legion as civilized because Rome was civilized. Other than the odd latin phrase or title, the two have nothing in common. Legion is the Mongol horde of its time, just an army occupying a territory in which people pay them tribute to be left alone. A bunch of degenerate barbarians, I say!
Also, widespread manufacturing? You mean like the sharpened pieces of metal they mostly use for combat, the football gear they call armor, or the armor they take off their enemies, or the healing powder they prefer over stimpaks? There is no evidence of legion having any industrial capacities whatsoever. Why would they risk dealing with the Van Graffs to get energy weapons if they could have produced them themselves?
No, your belief that it does have civilian laws is an assumption. A poor one at that, since the legion mantra of "we are strong and they are weak, we are paragons of virtue and they are dissolute degenerate profligate whores" doesn't imply that they hold civilians in high regard. Even if Caesar would mind legionaries raping people's daughters, which I doubt, it's not like he would ever know about it happening. The system has a far greater potential for corruption than even the NCR bureaucracy.
Your assumption is flawed because a) You assume that Caesar actually gives a shit, which is possible although not very likely and b) You assume that Caesar is all-seeing and all-knowing which is definitely false since he can't be in every corner of his territory at the same time. Rather typical flaws found in the reasoning of all those who support totalitarian regimes, if I may notice.
Also, to bolster the assumption that legion civilians do not have to follow any rules other than "obey the Legion":
Fallout Wiki said:
Vanguardbr
First time out of the vault
This is another bad thing the Legion brings: peasantry. In NCR, workers are proletarians, that means A LOT politicaly speaking as it grants some rights and another historical role and conception of reality to the people. Other parts of the Wasteland, people are even more then proletarians, they are trully economically free, they work and build a world of their own with no one exploiting their labor.
In the Legion, everyone that is not legionarie is no more then a peasant. Legion literally walk backwards in history, its a huge historical retrocess tbh, even when considering the whole Wasteland situation.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Why is it an assumption? The Legion needs civilians to power it's army, it needs education to teach propaganda, it needs some manufacturing ability to get their weapons (they don't do a lot of weapon trading, apart from dealing with the Van Graffs. Also making energy weapons is beyond even the NCR) and so your assumption of no civilian laws has no real basis other then that the army acts... like an army in dealing with others. You know, looting, rape and murder. Every army has done that somewhat. Expecting differently is naive. That only implies they dislike their opponents civilians. Also let's look at Primm. If Primm was controlled by the NCR but the Legion won, instead of rape and death they were just put under control of Caesar watched over by Legion soldiers. I doubt these soldiers would start raping and killing with Caesar sitting not too far away, and their purpose is to protect. There's also no mention of rape and killing, which is mentioned in other endings. Ugh, you keep forgetting the damn Frumentarii. They act as great intelligence corps. Not if there are laws behind it that ensures corruption is destroyed.
a) Caesar cares about making his Roman empire. He needs civilians to do that and he knows that. b) Frumentarii. Everyone forgets them don't they? Remember we only see a small amount of them, making it fair game they can be in Legion cities.
NCR doesn't torture its enemies to death. In point of fact, there are laws preventing Boyd from assaulting a Legionary prisoner. And that's a hell lot more consideration than The Legion gives its enemies. Now she's a dirty cop, so she doesn't mind paying a freelancer to do the assaulting.
NCR citizens don't uniformly accept the faults of its governments as good. Cassidy doesn't. Boone doesn't. Hanlon doesn't. Dissenting opinions can exist without fear of corporeal reprisal. NCR's average citizen-soldier doesn't take slaves, doesn't rape or pillage. Hell, they have relief efforts in Freeside. And the woman in charge there is willing to fudge the rules just to give food provisions to non-NCR citizens. Their failings lie in their inability to live up to their high moral standards, not because they lack them.
Boone is actually very conscientious and highly moral. He doesn't believe that, but he is. He knows that people complain about the NCR, but will tell you that security was worse without the NCR. The evidence bears him out. Most citizens of the NCR share a similar idealism and naivity, but I hardly find that repugnant in itself. What was the worst crime of his wife? That she was prissy? That hardly merits a hanging.
I don't know what your point about the frumentarii is. That maybe they're a secret police? A gestapo?
Ultimately, they're going to take their orders from whoever is in charge and have no accountability.
NCR citizens don't uniformly accept the faults of its governments as good. Cassidy doesn't. Boone doesn't. Hanlon doesn't. Dissenting opinions can exist without fear of corporeal reprisal. NCR's average citizen-soldier doesn't take slaves, doesn't rape or pillage. Hell, they have relief efforts in Freeside. And the woman in charge there is willing to fudge the rules just to give food provisions to non-NCR citizens. Their failings lie in their inability to live up to their high moral standards, not because they lack them.
Boone is actually very conscientious and highly moral. He doesn't believe that, but he is. He knows that people complain about the NCR, but will tell you that security was worse without the NCR. The evidence bears him out. Most citizens of the NCR share a similar idealism and naivity, but I hardly find that repugnant in itself. What was the worst crime of his wife? That she was prissy? That hardly merits a hanging.
I don't know what your point about the frumentarii is. That maybe they're a secret police? A gestapo?
Ultimately, they're going to take their orders from whoever is in charge and have no accountability.
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Intellectual honesty. I actually find the idea of dirty cop amusing, in a noirish way.
You can't be a dirty cop in the Legion, because you have no such standards to violate to begin with. As I've already said, the Legion operates on guilty until proven innocent. (And the distinction is a bit hard to appreciate until you are slowly dying of thirst as a matter of standard practice.)
The man in charge can arbitrarily decide you weren't a competent enough military commander, and thus, be lit on fire and fucking dropped off a cliff. There is no such thing as an impartial code of law in the Legion. It is whatever mad whimsy has taken hold of your Glorious Leader at any given moment.
But then again, I can actually criticize the faults of a group of people instead of trying to view them in the most rose-tinted light.
People who like the Legion secretly like the idea of a repressive dictatorship. They think it's a jolly good idea.
You see when you point out that the President doesn't have term limits, I think it's a jolly good idea to have term limits instituted. You know, not invade them and enslave everybody.
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Watch out guys. We got a real intellectual here. He managed to actually look through the computer screen and do a psyche analysis of me despite having never met me. Some real crazy stuff.
EDIT: Have a like. You trying to imply me talking about the Legion in not black and white terms means I like oppressive dictatorships made me chuckle.