Legion Appreciation Thread

Divine right is a fine way to pass on a successorship. The next leader just needs a framework to govern from. He has to actually have a torch to pass. To be fair, I think we can basically assume there is no real succession law, with Lanius becoming next Caesar if Caesar dies mostly due to the fact he runs the military to be fair. That's how the old Roman Empire ran. I have the biggest legion? I'm Emperor, try and stop me.

However to note, the Wild Card nature of the Legion, being both very stable as it is right now but also potentially very hectic when it comes to it's future, makes it very interesting and appealing to me. The NCR is stale and boring and we know what's going to happen, but a lot choose it because it's a more well known evil. House is interesting, and my favorite choice, but he can also be viewed in the snowglobe thinking. The Wildcard ending, while variable, is catered towards our choices, so it's less wild and more variable. The Legion is truly a wild card in that there are a lot of possible outcomes depending on what exactly Caesar's end goal is, which can ultimately make a civilization I can see being better than any of the three endings, but at worse can be the worst ending of all.
 
The Wild Card ending is the best because you say screw everyone else, I'll make my own country with Blackjack and hookers. Literally.
 
I'd say that he hasn't chosen because of Lanius. To be honest I keep getting this feeling that he wants Lanius dead afterwards to represent the last of the old barbaric Legion being swept away in place of Rome. There's a strong mention that he wants to turn the Legion into the Roman Empire so he can continue his legacy but Lanius is a major and powerful threat. He holds half the army to his sway and while loyal he's only like that as long as there are other enemies to fight. Maybe afterwards he can choose Vulpes as his heir or possibly the Courier. Vulpes is more suited to leading the 'information and security' network then leading.

Also the Legion holds the world of Caesar above all else. Is settling down really that hard? And if it is he might do a Stalin, where most of the army is purged or imprisoned on return but I doubt it as they are extremely brainwashed. Finally, I never found Caesar insane or egotistic. In fact he has a strong grasp on reality. He mentions how when the NCR were under a 'democratic' dictatorship under Tandi they expanded and became powerful, however thanks to the democratic system they became imperialist stooges. This has happened too many times in history to be ignored. Democracy while a wonderful concept leads to weak leaders.

You think the Russians never tried it in the Revolution? We got the Dumat which failed.
 
Hey, what's up with Caesar repeatedly choosing awful Legates?
First he chooses Graham, a fantastic, practically immortal soldier but a god awful leader, just absolutely shit at strategy and barely knowledgeable in large group tactics.
Then he chooses Lanius, a fantastic military tactician and a man capable of surpassing Graham in almost every way; but the dudes bat-shit insane, he's aggressive, unruly, doesn't understand Caesar's philosophy and, the first interaction he and Caesar had was the one where Caesar had to explicitly forbade child-murder. The Legion has a vast amount of Centurions that could feasibly become Legates, why doesn't Caesar promote one of them?
Anyway, @Dr Fallout, you never found Caeser egotistical? I thought his ego was justified in a sense but he still seemed to do some outlandish things; burning Joshua Graham for example, yeah he fucked up a significant battle and was the cause of the Legion's first military loss but he's a very useful soldier, Caesar should have just demoted him (as the Roman military did to their failed generals) or otherwise used a saner punishment like giving him 50 lashes or something. I think, while a capable leader, Caesar may have a few personality disorders, somebody should do a psychological profile of Caesar based on his interactions with the Courier.
 
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I found Caesar to have a big ego but one that was tempered with intellect. He is narcissistic but he's smart enough to see the bigger picture.
 
"Well it's stated that most members of the Legion out side of Caesar's inner circle believe that he was chosen by Mars so he could easily say that the new leader is Mars' chosen like he was and use Divine Right to justify his successor's reign."
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This would make sense. A lot of Caesars followers, while very loyal, are not the brightest bunch. They could probably believe that.
As long as the new leader was not Lanius. That would be a farce.
I can see Vulpes leading. He is a talented warrior, and obviously intelligent, not just with warfare though, like Lanius is. I can see him being intelligent with things like philosophy or science. All that, and he obviously holds the Legions values close to his heart.
Lanius and Caesar also aren't the best commander. After one of the endings, they sends hundreds of men to kill the boomer's off, (dunno why), which was fucking stupid since hundreds of men died in the bombardment, and theu did enslave them, but at what cost? And what use would another couple of slaves be when you have lost so many men. I cannot see Vulpes doing something so stupid.
"The Boomers defended themselves against many attacks from the Legion, but they eventually fell to the Legion's superior numbers. The Legion enslaved the Boomers and erased any memory of their existence from the wasteland." - one of the endings.

"Caesar should have just demoted him (as the Roman military did to their failed generals) or otherwise used a saner punishment like giving him 50 lashes or something. I think, while a capable leader, Caesar may have a few personality disorders, somebody should do a psychological profile of Caesar based on his interactions with the Courier."
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Caesar is a decent leader in some ways, but I think the Legion would be perfect if Vulpes was in charge.
The perfect mix of violence and subtlety.
 
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Vulpes seems like an unknown quantity; he could be an intelligent, pragmatic leader with a fully realised understanding of the Legion ideology or, he could be a power-hungry evil doer, out purely to advance his social standing or, he could be your average brainwashed pawn that loses all usefulness the moment his commanding officer dies.
I think Lucius would be the most realistic/best leader, he's third in command of the Legion, is well respected by the military, is devoted to Caesars philosophy more than he is to Caesar and, he must have some strategic prowess considering you have to be as good as a Centurion in order to become a Praetorian. Otherwise yeah, a battle for succession would likely be between Lanius, Vulpes, Lucius and, the Courier.
 
I never got any strong impression from Vulpes that he was anything other than a good agent. Out of the current choices for leader Lucius is probably the best. No matter what though a dead Legion mongrel is a better choice for leader than Lanius.
 
"I think Lucius would be the most realistic/best leader, he's third in command of the Legion, is well respected by the military, is devoted to Caesars philosophy more than he is to Caesar and, he must have some strategic prowess considering you have to be as good as a Centurion in order to become a Praetorian."
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Perhaps you are right, Lucius does seem to have some good credentials that qualify him for the role. Vulpes does seem to be a decent leader, but with such a huge organisation, one cannot take risks with someone who might just be doing it for personal gain.

"I never got any strong impression from Vulpes that he was anything other than a good agent. Out of the current choices for leader Lucius is probably the best. No matter what though a dead Legion mongrel is a better choice for leader than Lanius."
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Yeah Lanius is a cretin with misconceptions of honour, and the Legion does not need a leader that is actually stupid enough too believe in the war god Mars. (He actually performs sacrifices to him) I would rather go with House than Lanius to be frank if it came to it. The Legion really fucking needs Lucius in charge.
 
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I never noticed Caesar's egotism. Maybe he is, but he never got around to me that he was into himself. He just knew what worked, and used the devotion to him as a deadly weapon. He knows he's seen as a god by some but instead of taking it in as if he is actually a god, but more as if it's useful to his aims and goals. Perhaps I'm blind to his flaws due to bias.

I'd love to see a civil war between Lanius, Lucius and Vulpes. That would make for a fantastic setting and sequel.

Vulpes doesn't seem to be a good leader, more an effective agent. He just doesn't have the charisma needed to lead large forces. We should possibly see some new candidates, ones that haven't been expanded in New Vegas perhaps?
 
I suppose Vulpes could use some charismatic figurehead as a puppet while he plays puppet master, similar to this concept:
Hardboiled Android said:
And the Boy-king- one of Caesar's few non-slave bastards. Revered by cultists of Caesar and Mars, but his rule extends only to Flagstaff. His strings are pulled by the Frumentarus Vulpes Inculta.
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superdude34 said:
"That's my problem with the raider groups in Fallout, they act more like a gang of bandits. When realistically the famous raider groups like the Jackals and Vipers wouldn't have survived for decades. They would have to raid for food and supplies and would be losing a steady stream of people in the raids."

soon enough the Legion will annihilate the raider and bandits and do the wasteland a favour, so you will have no problems with them.
I see your point about their unusual longevity though too

The only raider groups we see operating this way are Legion, the Pitt raiders, and the Goodsprings Powder Gangers ".

How do I put this properly

LEGION ARE NOT RAIDERS!. please do not make that misconception. just because they kill people violently does not make them raiders, they are an efficient war machine, who create a safe, secure and orderly empire.



"The greater prosperity in the lands held by Caesar is more likely a result of people being left to do as they please with the only rule being to obey Caesar's orders rather than the bureaucratic nightmare that is the NCR."

This is an excellent point. BUT, you cannot associate legion or raiders together in the same sentence, unless the word extermination is involved

In raider areas it is a farce, people are killed mugged and robbed. There is not future for people, just constant hellish violence, chaos murder and disorder.

In Legion lands however.

"People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities. However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfils the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord. Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes." - Fallout wiki

You make some good points, but it is just not feasible to associate the two.
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I knew the comparison would piss you off. :)

Raiders also don't let their subjects get raided by other raiders. It's called a protection racket.

The same article also says that the Legion is also a purely military organization which doesn't have any civilian structures. So the people under control of the Legion have the privilege of being subjugated by a bunch of people who demand that their every command be obeyed as opposed to dealing with raiders who would have... subjugated them and demanded that their every command be obeyed. I think the biggest problem here comes from the way FO3 morphed our perception of a raider into a lunatic rather than just a bandit.

Of course it's better for the average settlement in Arizona to be under Legion control as it spans across vast territories and therefore allows for an unobstructed flow of commerce, so yes, Legion is preferable to each settlement being controlled by its own gang of raiders, but that's just shining a turd.

The farce you mention also exists under Legion. It's a huge territory, Caesar can't administer every single settlement personally. So the legion representative in each settlement is basically god, and he can murder, rob, and rape as much as he wishes so long as it doesn't piss Caesar off. The more isolated the settlement, the greater his power.

The only advantage in being ruled by Legion is that the average Joe knows that he's going to be killed if he pisses off the wrong guy rather than face the uncertainty of being killed out on the road or during a raid.
 
"protection racket."
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No.

This isn't a protection racket, it's an empire with subjects it protects.

"The farce you mention also exists under Legion. It's a huge territory, Caesar can't administer every single settlement personally. So the legion representative in each settlement is basically god, and he can murder, rob, and rape as much as he wishes so long as it doesn't piss Caesar off. The more isolated the settlement, the greater his power."
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Source? Legion representative? This makes no sense.

It's more likely that in all parts of the empire there are Legionaries everywhere, so why would he need a representative.

As long as they just do as Caesar says and they are not murdered, robbed or raped. Its not like NCR, there are no cowboy front lifestyles in Legion territory because there are no uncivilised areas. There are no isolated settlements. There is just the empire, each legionary is a representative of Caesar. And there are Legionaries everywhere in every part of the Legion. It's a nation based on war, hence forth there are soldiers everywhere. why would someone who has probably hundreds of thousands of troops send a lone representative to stay somewhere when he has soldiers there. See?

Robbing, Rape and Murder will piss Caesar off big time, because this is a civilised nation. But there isn't any rape, and its not like these wastelanders living in poverty had anything worth stealing anyway, apart from rags.
In fact. there may be some rape, but I am sure NCR soldiers rape people too. God damn, have you ever heard of New Reno?!
And on the murder front, the only time that happens is when you get your head cut off for not doing as you are told. If you do as you are told and are respectful to the Legion, you'll get on just fine.

Yes, the Legion absorbs tribes "culture", people and yes their is conscription. But there was conscription in the US in the 1960's-70's, and in the UK in 1914-18. (the tribes were so backwards they had no culture anyway. They literally just laid around fighting, shagging and throwing shit at each other)
 
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superdude34 said:
the tribes were so backwards they had no culture anyway. They literally just laid around fighting, shagging and throwing shit at each other
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According to Caesar.

Ulysses, the Dead Horses, Sorrows, White Legs and even the Great Khans give a different perspective. It's why Ulysses is so obsessed with history, because he saw his tribe's culture and history die. The Khans, a staple of the Fallout series and group of people with their own long two hundred year culture and history, are obliterated by their alliance with Caesar after a Legion victory.
 
superdude34 said:
"protection racket."
No.

This isn't a protection racket, it's an empire with subjects it protects.
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In order to be an empire it must have civilian institutions. Which the legion doesn't have, it's just an army which occupies a certain area.
"The farce you mention also exists under Legion. It's a huge territory, Caesar can't administer every single settlement personally. So the legion representative in each settlement is basically god, and he can murder, rob, and rape as much as he wishes so long as it doesn't piss Caesar off. The more isolated the settlement, the greater his power."
Source? Legion representative? This makes no sense.

It's more likely that in all parts of the empire there are Legionaries everywhere, so why would he need a representative.
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Well, there is such a thing as a military hierarchy, and since Caesar can't be everywhere at the same time, he clearly delegates his power. So the highest ranking Legion officer in any given settlement represents Caesar, and whatever he demands, the people must obey.

As long as they just do as Caesar says and they are not murdered, robbed or raped.
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Gee, that sounds dandy.

Its not like NCR, there are no cowboy front lifestyles in Legion territory because there are no uncivilised areas. There are no isolated settlements. There is just the empire, each legionary is a representative of Caesar. And there are Legionaries everywhere in every part of the Legion. It's a nation based on war, hence forth there are soldiers everywhere. why would someone who has probably hundreds of thousands of troops send a lone representative to stay somewhere when he has soldiers there. See?
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You do get how military hierarchy works? The legionaries have to obey Caesar, but since Caesar can't be there for every single legionary, they also have to obey their commanding officers unless someone higher up on the food chain tells them not to.

And do you really think that there isn't a single isolated settlement in all of Arizona and New Mexico, plus parts of Utah and Colorado?

Robbing, Rape and Murder will piss Caesar off big time, because this is a civilised nation. But there isn't any rape, and its not like these wastelanders living in poverty had anything worth stealing anyway, apart from rags.
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Yeah, a slave-owning military dictatorship truly yells civilization.
In fact. there may be some rape, but I am sure NCR soldiers rape people too. God damn, have you ever heard of New Reno?!
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Yes, rapists exist in the NCR as well. But I'm also pretty sure that rape is a crime in the NCR, while I doubt it is so in Legion territory, with women being slaves and all.
And on the murder front, the only time that happens is when you get your head cut off for not doing as you are told. If you do as you are told and are respectful to the Legion, you'll get on just fine.
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So basically, you piss off a Legion apparatchik and you get crucified. Sounds wonderful!
 
Illuminati Confirmed! said:
In order to be an empire it must have civilian institutions. Which the legion doesn't have, it's just an army which occupies a certain area.

Well, there is such a thing as a military hierarchy, and since Caesar can't be everywhere at the same time, he clearly delegates his power. So the highest ranking Legion officer in any given settlement represents Caesar, and whatever he demands, the people must obey.


Gee, that sounds dandy.


You do get how military hierarchy works? The legionaries have to obey Caesar, but since Caesar can't be there for every single legionary, they also have to obey their commanding officers unless someone higher up on the food chain tells them not to.

And do you really think that there isn't a single isolated settlement in all of Arizona and New Mexico, plus parts of Utah and Colorado?


Yeah, a slave-owning military dictatorship truly yells civilization.

Yes, rapists exist in the NCR as well. But I'm also pretty sure that rape is a crime in the NCR, while I doubt it is so in Legion territory, with women being slaves and all.

So basically, you piss off a Legion apparatchik and you get crucified. Sounds wonderful!
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Actually it doesn't. And anyway, how can it not have civilian institutions? Also define the civilians institutions you mean? Do they range from healthcare (which is not required), education (again not required) or say security (they sure as hell have that)?

Agreed, though there might be rules or laws that detain these commanders. I doubt Caesar, as smart as he is, is going to let them have free reign. That assumption is inherently flawed due to the fact that there would be regulations. There are for his commanders (apart from Lanius, fucking Lanius).

Yeah. The NCR is brutal like that. :wink:

Already explained above. While they would have power I doubt they would hold total control. Otherwise many empires in the past would have fallen apart.

Ah, but civilization is subjective.

Not all women are slaves.

Doing the same thing for the NCR means you get shot.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Actually it doesn't. And anyway, how can it not have civilian institutions? Also define the civilians institutions you mean? Do they range from healthcare (which is not required), education (again not required) or say security (they sure as hell have that)?
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By your logic the mafia can also be considered a state. But the difference is purely semantic anyway. What Legion is doing isn't any less right or wrong if you call it a state or a gang of raiders.

Agreed, though there might be rules or laws that detain these commanders. I doubt Caesar, as smart as he is, is going to let them have free reign. That assumption is inherently flawed due to the fact that there would be regulations. There are for his commanders (apart from Lanius, fucking Lanius).
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If he can't make his second in command follow rules, how can he even know what everyone across the empire is doing? I can't recall a single event when a Legion member was punished for something he did to a civilian, brutality is probably encouraged to garner ferocity and a feeling of superiority in legionaries, and is certainly encouraged during conquests.

There is a possibility of a small administrator class as a part of Legion, but even that wouldn't strictly be necessary as each legionary is taught self-reliance. The most likely scenario is that administration duties also fall into the field of legion officers, who don't become officers for their skill at administration. What could be more detrimental for an empire than an administrative class of brutes?

Already explained above. While they would have power I doubt they would hold total control. Otherwise many empires in the past would have fallen apart.
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And many did. Caesar's empire is most similar to that of Genghis Khan, and wll probably fall apart just like that one did.

Ah, but civilization is subjective.
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No, there are objective markers by which one judges a civilization. I know it's not a popular opinion nowadays with all the multiculturalism and shit going on, but it's true.

Doing the same thing for the NCR means you get shot.
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How did you reach that conclusion?
 
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