Legion Appreciation Thread

"You know, I'm not talking to you if this is your level of reasoning.
Derp, Caesar is worse than his neighbours and a lot of tribals. But it's okay because he's only just as bad as slavers of the logically incongruous East Coast."
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There is nothing incongruous about them. You are excluding one part of a universe and focusing on the other part to suit your argument.
The slavery is the same, the points on the map do not matter. People consistently pay attention to the Legion for slavery. It is not the only organisation.
So you are going to ignore completely an entire game and DLC pack? (The Pitt, full of slavery)

Dude, you are in denial, placing what is seen as normal and societal today, in a world which has diverged. It is 200 years later in an irradiated desert, not today in America or Europe or some MEDC.

(By the way, Caesar is much better than all his neighbours and all of the tribes)

"Thanks Superdude. By the way, the Followers admit that stimpacks and modern medicines are running out, which sets out the legion to be able to survive in the wasteland the best. They can make medicine, fight well and know survival techniques which allows them the best chance. The NCR rangers are their only equals on a survival level. No one else in the NCR army is." - Dr Fallout
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Since stimpaks and modern medicine is running out, the legion are prepared to survive. This is correct Dr, Survival techniques will prove useful. The NCR rangers would probably be welcome in the Legions ranks, if they were not dogmatically loyal to their failed republic.

Even if Meds were legal in legion territory, it would not matter, since we would soon run out of them and people with the ability to make more. And Caesar is too busy to go on a quest for stimpak knowledge, easier and quicker to use natural resources
The Legion doesn't totally abandon technology or anything. They just don't have a strong reliance on it like other factions do.

A reliance which threatens many times to run out.
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Absolutely, the Legion is a new more sustainable organisation than others.
It can sustain itself without a over reliance on tech, which could prove to be its huge advantage and other downfall.

Other factions will not be able to adapt to the change of having no pre war medical tech. The legion will be able to. They are very adaptable in this aspect. since they do not over rely on anything , there is not chance they will be crippled by shortages of something E.G: pre war medicine.
Survival of the Fittest. The fittest being the most adaptable.
Aeternit imperi

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." - supposedly Charles Darwin.
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I know at the very least basic drugs like Stimpaks can be made, Jack from the Great Khans can figure that out himself, only needing to be taught how to make super stimpaks. Probably what's running out are just hospitals to pick apart for more advanced medical supplies, or to round out manufacturing, and the followers are constantly running out of supplies because they don't have really any intake. They're a big charity, so they can't really get supply lines going very easily. If you hook them up with the Garrets, James says he only has the components so the Followers can make their fixer as they need. Med-X is just morphine, so clearly someone has been growing some Poppy. Although Arcade does say they've been surviving off of looting Hospitals, just I doubt it's been Stimpaks though. Alternatively, any manufacturing they do have is slow, I mean it is hard to make good, chemical supplies in a mass quantity.
 
You only need Xander Root,Broc flower and an empty syringe to craft a stimpak, as you said the problem is probably mass production; it'd be difficult for the followers to find the ingredients in mass quantity, but I don't see why the Legion can't produce stimpaks for their soldiers.
 
And you only need Xander Root, Broc flower and some cloth to make some healing powder. The Legion may not have advanced medicine, but for most of their needs it's fine. And on the slavery front, is conscription to a shitty service that is led by incompetent assholes who can't even issue basic gear (if we take the word of a patriotic ex-veteran in 188 correct) any better then forced action with the legion? At least they train them to be real soldiers.
 
I thought the Legions method of training was to send everybody out, with no experience, and promote whoever came back alive.
On the plus side though I'd rather be conscripted by a gigantic military force that works exclusively for a guy with some humanitarian beliefs and, isn't shy about it's imperialism, then by a huge corrupt "republic" where i'll die for the fucking brahmin barons who benefit from the war.
 
"And on the slavery front, is conscription to a shitty service that is led by incompetent assholes who can't even issue basic gear (if we take the word of a patriotic ex-veteran in 188 correct) any better then forced action with the legion? At least they train them to be real soldiers."
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Lol, this is what I was trying to say to all the others before they got their knickers in a twist and left the debate.
What use is freedom and democracy and high ideals with Legionaries or raiders about to cut your head off.

Izak, the Legion train on the job. They weed out the chaff, and then the strong rise up the command chain. makes for an effective army filled with skilled killers.
Troops in NCR get about 2 weeks training (this is not made up), so they pretty much send everyone out and watch the result in NCR too. Apart from the fact almost all of them die, because a new recruit with 2 weeks worth of training is not gonna do well fighting an experienced legionary. (Unless said legionary is a recruit, and even then they will have big problems)

"And you only need Xander Root, Broc flower and some cloth to make some healing powder."
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Quick, easy and effective

The corrupt democracy wins too much. It has gotten boring.
Time for something different to triumph.

And something different to the Enclave, who are pretty much a conspiracy theory come true.

The Legion is made for war, pure and simple.
The "We The People"/"Democracy is truth" worked before the war, not any more, (even then it was crooked)

Pax Per Bellum

(I'm gonna start using random Legion and Latin slogans at the end of messages now)
 
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The impression I got from NV was that the Legion had a practically endless supply of soldiers and I would think giving recruits some minor training would make them far more useful tools for Caesar and, increase the likelihood of them surviving and hardening through warfare, making them even better soldiers and making the Legion that much more formidable; it's a moot point though, the Legion does offer at least some minor training, I had forgotten about all the training equipment at Fortification Hill.
I also still don't understand why the Legion don't manufacture stimpaks, I'm sure they have the facilities required to do so, not to mention how much more effective they are when compared to healing powder; just seems like a stupid decision to not make use of them. The Legion isn't against using old-world technology and medicine if they can still be replicated easily post-war are they?
Nice avatar by the way @superdude34
 
Izak, you make a very good point.

In fortification hill, there are training dummies and targets scattered around. Legionaries are seen doing physical training on the go, whether it is hacking with a machete or gun practice. They don't have training like we see it today, not like a course. They are free to go and use the dummies and facilities whenever they like to sharpen their skills.
This is advantageous, since they train everyday, which means they clean their weapons everyday, henceforth they don't actually have shoddy pre war guns, they have lethal armaments which are ready for battle. All Legion soldiers actively train.
In NCR camps, there are non of these facilities, and never have I seen a soldier training of his own free will.


"I'm sure they have the facilities required to do so, not to mention how much more effective they are when compared to healing powder; just seems like a stupid decision to not make use of them."
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I'm sure some legionaries might use makeshift stimpaks. sort of made out of plants and natural stuff.

In my opinion, the devs should have added instead of just stimpaks, natural stimpaks, that were made by hand, from scavenged material, without the little dial and the pre war style frippery. By pre war frippery I mean the gauge for measuring the status of the stimpak's contents. None of that.
Just a basic syringe with some mixed up liquid inside it.
Also, it's sort of hard to find random syringes just lying around.

They do use hydra.

"Hydra is a drug developed from antivenom. Due to the Legion's disapproval of using modern medicine, some Legionaries attempted to develop a different means to help them heal damaged limbs. To do that, they combined cave fungus with antivenom, developing hydra - a curative agent which both anaesthetizes and restores crippled limbs over time. Despite its origins in the Legion, this drug has since seen extensive use throughout the entire Mojave Wasteland, including NCR field hospitals."
Like a doctor's bag, hydra is used to restore health to crippled limbs, making it especially useful in Hardcore mode where stimpaks or sleeping in a bed one doesn't own (from having rented or being given the room) won't heal these injuries. It has the advantage over doctor's bags in that it is weightless and it will continue to slowly heal the crippled wounds over 60 seconds. In a tough fight, where one might receive crippling wounds several times, a single dose of hydra can heal them as they are received. . - Fallout wiki
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The ban on complex medicine is useful, since they have innovated to make new medicines that could prove more effective than a stimpak.
Hydra works just as well as stimpaks, you know.

Thanks for noticing my avatar (;
 
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What causes a lot of issues about Legion is the way the Fallout series showcases raiders. Their entire communities are made up of almost nobody but raiders who depend primarily on raiding to get the resources they need. In a more realistic setting, most raiders would simply assert themselves as rulers and force the meek to feed them, allowing them to raid for luxury rather than survival. The only raider groups we see operating this way are Legion, the Pitt raiders, and the Goodsprings Powder Gangers (the Khans in FO2 also come to mind, but it seemed as if the primary purpose of their coexistence with the Squatters was camoflague rather than domination).

The main argument from Legion supporters is that Legion keeps the raiders at bay, but they do that simply by being the biggest raider group around. The greater prosperity in the lands held by Caesar is more likely a result of people being left to do as they please with the only rule being to obey Caesar's orders rather than the bureaucratic nightmare that is the NCR.

Then there's also the issue of NCR being unrealistically soft. The 19th century western frontier wasn't half as harsh as the world of Fallout, yet the NCR seems far softer than your average 19th century frontier man. I know that they're Californians, but they should grow a pair, damn it! Just look at Bitter Springs - the NCR has the Khans cornered, and rather than exterminating the fucks and giving their kids up for adoption, they wimp out after accidentaly shooting the women, kids and elderly, and rather than going on to slaughter the Khans, which now also have a vendetta against them, they just move them to another location! If this is how they usually deal with raiders, I'm not the least bit surprised that they can't keep their roads safe.

So, ultimately, between the pussies that are NCR and the barbarian savages that are Legion, I chose a free and independent Vegas.
 
Illuminati Confirmed! said:
What causes a lot of issues about Legion is the way the Fallout series showcases raiders. Their entire communities are made up of almost nobody but raiders who depend primarily on raiding to get the resources they need. In a more realistic setting, most raiders would simply assert themselves as rulers and force the meek to feed them, allowing them to raid for luxury rather than survival. The only raider groups we see operating this way are Legion, the Pitt raiders, and the Goodsprings Powder Gangers (the Khans in FO2 also come to mind, but it seemed as if the primary purpose of their coexistence with the Squatters was camoflague rather than domination).
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That's my problem with the raider groups in Fallout, they act more like a gang of bandits. When realistically the famous raider groups like the Jackals and Vipers wouldn't have survived for decades. They would have to raid for food and supplies and would be losing a steady stream of people in the raids.
 
"That's my problem with the raider groups in Fallout, they act more like a gang of bandits. When realistically the famous raider groups like the Jackals and Vipers wouldn't have survived for decades. They would have to raid for food and supplies and would be losing a steady stream of people in the raids."

soon enough the Legion will annihilate the raider and bandits and do the wasteland a favour, so you will have no problems with them.
I see your point about their unusual longevity though too

The only raider groups we see operating this way are Legion, the Pitt raiders, and the Goodsprings Powder Gangers ".

How do I put this properly

LEGION ARE NOT RAIDERS!. please do not make that misconception. just because they kill people violently does not make them raiders, they are an efficient war machine, who create a safe, secure and orderly empire.



"The greater prosperity in the lands held by Caesar is more likely a result of people being left to do as they please with the only rule being to obey Caesar's orders rather than the bureaucratic nightmare that is the NCR."

This is an excellent point. BUT, you cannot associate legion or raiders together in the same sentence, unless the word extermination is involved

In raider areas it is a farce, people are killed mugged and robbed. There is not future for people, just constant hellish violence, chaos murder and disorder.

In Legion lands however.

"People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities. However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfils the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord. Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes." - Fallout wiki

You make some good points, but it is just not feasible to associate the two.
 
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that slave den existed outside NCR borders back when NCR was just a city state, they didn't let slavery exist within their borders then and they don't now.
Superdude's right; Legion aren't raiders, they're a brutal democracy that will lord over settlements and demand food, women, soldiers Etc. but they do it through "legal" means while a raider would just demand food at the threat of death.
 
Izak said:
they're a democracy.
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What?
Also I don't remember them ever stating that Legion citizens regularly have their property, food, and womenfolk taken from them. Since it is a dictatorship Caesar easily could if he wanted to but Caesar wants to build a long lasting civilization and randomly destabilizing his own citizens isn't one of them. All the slaves we see and hear about in game come from enemies and not those within Legion borders.
 
Sorry, that was a typo, brutal dictatorship or whatever.
The Legion probably has some form of taxation and I doubt it would be like NCR (or real life) taxes; Caesar and friends forcing settlements to give supplies and children to train as soldiers seems like a realistic scenario to me, of course I'm grabbing at straws, we don't know nearly enough about the Legion to say anything definitely, almost all our information about them comes from NCR and Legion propaganda and, JE Sawyer seems to change his mind about whether the Legion is a good or bad force every time he's interviewed.
 
Honestly the way the Legion is going isn't the best course, rushing forward to grab more land. Caesar really does need to settle down, form his Rome in New Vegas and maybe start making his Mongol-style dictatorship into a proper Rome. Invest in infrastructure. Invest in manufacturing, agriculture, medicine, science. He needs to actually use his influence and power, rather than just using it as a vanity project. People are safe sure, trade is fine, and they have some benefits, but it's going nowhere. If he can set a form of order to his empire I can see his civilization working. He doesn't just need an heir, he needs a governmental system. An heir won't ever live up to him but a system is harder to break apart, harder to coup, and can control his regions. Caesar is fine where he is at the top, but it'll topple over when he dies heir or no heir unless he give his army some form of governance that's not so centralized to one person.
 
Doomfullord said:
-snip-
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Pretty much this. Even if he got an heir (whether through having a biological son or adoption like the real Caesar) right during/after New Vegas it really wouldn't matter because he'd be dead while the heir is far too young to govern. Caesar is an aging man with a brain tumor. It's appalling that a man who bases his whole regime off of Rome and Julius Caesar wouldn't see the necessity for an Augustus to ensure the Empire lasted and stabilized.
 
It seems like the only thing keeping the Legion afloat is Caesar, he's a god-king, his peasantry is mostly made up of former tribals who are use to praising a single powerful warrior as chief; the moment he introduces a form of governance, that isn't a dictatorship, he loses some of that dogmatic respect that has built the Legion into the powerhouse it is during NV.
It is still absolutely appalling that he hasn't produced/chosen an heir to succeed him, maybe he's hoping Vulpes/Lucius can fill that seat; maybe he hasn't chosen one because he's afraid Lanius will assassinate anybody who could feasibly succeed him, Lanius kind of came off as a power-hungry dog who was waiting for Caesar to die so he could seize power.
I dunno, we still don't know nearly enough about the Legion's internal workings and politics to make assumptions about their succession laws.
 
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Well it's stated that most members of the Legion out side of Caesar's inner circle believe that he was chosen by Mars so he could easily say that the new leader is Mars' chosen like he was and use Divine Right to justify his successor's reign.
 
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