Mark Morgan's "Vault Archives" available again

[Vik]

Again, if you did your research you would realize Interplay has been trying to get a Fallout MMO off the ground for over a decade now. First with Fargo and later with Caen. If we are looking specifically at Caen's attempt, he has been trying to get an MMO going before Bethesda entered the picture.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_Online#Project_history

If Bethesda was worried about Interplay or any company "annoying" them (which itself is a ridiculous assumption) they would have bought the entire license. And as I've previously stated, according to the aforementioned e-mails Interplay was serious about making sure things were done right with Fallout when it came to promotion, the MMO, etc.

And how exactly is it being wasted? Interplay has attempted to bring back as much of the original team as they possibly could. I highly doubt you've seen anything of the game either to come to such a conclusion. What are you expecting from a Bethesda Fallout MMO assuming they would be willing to do one?

Good job making a baseless assumption about research that has nothing to do with what I said. I know that Interplay tried before, sure. But the question is, do you know that they are huge fuck-ups? Or does the wiki somehow fails to mention that fact?

I'm quite sure Bethesda's actions can be easily explained - they don't believe now that Interplay can make anything even remotely decent and want to somehow get the last few remaining licenses that Interplay has through court. Can't blame them too, it makes sense to give the license to a more competent studio, which is is pretty much any other studio in the world.

And how exactly is it being wasted, you ask? Yeah, "Interplay has attempted to bring back as much of the original team as they possibly could", for sure bro. But I think you forgot one important detail - it happened years AFTER they pulled the plug on Van Buren, let all the developers go and sold the franchise for a silly 5 million to the highest bidder. If they truly cared about fallout, they could have sold the franchise to say Troika. Right now they are just holding on to the last thnig they didn't sell or fuck up, and I highly doubt they will even finish this MMO of theirs before gonig bankrupt again. And even if they do, I highly doubt it will be any better than Final Fantasy 14, a ugly and broken piece of crap that nobody will play. Call me pessimistic, but I doubt that even with some good people on board they can create a decent MMO, which is not even remotely the same thing as making a single player RPG.

And I don't expect a Bethesda MMO. Unlike Interplay, they wouldn't try to make something they have absolutely no experience in doing, so they would probably license the MMO to a studio that could pull it off and just sponsor the thing, like they did with New Vegas.

And don't get me wrong, if Interplay will somehow pull it off and make a good game, I'd sign up without a doubt. But given their deep history of screwing shit up, I'll believe it when I'll see it.

It completely redefined the franchise, changing it into a completely different beast than it was before. That isn't doing the franchise a favor, that's doing Bethesda's bottom line a favor. Don't forget all of the mudslinging they did toward Fallout 1&2 with all of the talk about that type of game being outdated, amoungst other comments. Comments which their loyal fans and many "journalists" mindlessly repeat.

It's not a completely different beast, no. It's still a rpg set in the same universe, just different engine, combat and perspective. In New Vegas you still can do pretty much everything you could in F1 and 2 and most quests are just as good. Sure it lacks the turn based combat I loved, but the alternative is decent enough and at least as visually satisfying as before. Would I like a turn based system? Yes, I would. But the alternative is fun enough as well, so I won't complain too much.

Talking about perspective, in all honesty there's a reason why most rpg developers scrapped the top down view, including Troika in their Vampire Bloodlines. Ir's because new technology allows them to use a perspective that can give a more immersive experience. Sure, I like the old school feel the perspective brings and that's why I'm looking forward to Diablo III, on which Leonard Boyarsky is lead game world designer btw. But I believe the current generation Fallouts did two things better than the old ones - immersion and exploration of a big open world . A first person view creates a sense of presence and a huge open world beats the hell out of a world map connecting 10+ locations. I think that those two elements do the rich Fallout universe a lot more justice than a dated old school perspective and a world map.

I'm sure some of you prefer to live in the past, but at this point sticking to the perspective and old formula that was created based on a low budget and in the time when 3D graphics were just developing, that would indeed make the franchise feel dated compared to other RPG's. I would love to play Van Buren or a similar game, sure. But I won't complain about the new formula when it comes to a big world and a first person perspective either, because those things do the rich universe justice and make it a very enjoyable modern experience. This is coming from a guy that still replays the 1998 masterpiece Thief once or twice a year, with it's 8 bit textures and uber-sexy blocky 3D models. I love old school stuff and I love the 90's, but I can't deny that the new formula is enjoyable as well. Fallout New Vegas is the best game I've played all year and it really feels like a modern sequel to Fallout 2.

Fuck Interplay from profiting off of rights specifically reserved for them in the contract written by Bethesda? Sounds like a selfish child to me...

First two words are golden. Sure, they have the rights, but I personally don't think they deserve getting that profit, which is pretty much life support for someone who won't get out of a coma because half of his head is gone as a result of an accidental self-inflicted gun shot wound to the head while playing with a loaded shotgun.

Again, rights specifically reserved to them in the contract which allowed Bethesda to purchase the license for far less than they would have otherwise. Are you suggesting that Bethesda negotiated that contract in bad faith?

I think Bethesda is sure that they can't pull it off and are trying to take the license by force so they could give it to a studio that will most likely not fuck it up and make a decent to good rpg. Can you blame them?

 

[Ausir]

And I don't expect a Bethesda MMO. Unlike Interplay, they wouldn't try to make something they have absolutely no experience in doing, so they would probably license the MMO to a studio that could pull it off and just sponsor the thing, like they did with New Vegas.

Actually, Bethesda's owner, ZeniMax, also owns the MMO-focused ZeniMax Online Studios, which is currently working on what likely is TES Online, and which, if Bethesda wins, will eventually end up making FOOL.

A first person view creates a sense of presence and a huge open world beats the hell out of a world map connecting 10+ locations. I think that those two elements do the rich Fallout universe a lot more justice than a dated old school perspective and a world map.

A first person view creates a sense of being lost in fucking multilevel dungeons, and one, seamless world creates the sense of it being ridiculously overcompressed.

 

[Vik]

And I don't expect a Bethesda MMO. Unlike Interplay, they wouldn't try to make something they have absolutely no experience in doing, so they would probably license the MMO to a studio that could pull it off and just sponsor the thing, like they did with New Vegas.

Actually, Bethesda's owner, ZeniMax, also owns the MMO-focused ZeniMax Online Studios, which is currently working on what likely is TES Online, and which, if Bethesda wins, will eventually end up making FOOL.

Oh yes, there's that. But I guess it depends on what development stage the rumored TES MMO is on. If they get really greedy and will want to go through with both the TES and the Fallout MMO , they can still hire some other studio.

A first person view creates a sense of being lost in fucking multilevel dungeons,

That's a fuckup on the level designers part and has nothing to do with a perspective.

And btw, that's one of the few weak points of New Vegas. Obsidian for some reason turned Vaults and caves into truly complicated mazes. I don't remember Bethesda's vaults and caves being this annoying.

and one, seamless world creates the sense of it being ridiculously overcompressed.

Might be in some cases, like the Vegas strip, but I think it's a technical problem and a small price to pay for a world you can explore for many, many hours.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

I'm quite sure Bethesda's actions can be easily explained - they don't believe now that Interplay can make anything even remotely decent and want to somehow get the last few remaining licenses that Interplay has through court. Can't blame them too, it makes sense to give the license to a more competent studio, which is is pretty much any other studio in the world.

I can give an even more simple and realistic explanation: money. They made that kind of deal with Interplay because they were sure they couldn't make it, so they would have get the license for the games AND the MMORPG for less money.

Saying that Beth wants the license because it's wasted with Interplay, out of good will or something, is ridicolous.

 

[Lexx]

You don't remember Bethesdas metro tunnel, I'll guess, because Obsidians dungeons have been far better when it comes to orientation than Fallout 3's.

Not saying that they are a less fuckup, but at least I didn't had to run around all day long to find the fucking door I need to find.

Might be in some cases, like the Vegas strip,

And in the whole Fallout 3 world.


Not really a technical problem. The engine can use really big worlds. It's a problem with development time and too much walkways between locations, which lots of players would have liked to be filled up with whatever stuff.

 

[Ausir]

I'm quite sure Bethesda's actions can be easily explained - they don't believe now that Interplay can make anything even remotely decent and want to somehow get the last few remaining licenses that Interplay has through court. Can't blame them too, it makes sense to give the license to a more competent studio, which is is pretty much any other studio in the world.

They could have bought the MMO rights, but decided to instead construct the agreement in a way that would ensure that they would get them for free. They did not expect Interplay to put up such a fight.

Not saying that they are a less fuckup, but at least I didn't had to run around all day long to find the fucking door I need to find.

I wouldn't say so. I did run around the fucking Vaults all day, especially given the fucked up map system. I couldn't bear to go through Still in the Dark again on any future playthroughs.

 

[Lexx]

Vaults have been shit, yes. But caves and such not, as they didn't have been very big and with lots of levels over each other.

 

[Richwizard]

I'm quite sure Bethesda's actions can be easily explained - they don't believe now that Interplay can make anything even remotely decent and want to somehow get the last few remaining licenses that Interplay has through court. Can't blame them too, it makes sense to give the license to a more competent studio, which is is pretty much any other studio in the world.

I can give an even more simple and realistic explanation: money. They made that kind of deal with Interplay because they were sure they couldn't make it, so they would have get the license for the games AND the MMORPG for less money.

I think both sides of this argument are right. Certainly, Bethesda wants all the money it can squeeze out of the Fallout franchise. But, even though Interplay originally published the Fallout games, it does seem like they have also been trying to kill it for nearly 10 years. (I want Van Buren!) Interplay may have owned Fallout, but it was Black Isle Studios that actually made the games. Interplay disbanded Black Isle and fired everyone there, then "unloaded" Fallout on Bethesda to make a quick buck and try to save their dying company. Bethesda saw an opportunity/bargain and jumped at it. I would love to see FOOL, but I'm skeptical about Interplay's ability to do it well, "well" being the key word. I would love to be wrong about that, but we'll have to wait and see how the legal battles end.

 

[Vik]

Saying that Beth wants the license because it's wasted with Interplay, out of good will or something, is ridicolous.

Did I say they were doing it out of good will? I don't think so. It's obvious that they want to make money out of it. But it doesn't mean that Interplay aren't wasting it.

You don't remember Bethesdas metro tunnel, I'll guess, because Obsidians dungeons have been far better when it comes to orientation than Fallout 3's.

Not saying that they are a less fuckup, but at least I didn't had to run around all day long to find the fucking door I need to find.

Yeah, Bethesda's DC tunnels were ass, but a few minutes was enough to navigate through them sicne they only connected parts of DC. The were confusing, yeah. Hell, I'd say they ruined the DC exploration quite a bit.

But the vaults in FNV are fucking mazes. I felt like a retard running around Vault 34 for more than an hour.

 

[Ausir]

Might be in some cases, like the Vegas strip, but I think it's a technical problem and a small price to pay for a world you can explore for many, many hours.

Thing is, it also makes the games much smaller in scope in relation to the game's world. The whole Fallout 3 would be just one square on the Fallout 1 or 2 map.

 

[Vik]

Yeah, but we're still talking about a ~40 square mile world vs empty squares on a F1 worldmap.

 

[Ausir]

The size of the game world doesn't really matter. It can be just as big regardless of whether it's divided into chunks that can be reached via world map or seamless. But reducing it to just the surroundings of one city limits the scope within the game's setting and makes it look much more compressed.

 

[Vik]

I don't believe I follow your point. Yeah, F1 and 2 technically cover a bigger piece of land than F3 and NV combined. But how does that matter if you won't spend as many hours exploring it as you would explore the land in F3/NV?

 

[Ausir]

Wider scope allows you to cover a wider variety of interesting locations without stretching the credibility and overcompressing the game's world. And as I said, comparing the hours spent on exploring the land is irrelevant, since you could just as well take a F3/FNV-sized game world and divide it into smaller, explorable chunks reachable through the world map.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Did I say they were doing it out of good will? I don't think so.

Saying that they want the license because Interplay is wasting it to me implies that they aren't moved only by greed.

Also I said "...or something".

Yeah, Bethesda's DC tunnels were ass, but a few minutes was enough to navigate through them sicne they only connected parts of DC. The were confusing, yeah. Hell, I'd say they ruined the DC exploration quite a bit.

But the vaults in FNV are fucking mazes. I felt like a retard running around Vault 34 for more than an hour.

The vaults in NV are bad, but there are only 5 of them. How many dungeons, metro tunnels, caves and the like had FO3?

 

[Vik]

Yeah, but I never got lost in any of F3's dungeons or vaults, as far as I remember anyway. Maybe apart from a few metros in the DC area. Obsidian seems to have a real hard-on for confusing, maze-like level design. Like the BoS bunker for example.

Wider scope allows you to cover a wider variety of interesting locations without stretching the credibility and overcompressing the game's world. And as I said, comparing the hours spent on exploring the land is irrelevant, since you could just as well take a F3/FNV-sized game world and divide it into smaller, explorable chunks reachable through the world map.

True, but I just don't find it a particularly big issue that makes the world map format superior. Exploring a city with consistent design can be just as interesting as exploring a world map style west coast with a bunch of different locations, it all depends on the actual flavor of the candy, not the wrapping.

 

[Ausir]

I did get lost in both FO3 and FNV.

 

[Vik]

Maybe I should replay F3 a bit, to compare the two. But I think I would remember if any of the vaults were this painful. The dungeons in FNV weren't that bad since they were small and the local map actually gave a bit of an idea as to where the hell you are. But the Vaults, christ. Vault 34 was a horrible pain. Vault 11 had a nice payoff in the end, so at least it was worth it.

And Vault 22, well, it took me a good while to actually force myself to go there and finish it once and for all for the sake of the quest. Then I had to go out and level up by doing other quests, since my repair level wasn't high enough to fix the elevator and I could not find another way to reach the lowest level of the vault.

It felt so nice to actually blow that level up in the end. Dying in the fire wasn't though.

 

[Surf Solar]

I found the New Vegas vaults rather "challenging" and good designed. The mappers of the game did a really good job, in exteriors aswell as interiors.
The only thing which is a bit bad is that the localmap in pipboy doesnt support multilevel mapping...

 

[Lexx]

They should have splitted the vaults in multiple maps / cells and connect them via doors and elevators. This way, the minimap wouldn't be fucked.