Dr Fallout
Centurion
Oh go back to your hovel you Catholic/Protestant/Protestant Sect 2/Protestant Sect 3/Protestant Sect 26346/Orthodox/Buddhist/Shiite/Shia/Other Religion!Rude.
Most Hated NPC's
- Thread starter DwayneGAnd
- Start date
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
@Ragemage
I'm pretty sure the Institute is the victim of multiple re-writes. There's a lot of signs that the Institute was going to be all about transhumanism and building a better human before someone realized that didn't make sense with Synth Slaves. Then they had Kellog as a century-old superkiller but then realized they had to explain why everyone isn't immortal in the Institute.
Then they wanted the pathos of Shaun dying so you could take over the Institute from him and have a MOMENT but there's the problem he's not even that old compared to Kellog. So they pile half-assed excuses on half-assed excuses. This includes adding a bunch of EVIL Institute actions only to have deal with the fact the Institute was going to turn out to be not that bad when you visited it as they wanted a Gray and Gray Morality group.
Why the BOS are suddenly Nazis but only KIND of Nazi like. They won't "cleanse" any intelligent ghouls in your presence or your friends.
Basically, I think they should have just stuck with Vault City as a model.
"They're a bunch of isolationist but technologically adept slavers who have the philosophy of screw-you, I've got mine."
At the risk of bragging, I could have done a lot better job and I suspect that's pretty common here. You just needed one single vision.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
I live in an upper middle class suburban neighborhood thanks. I'm Catholic. Also most of the "different religions" you listed aren't different religions at all, they're all under the same umbrella of Christianity. If you're going to troll by saying "lol stoopid theist there's over 4 quintillion religions how is ur's da true one?", try harder. Zoroastrianism for example.
I think one problem with what you listed earlier about the Institute being close to real universities and how they work is the fact that, it isn't like that at all. You mention West Virginia and how they run things and how when a new Dean comes about they change everything the last Dean did, but the problem with this is that for the most part with the Institute, it's only Shaun. Most of the stuff we see at the Institute are directly from him. Really the only major things we know of pre-Shaun running the Institute are Gen 1 and 2 Synths and biotransplants via Kellogg. So therefore things like Super Mutants being made over and over again despite there not being a reason for it don't make sense. Now it could make sense if Bethesda actually followed the model you're proposing they did. For example, Shaun's previous predecessor could have been running experiments with Super Mutants to see how well they would fare VS transplants like Kellogg or with the synth program, and then Shaun saw how inhumane it was and shut it down. But no, it's all Shaun, he started the Super Mutant business and only ended it because the lab was destroyed. So that's the main problem, there's no sense of this whole "Ah, the old ways suck, mine are far better, let's change everything!" because as far as we know, Shaun has pretty much been at the head of this operation since he hit puberty.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I'm... what? Dude, stop projecting your views of atheists on others. I seriously didn't know what religion you worshiped, though I decided to keep on going because I was on a roll... there are so many inter-sect differences and... ugh it's tiring to keep track of it all.
Also, Buddhism isn't under Christianity.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Eh, there's a bit more if you poke around the Institute. The Institute has 200 years of history and we know they've been working on various things like the fact they were formerly the allies of the Commonwealth but broke off all contact after they were blamed (erroneously) for the massacre at the NCR-to-be-esque meeting.
So the predecessor to Shaun is probably the guy who did that.
We also know it's Shaun who shut down the transhumanist programs, so it was clearly something the previous guy was interested in.
I don't know if Shaun was the guy who made the 3rd Generation Synths the ones who scrub toilets and wash the floors in the Institutes because they were created from his DNA as a baby.
It's possible the Syths were meant for something more but the simple fact is we have a serious dearth of information regarding the subject.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
I'm... what? Dude, stop projecting your views of atheists on others. I seriously didn't know what religion you worshiped, though I decided to keep on going because I was on a roll... there are so many inter-sect differences and... ugh it's tiring to keep track of it all.
Also, Buddhism isn't under Christianity.
I'm a theistic Jedi Christian mystic.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
1. You can't be Jedi as they don't have an organized charter or religious rules... then again, looking at the amount of work at fleshing out the background...I'm a theistic Jedi Christian mystic.
2. Which Christian sect?
RangerBoo
Resident Schizo Poster
Hey now @Dr Fallout and @Ragemage, if you two want to argue over religion then do it in the general discussion thread. As someone who agnostic I could give a shit about the whole theist vs anti theists debate and would like to not see this thread get vatted because of it.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
1. I was inspired by the movies to seek out religious thought which believe in a universal pantheistic interpretation of God which is both a part and separate from the universe and composed of all of us. Which is pretty much the Force.
There's plenty of other interpretations of this religious idea in multiple religions but I'm stealing it.
2. I grew up Presbyterian, took 12 years of Catholic school, and now identify as a church of one.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
You're the one randomly projecting your atheistic views in a thread that has nothing to do with theology or religion. Also in my quote, the key word is MOST. Read my quote again before acting smug you n'wah.
Which is why I find it hard to understand why you say you have "no problem with the Institute". They're completely full of plotholes everywhere you look, and anything that could be explained away like what you're talking about really doesn't work. Yes Shaun shut down the transhumanist projects, but for what reason? It's never explained other than "Oh if we do that we'll all become cyborgs instead of humans!" But if he's so worried about that, why isn't he shutting down Gen 3 Synth production as well? As we see throughout the Commonwealth (especially if you work with the Railroad) Gen 3 Synths are so close to humans that they even have to breathe or else they'll "die". They can and will do anything a human can do, from using weapons to farming. There's too many issues here, and it's all because Bethesda didn't take time to explain goddamn anything. It all boils down to "Eh it's just science shit, wave it away bruh".
The problem with the Institute is that we're meant to take them seriously. You can't have all these random plot holes and contradictions everywhere and then not give at least SOME reason as to why. The reason why the Think Tank works in my opinion despite all their strange science and things of that nature is the fact that the Think Tank is literally insane. They have lost all sense of morality and therefore just make science to science. They don't think in terms of "Well what would be the best way to do this without making the world explode?" They think in terms of "Oh hey, let's combine a wasp deadly enough to kill a cow with just 1 sting with even more deadly genetics and then supersize it to see what happens, for science!" We aren't meant to view the Think Tank as good guys, even though they're comedy relief. Yet the Institute is supposed to be some morally gray faction while having probably the most evil parts of the game connected to them? It just doesn't work.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Oddly, I think Father and Arthur Maxson could have easily been two of the best "love to hate" villains in the franchise.
But neither was developed enough.
They just needed to go MORE with them.
If I was doing it, I would have added the following to each:
* Arthur Maxson erased the Lone Wanderer from the Brotherhood's records because he blamed them for not saving Sarah Lyons.
* Arthur Maxson actually is only Elder because he's a puppet for the High Elders.
* He hates ghouls, Super Mutants, and other non-humans because of the Capital Wasteland was such a shithole.
* He killed Fawkes as the "Super Mutant messiah" which made his legend.
* He executed Star Paladin Cross in a duel over the direction he was taking the Brotherhood.
* Danse has a deep dark secret that he was actually Arthur's hatchetman and did most of the actual murder, battle tactics, and so on to make him a king.
* Arthur has a diary which will explain all of this and his dream of building an East Coast Empire to eventually destroy NCR.
And
* Father was raised by the previous head of the Institute to be the evil douchebag he is.
* Kellog also did a lot of the raising--which hurts Kellog deeply as Father intended to murder him all along.
* Father turned the Synths to infiltration so they could keep the Commonwealth's people weak and divided.
* Father released the Super Mutants to also make them weak.
* Father plans to eventually settle the surface but intended to do so with only institute personnel and Synths.
* Father is working on 4th generation Synths capable of breeding with humans as part of his plan to create a superior master race.
* Father is dying of the New Plague which he acquired while experimenting on a bioweapon to kill all of the surface--and needs HIS father or mother to raise Synth Shaun to be the true Director. He never gave you any thought in seventy years until he needed someone to hold onto the Institute until his plans took up.
But neither was developed enough.
They just needed to go MORE with them.
If I was doing it, I would have added the following to each:
* Arthur Maxson erased the Lone Wanderer from the Brotherhood's records because he blamed them for not saving Sarah Lyons.
* Arthur Maxson actually is only Elder because he's a puppet for the High Elders.
* He hates ghouls, Super Mutants, and other non-humans because of the Capital Wasteland was such a shithole.
* He killed Fawkes as the "Super Mutant messiah" which made his legend.
* He executed Star Paladin Cross in a duel over the direction he was taking the Brotherhood.
* Danse has a deep dark secret that he was actually Arthur's hatchetman and did most of the actual murder, battle tactics, and so on to make him a king.
* Arthur has a diary which will explain all of this and his dream of building an East Coast Empire to eventually destroy NCR.
And
* Father was raised by the previous head of the Institute to be the evil douchebag he is.
* Kellog also did a lot of the raising--which hurts Kellog deeply as Father intended to murder him all along.
* Father turned the Synths to infiltration so they could keep the Commonwealth's people weak and divided.
* Father released the Super Mutants to also make them weak.
* Father plans to eventually settle the surface but intended to do so with only institute personnel and Synths.
* Father is working on 4th generation Synths capable of breeding with humans as part of his plan to create a superior master race.
* Father is dying of the New Plague which he acquired while experimenting on a bioweapon to kill all of the surface--and needs HIS father or mother to raise Synth Shaun to be the true Director. He never gave you any thought in seventy years until he needed someone to hold onto the Institute until his plans took up.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
@Ragemage
Actually, double back with me a second as my primary reason for liking the Institute even if this is entirely accidental is the fact that I was able to accept them as people who don't actually know what to do with themselves and are sitting on their power because of a lack of clear leadership. This is even something Father alludes to when he says you're better for the Institute than a scientist. Your point about them making science for science is one of the few subtle bits which Bethesda does as you can call them out on the fact they're making Synth gorillas versus making anything USEFUL.
The desire to help the Institute over the BoS comes from:
* The fact they're mostly harmless.
* The Institute's evil is mostly Shaun.
* You can lead them to a better cause.
* it's a CITY, not a faction so it's mostly innocents.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
You're only proving my point. I know you don't speak English well being from Russia and all, but this isn't hard. Most religions as in most of the "religions" you mentioned were simply different sects of the same religion. Most indicates there are some that are not part of Christianity, such as Buddhism and Islam. If I meant everything you said was part of Christianity I would have used the word "all". Now if you'll excuse me, I'm trying to actually have a conversation with someone who's staying relevant to the thread, unlike you.
I'm not sure if I can agree with all of that. They really aren't "mostly harmless" considering, outside of the Brotherhood of Steel, these guys have the biggest technological advancements in the entire Commonwealth (and for that matter, maybe the entire East Coast. They're still beat out by Mr. House and the Think Tank on the West Coast of course). They've been shown to wipe out entire towns simply for not giving them what they want within a couple of days. (the ruins of that one trade town whose name I can't remember where some little girl found something important to synth research and so they tore the entire town apart and killed everyone just because she wouldn't hand it over immediately)
You say that you can lead the Institute to a better cause, but where's the real proof of this? That's another issue with Fallout 4, the post-game is absolute trash. All that changes is a couple of random NPC dialogues, and Diamond City gets one or two new NPCs and some new banners on the front. The Institute "leaders" of the different sections of the base are outraged that you're being made the new leader. I really doubt these guys would just stand there and let some new guy who "isn't even a scientist!" lead them. Sure they back down in the game willingly enough, but that's only because Shaun is their defacto leader. Once he's gone, what's to keep them from simply throwing you out and locking you out of their teleportation devices? (like they do if you piss them off enough)
You could say the Institute's evil is mostly Shaun, but I would disagree. There's clearly normal scientists and whatnot within the Institute that agree with Shaun completely. For example, once again, the plant quest. The man who gives you this quest killed a father and replaced him with a synth without any qualms or worries about it whatsoever. Sure they "try" to make it grey by saying the father was a drunkard and lazy, but this really doesn't make the guy right for doing this. There's also the whole bit about many of these eggheads simply wanting to wipe out the entire surface world and start over despite Shaun wanting to apparently "save humanity" (and contradicting himself many times over). There's also the scientists who want to replace all the surface dwellers with synths to make it safe for them to return to the surface and create what they view as some sort of techno-utopia.
Is it really a city though? All and all it's still where all the Synths come from and where all of their research exists. It's more of a factory/research facility than a city considering how many armed guards and whatnot they have all around. I could argue the Prydwen was a sort of floating city if for no other reason than it has a lot of innocents inside of it (children, scientists, and non-combat women). Both of these locations however come off more as bases than anything, to me anyway.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
That's where I'd disagree with you as the major thing which makes the Institute even remotely interesting is the fact there's no one capable of being a super-villain in the place. They're academics not mad scientists and fundamentally WEAK rather than strong. When there's an attempted coup against your position, it's a complete and utter failure due to the mistakes of the people involved and their inability to secure their position.
You can also eliminate the head of the Synth Retention Bureau and replace him with someone more inclined to moderation. But the real thing is the basis for all dictatorial might in, "He who controls the army controls the government."
The Army of the Institute is the Gen-1 Synths and the Coursers. The first is something you get the Director's controls for and the second obey you as Father's Choice.
In short, Day 1 of your tenure as Director, you can have all of your enemies murderered or even the population of the Institute and the Institute's army will do it because you're the Boss, It's like being in charge of Yes Man and the Securitrons.
In that respect, Father was correct. The Institute isn't like the BOS and there was no valid successor for him. Thus he was forced to look outward.
You can also eliminate the head of the Synth Retention Bureau and replace him with someone more inclined to moderation. But the real thing is the basis for all dictatorial might in, "He who controls the army controls the government."
The Army of the Institute is the Gen-1 Synths and the Coursers. The first is something you get the Director's controls for and the second obey you as Father's Choice.
In short, Day 1 of your tenure as Director, you can have all of your enemies murderered or even the population of the Institute and the Institute's army will do it because you're the Boss, It's like being in charge of Yes Man and the Securitrons.
In that respect, Father was correct. The Institute isn't like the BOS and there was no valid successor for him. Thus he was forced to look outward.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Before I go back on topic... actually, you're JUST as off topic as me. This is a thread for Most Hated NPC's not about the Institute's aims and what they are. Anyway... you said most, then you said all which is contradictory.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Most hated NPCs in a "I love to hate them?"
Paradise Falls
The Enclave in Fallout 3 as a whole
Caesar
Cook Cook
Kellog
Arthur Maxson
These were great villains I loved to track down and murder. If you can do that, you've succeeded as a game designer for a shooter.
Paradise Falls
The Enclave in Fallout 3 as a whole
Caesar
Cook Cook
Kellog
Arthur Maxson
These were great villains I loved to track down and murder. If you can do that, you've succeeded as a game designer for a shooter.
Prone Squanderer
A bit of a Sillius Soddus.
How 'bout for an RPG?
Actually I'd like to know what NPCs you genuinely hate (as in hate not love to hate).
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Much the same but RPGs lack the visceral feeling of satisfaction which comes from truly destroying an opponent.
Myron for being a date-rapist sleaze
General Lee Oliver and President Kimball for really making a mockery of Patton and Bush.
Shaun for being an incredible waste of a character
Strong for being shallow beyond all measure
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