Mr. House - Saviour or Tyrant?
- Thread starter DForge
- Start date
Enclave 86 said:
No, I have talked to him.
How many petty dictators have drummed up support by saying things will be better in the future, rattling off a laundry list of pi in the sky milestones?
Dforge, if your argument that House is a better dictator than any other because he lacks the power to do more, then that's not much of an argument.
As it stands, when he was the primary force in the area, before the NCR and the Legion, he ran it like a warlord amidst anarchy. Hell, in the game the most dangerous free-for-all zones are all the suburbs of New Vegas itself - with unremitting gang warfare and human trafficking.
DForge said:
Sure, but seeing how he failed with this plans - i don't belive him when he says: "Well in XX years" - because he's no seer, as you put it.
So what's his big picture?
Being in charge of the Strip as it has been in his vision - wow that's really a great picture for the whole humanity. I call BS on all other things he tells you.
Pure speculation.
The NCR had embassadors on the strip with which House never spoke - so who's the one taking the things he want only by force? I guess the one going for the robot army, while ignoring all diplomacy.
You mean like the seemingly way to immortality House isn't wiling to share with anyone? Or even any other tech he knows?
House wants to take the dam to get the energy for his strip, while the NCR is supplying a bigger region with energy. So who's the one shutting down the lab searching for a cure? Surely House.
That's simply false. The NCR didn't just annex land and press them with taxes, but all things you can gather from people speaking about the NCR regions is that they also rebuilt a fucking lot.
Like they are just doing at NV - train stations, waterpumps and pipelines, farms.
You should really stop just listening to what some people are saying about the NCR, and watch what they are building and how save their homeland seemingly has become.
No i mean like, the Omerta, the White Glove Society, Benny, the Courier (really, given the point you meet House he might be well aware if you're a evil badass, and he stillt would cooperate with you).
Really if you rethink of what the three family or parts of them are planning, you see how bad House is in making long lasting alliances and judging people. I wouldn't even trust House if he wanted to lead some french fries stall around the corner.
Oh Victor isn't really the problem.
Actually House is all about making a smiley face and than rob you. He isn't open to the NCR saying: "Hell i annex the whole mojave the first time i get a chance, and i only use you to defend myself against this Legion" - hell he would be dumb doing that.
So he's lying to the NCR. Even toward you he isn't straight, when it comes to the chip.
I mean really, he's just saying as much as he needs you to know hoping that you will do exactly what he wants you to do. There's no difference between him and a politican in that.
Wouldn't he rip the NCR off, i would have said he might be more honest, but because he's doing that, i won't give him that.
He even let some Legionairies run around on the strip, while as Arcade/Veronica (i don't remember whom i took with me that time) said that this was 'strange'.
And why should he trust the player immediately? One person whom he trusted - Benny - already betrayed him. Guess you can say he calculated the probability of courier betraying him and it's big enough not to give him exact details at first task
(seeing you have Yes Man as an option - this is perfectly logical).
Why should the player trust him?
I mean he wants something from you, not the other way round.
He's desperate, and i can smell it through his whole speak. And he still don't want to play with open cards -> so no way i'm going to trust him.
Well no, given the fact that you 'should' have at least 2000 caps by that point. Speaking in ingame goods that not even as much as some A-Grade weapon.
And that as an compensation for being shot in the head. Expanding the deal toward killing of Benny and so on?
So i don't think it's too much money.
Oh come on now... you know the 'lowest' definition of a country?
3 parts:
-Holding some land
-Having some 'citizen'
-Having some forces and law
So how is House not aiming for becoming 'The United Strip of House' ?
I'm living 'next to' one of the countries with the most tourists in the world. But even they are not only living off them as House does. Because you really can't do this in hard times.
And i really doubt that applying real logic to the strip in NV it could exist for a long time, if House wasn't getting some real resources.
Fine ignore Liberty Prime.
Stealth Boy was something developed from chinese military equipment coming from the army. So the link toward war is quite obvious.
Right and therefore they also got a 'soldier face', and given the weapon-systems they got i say they aren't just for 'police' jobs.
Also forgot the Protectron who where also commisioned by the military.
He never had the funds AND power needed to make the change... until the point NV gameplay takes place. What happens later... hard to say, epilogues are WAY too vague.
It may also be that he doesn't care about rebuilding the radiated land. Perhaps his calculations indicate that the stars are the "only way". WHo knows, we can just speculateObsidian didn't bother explaining and I got pretty pissed at epilogue saying... well, pretty much nothing.
He clearly would have had funds if not for hunting after some chip, spending thousand of caps for that.
By the way, how high would you thing is the chance of finding a max 5inch chip in a nuclear wasteland, while it wasn't burnt to ashes?
Look at germany between 1900 to 1945 and you will find reason against any goverment.
First there was a single ruler starting WW I (well not exactly but the Fallout goverment also didn't start the War alone).
Than came the Weimar Republic, with some kind of democracy, and they simple choose to vote Hitler and a oligarchy, don't counting how many uprisings happend during that time.
And than, well yeah Hitler and the NSDAP. A true Oligarchy and they fucked up big time.
So please don't start with such an argument.
Especially because no single man can hold power alone. Even House needs other peoples, like the Omerta. Even after getting his robots he needs other people as he clearly seems to lack in the fields of robots (being unable to write the needed code through the years instead of searching for some graind of sand in the desert).
@KlimatNV
When i read the computers there i didn't pay that much attention, but later i read in the Fallout-wiki that the last email in the terminal was signed by him.
Given that you find something quite of value for 'Mr. House' i guess it's safe to say he really was there. But yeah that really a bit of stretch.
-edit-
@Enclae86
Well look at the Repcon Testsite and you see how fare space programs were in Fallout.
So while we all laughed about Bright, you really want to take House serious on that? It's a simple claim without any backing-up.
He don't got the industry for such a program. You can't built a space ship out of gogo-dancers or slot-machines or buy all things necessary for it with caps in a post-apoc world, that's the main reason i'm allways mentioning him not building any real industry.
He don't got the knowledge, other-wise he would have fled before the war. If you really think house could do this, just not forget he wasn't even able to write drivers for rocket-launchers, which are quite more easy to write than some system for space-'rockets'.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Nalano said:
You can't just say he's lying, how do you know he's not telling the truth, what evidence is there that he is just stringing the Courier along with promises of wealth and power?,In the end he gives the courier a good life if he helps him, he holds up his bargin. He's a business man, he payed a lot of money to keep New Vegas from being destroyed and look at him, whithered in his box, your telling me he did all that just to live out some power fantasy? Which does him no good because he spends all his life in a box, money has no self-value to him, he can't spend it on himself.
He has enough securitrons to control the strip, which earns him money whilst he hired people to find the platinum chip, once he gets the chip he is going to ensure Vegas's independance to keep earning money, to put towards future projects.
Enclave 86 said:
Future projects like keeping his 'life-support-system' repaired and running? Or even finding a way to get out of his 'sacophargus' and still being able to life?
He got no credibility for being a humanitarian on my account.
But to this it comes down. Are you willing to belief his claims of having the greater good in mind and therefore wanting to rule with an iron hand, destroying lives, thworing people out in the even wilder waste and so on, or not.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Bad_Karma said:
Your talking to a guy called The Enclave, do you think I care about the wasters? The whole idea of the Enclave is that in the long run, although billions would be killed by The Project everything would work out (but the Enclave's goals are a different topic), I killed House exactly because I believed his plans to colonize other planets.
He never claims to be a "humanitarian", it all depends on whether you think the ends justify the means.
Stanislao Moulinsky
Vault Fossil
Make New Vegas flourish so he can finance his other researches. At least that's what I understood.
The tech that costed a fortune in dollars and that probably can't be reproduced after the war?
Was this hinted somewhere?
I doubt it's possible, unless he puts his brain in a robot body.Bad_Karma said:
Hitler was never "elected" if I'm remembering right, he lost twice first. Then his party won a large number of seats in the Reichstag, and he was brought to power later in what was a very turbulent period for Germany in those times.
But as far as the popular vote went in people electing him as leader... that never happened.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Make New Vegas flourish so he can finance his other researches. At least that's what I understood.
The tech that costed a fortune in dollars and that probably can't be reproduced after the war?
Was this hinted somewhere?
He does say that in 20 years he may start trying to sell his imortality technology to interested parties and you're right, he makes no reference to him being able to find a way out of his box. If the air tight seal is broken he will die from microbiological infections in a year.
Ausir said:
True, but was it hinted that he can actually *die* ? I must have missed that part if it was. From what I understand, he cannot die on his own, so unless someone kills him by unplugging his life support, he will "live forever", sort of. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bad_Karma said:
Well, perhaps he can calculate that it's 100% probable of launching a man in space with XXX funds, YYY technology development rate and in ZZZ years. That's possible, I guess
That might of course be true. A pity the ending is so vague we can't really know what happened in the next 100 years.
Well, mr.House was the person that started the negotiations with NCR, not the other way around. He obviously couldn't show up in person being a 300-year old being held in life suspension tank. Besides, what's the alternative? The NCR wants to annex his land. House is aware of it perfectly and has no illusion that something else will happen. Thus the longer the NCR is occupied by Legion, the better. If you get NCR ending, you can see that House's prediction was true. NCR immediately annexes the Strip.
They just can't keep their hands off anything, I guess. "Independent" is out of their "democratic" language.
House needs securitrons because - as he explains in game - he MUST have something to protect his city from NCR. Not because he wants to conquer the world with them... contrary to NCR which uses army to annex everything worth their attention. NCR members like Boone comment without illusion that NCR government got greedy, wanted too much, hence it's spread too thin.
Greedy, militaristic government... Smells like Enclave? I bet it does. Just because they don't have nukes yet doesn't make them better.
Actually he says that the method might be allowed to public with technology development. He's not like brotherhood, he doesn't want to hide things because of some stupid philosophy.
As I said, tehy are doing a great job indeed! House's role isn't to rebuild what isn't his. And contrary to NCR, he doesn't want to annex stuff. Hence the difference. NCR may rebuild, but they never really ask whether annexion is ok or not - they just do it! It's easy to see when you listen to some NPCs or simply see NCR epilogue.
"They annexed this, that..."
Actually, I think that's just good planning. Before his securitron army was capable of running on their own, House needed people to run the casinos and secure his profit. He explains in detail why he hired them in the game so I won't comment on it here. They are thugs, yes. But House doesn't seem to care for "now" as long as "future" is better thanks to it. Might seem cold, but in a thousand of years, if House is successful, he will be remembered as saviour, and nobody will remember a few squatters that lived in poverty while thugs like Omertas were used... like a tool. That's how history works, i guess.
A strange thing, I take it you prefer the NCR, and should be aware that if someone is robbing people of land and independence, it's them. House isn't dumb, too. If he weren't undercover, NCR would just invade right away. He's actually telling you that if you ask, too - maybe you skipped some of the optional dialogue with him?
He plans to use Caesar, so why not allow his emissary to come to the strip? not that he can kill anyone with all those securitrons watching. House lacks empathy and doesn't really care for him. He doesn't care for revenge, as he states himself after you kill Benny and ask whether he's interested in his fate. He won't exactly go gunning down legion members because they happened to crucify people. He's not an avenger of the fallen.
A good person to make a reasonable leader, if you ask me. Revenge doesn't lead far. It's the revenge-attack the Enclave used against China that wiped the rest of the world. Might have been "just" to retaliate, but - wouldn't the world be better with just 50% of it destroyed instead of all of it?
think about it.
It's true. You are necessary for his plan. That doesn't mean he has to sell his soul to you and see you become another Benny. He's pretty open to you once you finish a few missions for him, too.
It's just poor development, what can I say. All rewards are pretty much below 1000, so it's a pretty good amount anyways. But it's irrelevant plotwise.
He doesn't talk about expanding or annexing anything. Short of controlling the Dam.
House can buy food and water from NCR for the caps they pump his butt with. Where's the problem? House has established a tourist-dependent economy already, leaving NCR to grow food and purify water. Pretty good move, economically, I must say.
He makes it obvious that without the chip, he would be unsuccessful with guarding whatever he would build on Vegas land. NCR would just come and annex it. What's the point of building a house when there's a tornado coming to destroy it? none. First, protect yourself from the tornado. Then move to building. (bad analogy, but I think you got the point)
House is different. None of those people lived 300 years, none were geniouses (actually most of them knew NOTHING about science), they were mostly populists with stupid, skewed ideas, full of ego and self-ambition.
House seems ENTIRELY different and thus is good for a "benevolent dictator" compared to fucknugget like Hitler.
Most likely the technology needed was unreachable without pre-war stuff... that was lost or impossible to reproduce. That makes his chip search justified.
Relentless666
It Wandered In From the Wastes
If we focus on House's actions instead of his sweet promises about bringing a brighter future the things are pretty clear. The fact is House is a dictator who has his own personal army of robots and his whole parasitic economy serves mostly him and his personal agendas. On the other hand the NCR are trying to be democratic, to rebuild a working economy and willing to deal with raiders and providing citizenship to outsiders.
Would Mr. House help the humanity 100 years in the future? Only if that's in Mr. House's interest. Would Mr. House nuke the NCR if given the chance? Sure, if it's in Mr. House's interest. Hell, he'd kill anyone and anything without a moment's hesitation. It's obvious that he sees people as nothing more than pawns on a chess board.
You defend House like he's done something great. The only great thing he's done is surviving. And someone who survived that long would push anyone under the wheels of progress in order to keep surviving.
Point is, the right person does the right thing when it counts. And Mr. House is not the right person.
Would Mr. House help the humanity 100 years in the future? Only if that's in Mr. House's interest. Would Mr. House nuke the NCR if given the chance? Sure, if it's in Mr. House's interest. Hell, he'd kill anyone and anything without a moment's hesitation. It's obvious that he sees people as nothing more than pawns on a chess board.
You defend House like he's done something great. The only great thing he's done is surviving. And someone who survived that long would push anyone under the wheels of progress in order to keep surviving.
Point is, the right person does the right thing when it counts. And Mr. House is not the right person.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Bad_Karma said:
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Nalano said:
Things take time is all I'm saying, a lot can happen in 100 years.
I still don't quite understand House's motives for being a self-interested despot though, if the seal on his box is broken he will die from infection, apart from his securitrons nobody comes in. He can't leave, he can do shit with his money or his "power" which is actaully rather limited seeing as how the NCR would just take him over if they weren't busy with the Legion.
Relentless666
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Survival. Ego. Maybe a bit of nostalgia for the pre-war days.
4, except you dont count mao. But it was more ironicaly just saying that way to have "great plans" doesnt mean that much.DForge said:
Granted House might not be a crazy genocidal mass murder but hes not a tolerant and symphatetic character either. And thats the issue. Well at least how I see it. To give House the leadership would be like giving it to a computer (or machine only dedicated to logic, maybe his favourite movie is Star Trek what do I know ...) or a person like Howard Hughes
House has no problem to step on people or comunities and to see everything that is not like "Vegas" as inferior and now what ever if someone likes Vegas or not (the City) it doesnt mean its inherently better just cause it has flashy neon sights everywhere. You can get that kind of information from him when he talks about the wasteland explaining the people there like as "wasted". I dont know. He has no problem in crushing others if they dont fitt in his plans. THing is I dont even understand really his motivations as they seem way to crazy for me from a realistic point of view. Rebuilding the "glory" of Vegas ? In a post abocalyptic world ? Caesar wants to conquer, like the romans, but hes a clear dicator, slaver, raider (you name it), the NCR is a gouvernemt, a structure what ever if corrupt, good or bad, gray (what ever you prefer more) but its a institution both of those factions strive for survival. House strives for ... dunno what really an Idea of what Vegas is ?
House is disaffected just as much as the NCR is corrupt and Caesar ruthless
speculation, unless you know EXACTLY who caused the nuclear holocaust.DForge said:
On the other side the time the war in Fallout started the US as gouvernement stoped to exist as traditional democracy as we know it. That would be like calling the Weimar Republic still democratic after Hitler took over and ruled Germany with Emergency Acts
Relentless666
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Crni Vuk said:
Well, just think of House as someone who's seen Vegas before the War, then spend 200 years or so living inside a coffin. New Vegas is his playground, his attempt to make his own kingdom where he's a God and a way to bring back the feeling of the Pre-War days.
Enclave 86
First time out of the vault
Well I at least am willing to give House the benefit of the doubt, when were talking in terms of the survival of the species I might go for "The ends justify the means" stance. As far as I can tell House has no real motive for being a despot, and he has a limited number of securitrons, if you talk to Benny about his tribal days he tells you what happened when House sent a single securitron to talk to them, they destroyed it. In 2281 they're irreplacable and we don't know there exact numbers, if he sent them into Freeside to try and establish order, so what, he would be risking his limited assets by risking his robots and leaving the Strip un-portected from the NCR.
He needs a steady influx of people and cash to get his long term goals sorted, he also needs order, he needs the NCR (the arrival of which was what prompted him into action in the first place) and the Legion to piss off and give him some room. After the dust settles with his more powerful and more numerous securitrons he does bring order to Freeside, just give him more time; his long term goals are definately in the interest of mankind.
He needs a steady influx of people and cash to get his long term goals sorted, he also needs order, he needs the NCR (the arrival of which was what prompted him into action in the first place) and the Legion to piss off and give him some room. After the dust settles with his more powerful and more numerous securitrons he does bring order to Freeside, just give him more time; his long term goals are definately in the interest of mankind.
yes, but its just an "idea" of a city. Like thinking about New York as the big apple I guess. And all that. To like a city for its unique characteristics is nice. But an obsession with it so much that you dont want anything else is outreight crazy in my eyes :p
Enclave 86 said:
Hey, i also can put moral aside. But we're not speaking about 'working out' or not, but about if he's a tyrant or a saviour.
And saviour isn't exactly a term without a morality behind it.
The question also would be what the end is - i don't see that all problems of humanity will be gone in space.
I mean anyone played Alpha Centauri here? - Now put in Omertas/White Glove Society/Chairmen instead of what we got in Alpha Centauri and you might end up with a lot more of fun, than in Alpha Centauri.
Well as i see it he hasn't shown a real example of him doing really any good for humans. The only signs you might find are complete byproducts of his visions of a rebuilt strip.
And as far as i remember in Fallout there was not urgent need to get a space colony - please correct me if i'm wrong on that - so why trying that instead of rebuilding?
Stanislao Moulinsky said:
The tech that costed a fortune in dollars and can't probably be reproduced after the war, but might give new insights into medicine to some scientists out there. And might not cost more or be less producable than a colony space-ship.
Exactly that technology
Nope it wasn't but i like to think that people don't express all their motives to others. But yeah it's guessing on my part.
Vrede said:
In germany the chancellor isn't voted by the people, if you meant that - not even today. It's voted for by the parties in the 'Bundestag'.
So, i generally meant they voted the NSDAP - which got after 1932 at least as much votes as the party of germanys actual chancellor got. Also the participation on the vote itself seems to have been higher than in 2005 when Angela Merkel got chancellor.
Sure that time was turbulent and not all measures parties took in that time were quite legal.
So it was a bad shortening of what actually happened on my part - but i really didn't want to go too much into detail. People who are interested
@DForge
Well you allways come down saying: "The NCR annexed" , "The NCR forces".
But that's exactly what House made at the strip. He annexed the strip through making a pact with the families, then he forced people out of the strip.
Looking at the dates (taken from the Fallout wiki):
2271 - Desert Ranger meet NCR Ranger and make a unification-treaty under the terms that the Desert Rangers are absorbed into the NCR and the NCR protects Hoover Dam + Mojave.
2274 - House sends out Securitrons to make an agreement with the now coming NCR.
So i wouldn't say the NCR went for the dam without any reason, just for their joy of annexing things. And if you look at the endings you also find more than one points that show that the NCR is quite diplomatic and not all about going in with blazing gun.
Which is ecactly what Mr. House does, in taking the Mojave.
So i don't say House is some great evil, but i simply don't think he's some great good.