Mr. House - Saviour or Tyrant?

[agiel7]

I could counter argument but I will be a little busy for now so let me summarize my opinion:

I don't like NCR. I don't consider them a good option. NCR may be forgiving, merciful, whatever. NCR may change into an Enclave with people electing radicals one day, or may not. What I'm trying to point ehre is that NCR represents pre-war US. Does things the same way. Has similar government and methods.

House is questionable. However, contrary to NCR, he wants to work on something GREAT. A star plan. It's your choice whether you think he's lying or not, I think he's not.

Yes, he is a ruthless guy, cold, lacking empathy, capable of using people and killing them.

that's why I don't consider him a president of a country or something.

What I think is best however is to let him do his work. And that can be only possible if NCR is gone from the region and their grabby hands are out of the picture.

hence I sided with him in my playthrough. Shame the epilogue doesn't state whether he realized what he was talking about or not.

So I can only speculate - I consider it's worth a try to give him a chance by running VEGAS (not the world! not that he intends to run the world..) like he wants.

Perhaps he WILL bring some good to humanity.

He is a genious after all.

Following NCR path just denies him the chance - and gives Kimball what he wants. A new fancy Toy and another "enemy of the republic" wiped off the map. Will the NCR give people salvation? Perhaps. Will it turn out to be Enclave? perhaps. Can House be any threat to a mighty nation with his bunch of robots? Nope.

What he CAN do is run a few casinos while using his superior mind AND power AND cash to develop something.

It can be great. Give this man a chance

Go ahead and discuss. Cheers friends.

Andrew Ryan from Bioshock was as much a genius and enterprising tycoon as House was, but that doesn't make him any less of a villain in the game, granted, a woobie villain in TVtropes' words.

He could make good on what he's saying, but I'd say his chances are as good as NCR turning the wasteland into a regime of peace and love through its semblance to liberal democracies of the modern world or the Legion doing the same through ostensible fascism.

 

[Kallisti]

I kind of included them under the "slaves" banner. Though to be honest we're only really familiar with how women are treated on the front lines... Caesar's Legion is huge, and the less warlike parts of the empire may not be all that bad, even for those of lower social standing.

You make a lot of assumptions for a society that openly stated that women are inferior mentally and physically.

Like the guy who insinuated that the slaves would be treated well because there was so much money invested in them, I'm going to have to call bullshit: That was the same excuse Southern plantation owners used to say that Black people benefited from that "peculiar institution" by being exposed to civilization under a system that provided room and board. Let's see how many of them want to go back to it.

The point he was trying to make is that its unlikely that the entirety of the population is slaves, what you see on the front lines does not represent the whole. Given that Caesar seems to be interested in a fairly accurate reconstruction of the Roman empire, this seems likely. Doesn't help women any of course.

As for the NCR... the NCR is corrupt as hell, and completely ineffectual. They're run by brahmin barons that pretty much openly kill people who don't do as they're told, they can't guard caravan routes, their army can barely even defend itself from a handful of junkies armed with half broken guns and improvised clubs. Economically they're Mojave territories (the sharecroppers, and technically Westside (I think) are a wreck. Westside is at least managing to feed itself, but they suffer constant attacks from Fiends. The NCR is also only better (morally) than the Legion by a technicality of conscript soldiers not being slaves. You're better off letting the Mojave burn and hoping for something decent from the ashes than letting either of those two in charge of it.

House is far from ideal, but at least he's an *option*. And you can always kill him later if he doesn't work out. That's one of the nice features about dictators.

As for the arguments that House can't keep pulling in money from the NCR via the strip, spoilers follow:

[spoiler:107977bd00]Part of the surrender terms for the NCR includes both protecting the caravan routes (something the NCR failed utterly at) and providing the NCR with water and power from the Dam (for a fee of course), not only that, but by the time you deliver the treaty to Oliver, house *already* has the dam working better than the NCR ever did. House can keep drawing in money just fine. More importantly he can provide real safety to the people of Vegas, which means they can grow their own damned economies if need be.

Of course, he also slaughtered the Kings in my ending. It seems there are no options that don't result in a lot of death.[/spoiler:107977bd00]

 

[Nalano]

The point he was trying to make is that its unlikely that the entirety of the population is slaves

You don't have to have the entire population be slaves in order not to have a free society. You just have to have slaves.

what you see on the front lines does not represent the whole.

True enough, perhaps, except...

As for the NCR... the NCR is corrupt as hell, and completely ineffectual.

...wait, what? It's supremely effective. And not just in the pi-in-the-sky assumptions you make of the Legion, either: The reason FO2 didn't take place in Southern California was because the NCR made that a safe, prosperous place to live - which makes for a boring game when you're talking about post-apocalyptic world.

The reason FONV takes place in Nevada is because California is NCR territory, and thus safe, prosperous and boring.

Comparatively, we are NOT informed of the Legion's lifestyle beyond the frontlines, except to stipulate that they really don't have a central system that isn't wholly wrapped up in Caesar. I predict something more of a constellation of villages on subsistence living secured through draconian measures of violence.

They're run by brahmin barons that pretty much openly kill people who don't do as they're told, they can't guard caravan routes, their army can barely even defend itself from a handful of junkies armed with half broken guns and improvised clubs.

It's the frontier. Custer was killed by a bunch of Indians with traded rifles.

Economically they're Mojave territories (the sharecroppers, and technically Westside (I think) are a wreck.

That's the only large-scale food production in the region. It's a bona fide success.

Westside is at least managing to feed itself

...with NCR water...

but they suffer constant attacks from Fiends.

...which the NCR is the only force even attempting to deal with.

The NCR is also only better (morally) than the Legion by a technicality of conscript soldiers not being slaves.

I haven't met a draftee yet. Everybody I spoke to volunteered.

[spoiler:49569d7db3]Part of the surrender terms for the NCR includes both protecting the caravan routes (something the NCR failed utterly at) and providing the NCR with water and power from the Dam (for a fee of course), not only that, but by the time you deliver the treaty to Oliver, house *already* has the dam working better than the NCR ever did. House can keep drawing in money just fine. More importantly he can provide real safety to the people of Vegas, which means they can grow their own damned economies if need be.

Of course, he also slaughtered the Kings in my ending. It seems there are no options that don't result in a lot of death.[/spoiler:49569d7db3]

[spoiler:49569d7db3]Actually, it was the NCR who secured the dam and got it to working order. It was the NCR that MADE the caravan routes. It is the NCR that provided the entirety of the folks who spent their money on the Strip. It is the NCR that protects the folks outside the Strip, and the two ways the Kings get to retain their independence are if you take the Yes Man route OR you use your one favor from the King to ask him to stop fighting the NCR. That's right: The NCR allows the Kings to retain their independence.[/spoiler:49569d7db3]

 

[Ausir]

I haven't met a draftee yet. Everybody I spoke to volunteered.

Well, it is said in-game that both draftees and volunteers serve in NCR army. I'm pretty sure the deserters you find in Primm are conscripts too.

 

[DasCryborg]

The NCR may be corrupt however as with all governments there are those who corrupt it.

I am in the military I can tell you from first hand experience that sending people into territories to occupy them in this day in age is a total cluster fuck. Now lets think about this ... sending troops into a hostile nuclear wasteland that is completely unstable, where your pay is only worth 40% of the normal currency.

Have you ever spent a year living in a tent in the middle of a waste land? I have and I can tell you this morale is horrible. Communication between encampments is piss poor and intel is especially poorly communicated. Oh lets not forget the other aspects of a nuclear wasteland that are extremely dangerous ... Feral Ghouls, Night Stalkers, Super Mutants, Deathclaws, Radscorpions, Giant Ants, radiation , food more than likely worse than present day MREs ... they are in a holding pattern as they are there to annex New Vegas and keep the Dam functional and protected.

Mr. House isn't exactly helping them he is using them to his own ends as they help prevent the Legion from taking over and ruining his goals. Mr. House is purposely not helping them to keep them in this holding pattern.

The only tyrant in the game is Ceaser. Mr House has his own agenda with his own goals which is in my opinion is neutral. The NCR want to annex the area and expand. The NCRs job there is to protect their interest, not people who are not supportive yet still demand their help.

 

[Nalano]

I haven't met a draftee yet. Everybody I spoke to volunteered.

Well, it is said in-game that both draftees and volunteers serve in NCR army. I'm pretty sure the deserters you find in Primm are conscripts too.

There are deserters in Primm?

 

[drgong]

I don't think I ever saw this type of debate for any of the factions of Fallout 3. Not that the factions where bad concepts, just that the writing of New Vegas is much better then Fallout 3.

Not played though, so I really can't comment.

 

[Nalano]

I don't think I ever saw this type of debate for any of the factions of Fallout 3. Not that the factions where bad concepts, just that the writing of New Vegas is much better then Fallout 3.

Not played though, so I really can't comment.

Well, the factions of Fallout 3 made NO sense.

The factions of Fallout New Vegas make internal sense. Not that you'd want to live under them.

 

[Ausir]

There are deserters in Primm?

They take over the Vikki and Vance casino after you find a sheriff for the town.

 

[drgong]

I don't think I ever saw this type of debate for any of the factions of Fallout 3. Not that the factions where bad concepts, just that the writing of New Vegas is much better then Fallout 3.

Not played though, so I really can't comment.

Well, the factions of Fallout 3 made NO sense.

The factions of Fallout New Vegas make internal sense. Not that you'd want to live under them.

Not sure if they made NO sense, the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel makes sense (if you look at their actions, not what they say) since they are not hiding in a bunker, but engaged in a running battle with a base that that they cannot hide. The Outcasts ditto, it would make sense that some BoS would leave and do what the West coast would do. And the Enclave as a baddy was a rehash, (and I am a Enclave fan) but make good bad guys.

now the writing of said groups was not up to the fallout 1-2-NV standard, and there was no rough edges to the EC-BoS.

in New Vegas, the "Non-evil" groups all have downsides, though I really can't see a upside to the legion. (Unless one wants to play evil for evil sake.)

(Though I did feel bad in FO3 when all that tech in Raven rock was blown up, could of rebuilt the DC-wastelands with that stuff!)

 

[Crni Vuk]

I think the problem is more that the game is making a very poor job at showing the legions "good" side. Like save trading routes, or any city which is part of the Legion.

All you see is them fighting around Vegas and doing bad tings ~ though one should not forget its kinda a war zone and in war many do bad things to win.

I think it would have been much better if the game had as well a city controled by the legion showing a peacefull trading there and all that ~ and not making every damn legionary such a ridiculous fanatic, whath append with "usual" soldiers and people. Not even in the German army everyone was a die hard nazi !

 

[Requete]

Exactly since oryginal Ceasar's legionares were well paid profesionales not fanatics and true Romans never slughtered their taxpayers. After what Keisersoze did in Nipton nobody will surreender to him which is stupid way to wage war. The only thing putting CL above enclave is stated goal of domination not extermination. Maybe showing the NCR-BOS war woud be better idea instead of putting new Master.

 

[camil2003]

I don't think I ever saw this type of debate for any of the factions of Fallout 3. Not that the factions where bad concepts, just that the writing of New Vegas is much better then Fallout 3.

Not played though, so I really can't comment.

I played through somewhat and these debates here are refreshing(all right in their own way).

However I'm with Lynette in that all these factions all have their downsides and in the end I see alot of this going bad either way.

Heh war never changes.

 

[Nalano]

Exactly since oryginal Ceasar's legionares were well paid profesionales not fanatics and true Romans never slughtered their taxpayers. After what Keisersoze did in Nipton nobody will surreender to him which is stupid way to wage war. The only thing putting CL above enclave is stated goal of domination not extermination. Maybe showing the NCR-BOS war woud be better idea instead of putting new Master.

Genghis Khan would send envoys to towns asking that they surrender. The first one that didn't, he slaughtered every man, woman and child. The second one that didn't, he pointed to the first one. Suddenly they were more amenable.

Genghis Khan had the largest contiguous empire the world has ever seen, and even the towns he obliterated grew back quickly.

 

[UncleSlappy]

Except that's not what went down at Nipton at all. Nipton didn't refuse the Legion they actually cooperated with the Legion and in exchange they were all horribly slaughtered because they didn't measure up to Vulpes' moral standards.

Who the hell would ever surrender to the Legion or have any desire to work with the Legion after that?

 

[Crni Vuk]

Genghis Khan had the largest contiguous empire the world has ever seen, and even the towns he obliterated grew back quickly.

Actualy during the empire of mongolia some areas have seen the most peacefull time ever since with the conquering many areas which have seen constant fighting have been pacified which was a clear benefit for trading.

Though it is a myth that the mongolian hordes have been worse then other armies. What they did was for that time pretty usual in wars. But they had the reputation of beeing extremly cruel and they used that.

 

[Nalano]

Genghis Khan had the largest contiguous empire the world has ever seen, and even the towns he obliterated grew back quickly.

Actualy during the empire of mongolia some areas have seen the most peacefull time ever since with the conquering many areas which have seen constant fighting have been pacified which was a clear benefit for trading.

Though it is a myth that the mongolian hordes have been worse then other armies. What they did was for that time pretty usual in wars. But they had the reputation of beeing extremly cruel and they used that.

I fail to see how the first paragraph contradicts what I said. I think you're disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Genghis Khan would send envoys to towns asking that they surrender. The first one that didn't, he slaughtered every man, woman and child. The second one that didn't, he pointed to the first one. Suddenly they were more amenable.

Heh. The in-game Caesar tells the Courier the story of its first conquest which is exactly like this.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I fail to see how the first paragraph contradicts what I said. I think you're disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing.

I am just agreeing with you. Sorry if that wasnt clear from my post.

 

[Nalano]

Heh. The in-game Caesar tells the Courier the story of its first conquest which is exactly like this.

There's plenty of direct references.

The most notable one for me was the Sand Creek Massacre vis a vis Bitter Springs.