Mr. House - Saviour or Tyrant?

[DForge]

Then I won't make up shit to make it make sense. I could do that for Fallout 3 a lot too. If a game doesn't explain something, I won't do it for it.

I have no problem with that. However the game leaves a lot of place for speculation since the endings are vague as shit

You seriously are way too big a fanboy of Mr House. He clearly has ambitions, and clearly has an overly singular, monorailed vision, not allowing any deviation of the course he has decided on. He is not a perfect ruler if such a thing could even exist, he's still a human. Your entire argument rests on him, well, not being that, but he is.

Fanboy? Not really... merely thinking he's interesting, compared to stagnation NCR-support brings, from the player's perspective.

Monorailed vision mustn't mean it sucks, right?

And yep, he's human. But it's like saying Skynet is a computer. The difference between a computer and skynet is like difference between a human and mr. House to me.

Comparatively? No, no it doesn't. Fallout shows humanity as flawed, regardless of how they're ruled. They do not exclusively show democracy as flawed, that's just something you're making up.

Well, I never made up that pre-war gov actually did all that stuff, and it was elected, right?

Enlightened autocracy didn't exist. The options were - assuming nothing changed from "our world" - various degrees of communism, socialism, democracy, republic and despotism. They all suck and are an illusion. They all have a common point - someone rules, but lacking qualities to do so because of being human.

And being human is what you point out - a flawed thing.

House isn't exactly "human" like Kimbal, Richardson and all those other rulers. He may be a good choice, who knows.
Going for another Richardson-to-be definitively isn't a good choice though again, imho. I don't have faith in Fallout's humanity.

Yes? Because it is rational, and not human, but making decisions for human. Fallout has supercomputers by the way, though none ruling anything, unless you want to count the Calculator.

Yes but House isn't a machine. He's merely "imitating" their way of thinking via his "probability" calculations. Which seem better than random annexations and nuclear wars that are the results of ambition House lacks. At least - the kind of ambition to rule over others via force.

Actually, multiple cities throughout Fallout 2 and New Vegas were independent of the NCR and could in some paths remain so. NCR pushes for annexation, yes, but they've never invaded a city.

Not that they COULD, given their Fallout2's still-weak position.

But even as a city they were in Fallout2, and not empire like in FalloutNV, they have plotted dirty annexations. It didn't change, they only have more guns now.

House is a threat to the NCR, so it's not like they have that many options there.

Threat? what kind of threat? He's a threat, yeah - to Kimball's ambition. A small, independent city that can't produce a damn thing - as you stated yourself - isn't a militaristic problem. NCR can ban their citizens into going there anytime, too. What kind of threat House exactly is?

Well, I think that's ridiculous. Especially since you think "stripped of human ambition" is applicable to House when he a) has ambition and b) has human needs (see girl robot).

Yeah, the creepy girl robot. I mentioned that in the first post (I don't really know what to think of it - by explanations we can hear from Raul it sounds... wrong )

House doesn't claim he lacks ALL human needs. By talking about being a perfect leader ("autocrat") he mentions a few. Don't remember exactly, but it sounds pretty good. His position - being a crippled immobile man-machine - also makes an important difference between testosterone-driven alpha males ruling countries. He's just different.

It is. Too bad you made it up, and the game never properly explains it. How many soldiers are in the Mojave? How much spending money do they have? Why would they not save up said money or send it back as many moneys do?

Of course I made up the number. With no ingame data about that, what else can I do? It was merely an example of cash-draining.

Why would they not save? And what prevents them from doing so? It's not like their officers ask them to go spend their money to casinos

You just said Vegas is "just his tool". You are contradicting yourself. It's either just a tool or also a goal.

He already HAS vegas. How can it be his goal? I'm not contradicting myself: it can be both his dream (present-time dream, a dream came true - not "future goal" - again, semantics, language barrier) and a tool.

You don't want to go there. The "but this setting his (this and this impossible thing)" excuse never works. If New Vegas had pink ponies, would you just say "I can't realistically explain them, but neither can I explain ghouls"?

What else do you suggest? Consider Obsidian lack of knowledge of how economics work a decisive factor in "House is stupid", but happily accept their lack of physical knowledge for the good of this game/story?

Fallout uses Science!, that means it has a set verisimilitude, a reality in which our laws of mutation don't apply. That does not mean no laws apply at all. The Hub made sense in economic law, as does the NCR. And then suddenly one location is exempt? It doesn't work that way.

Science! can't explain many, many illogical things in Fallout world, some of which are blatant idiocy. I don't consider plot developer's faulty grasp of economics important enough to consider House stupid

You misunderstood, that is not what I was talking about. I'm questioning where the base productivity comes from. The NCR has no real productivity in the Mojave either. There's a few caravan houses, but that's it. So where's the base productivity that supports a place like New Vegas? Where's the food, where's the good, where's the economy? Apparently we should assume it's back out in the NCR mainland? That still invalidates everything House is saying even if it explains New Vegas.

Let's see:

- somebody forgot to add signs of productivity to the game or deliberately decided not to because of ram limitations and effect/work ratio
- there is none and it all comes from NCR's mainland

Seeing that people lived in Mohave for generations, the food must be somewhere, even if not "animated" in the game (consider it something like lack of crapping: just because it's not shown in the game we mustn't conclude Wastelanders never take a dump)
As for production, well, either ditto, or there really is none on the mohave. But what stops people from NCR that HAS the production to come to Strip to spend some money? Even if there are no factories in immediate vicinity..

There's no point in talking to you if you're just going to keep contradicting yourself.

There's no point to talking if you want to quote me outside context.

Heh, Benny would disagree.

most definitely But I think it's pretty "fair". The place isn't a hole in the ground BECAUSE of House. The place prospers (or at least WORKS) BECAUSE of House. And NCR comes and tells him "give us the strip. NOW).

Where's House's "fault" here, exactly?

Yes. Because you're not the only person living in and working in the city, and you have no right to make that decision.

So you're saying House should do some sort of "do you want to join the NCR" questionnaire and send it to his subordinates?

Sounds pretty funny. let's reverse the situation. If Kimball received a nice "join the Enclave" letter, with a good old "or else" addition, would he throw it to garbage bin, or make a voting on whether to join Enclave or not?

A leader has the right to throw stupid offers to garbage bin if he deems them ridiculous or dangerous to the integrity of the nation he's responsible for, isn't it?

Real world example: If US told Mexico to "join them", would you bash Mexico president for saying 'nope"?

After all he's not the only one living there.

What? The NCR is the only thing keeping Vegas safe from the Legion. They provide all the money Vegas has. They keep the outskirts of Vegas safe from raiders. They brought in caravan trade. They are the only reason New Vegas is what it is. How do they have no right? They have every right.

They have every right to annex it? Weird logic.
Does a company that protects your shop and delivers good to it have the right to annex your shop because of services mentioned?

House never asked for any of this, too.

NCR already plotted with Bishops to force Vault
I don't think it's relevant. In a world where raiders, slavers and super mutants run amock, NCR chooses to use as little force as possible, working where possible to cause as few casualties as they can, always preferring politics to violence. They are so ridiculously superior to every other option, it's not even funny.

NCR uses "diplomacy" when it doesn't have enough force to invade. Otherwise, Combat mode.

Wow, such a great faction.. they give you a chance to surrender before coming in with guns blazing before they take what they want. What awesome mercy and moral superiority.

How about my point of view: They are a faction that uses every possible method, preferring non-violent (as they are less costly) ways such as bribery, hiring mercenaries and thugs to do their dirty work and cooperation with crime lords to put their flag everywhere they can - and cannot stand when a community refuses to join?

Oh. So kind of like how House takes tribals and forces them to become his ruling casino houses, not giving them any choice (ask Benny, he sent 20 robots to force his nomadic tribe to become the Chairmen). Oh, and then he forces people out of their homes so he can create a segregated ideal society as defined by himself inside the borders.

Well, I see a small difference here:

-House needed something to start his plan. half-broken robots aren't actually enough to attract people to casinos.
- NCR doesn't actually need anything. They are a thriving community and don't need to greedily annex everything that is in their sight - they have already established a country that prospers.

I don't see House dragging tribals from their beds anymore. Yep, he did it once, there's no point in denying.

NCR however does it all the time. Even when it doesn't need to do it anymore.

You mean he plays off different armies to slaughter one another, has no problem letting the NCR kill themselves to protect his area, has the courier destroy a bunker full of people, and then annexates a dam he has no right to, to then leech power that is desperately needed in the wasteland to power the Strip.
Yeah, he's totally the good guy there.

I never said he's a good guy.
NCR does exactly the same in their quests, anyway, only that House openly admits it while NCR hides behind their ridiculous illusions of democracy (democracy my ass, I can't believe their citizens would actually approve that ridiculous war - which has no point other than greedy land grabbing - but Oligarchs, elected of course, want it so who cares about what the people want).

I already explained that his "playing two armies" was completely justified. NCR would annex Strip immediately after stopping the Legion. (it's not speculation - even the NCR epilogue capitalizes on this>)

There is also the matter of WHY they do this.

House: To secure his Vegas and prevent annexation.
NCR: To happily put their dirty hands on the surrounding lands.

Looks like you have some holes in your knowledge about House

That's what I'm looking for, too more info. I might have missed something.

 

[Stanislao Moulinsky]

Can a computer be a bad decision-maker? In FO universe, assuming the incredibly advanced AI existing in that world?

Like President Eden?

A leader has the right to throw stupid offers to garbage bin if he deems them ridiculous or dangerous to the integrity of the nation he's responsible for, isn't it?

If House is the leader of New Vegas he self declared himself as such.

- NCR doesn't actually need anything.

Besides electricity and -probably- water. Which is exactly why they want Hoover Dam. So, yeah, they need something.

 

[Nalano]

- somebody forgot to add signs of productivity to the game or deliberately decided not to because of ram limitations and effect/work ratio

Except there is NO - repeat NO - indication of ANY venture by House for these fundamental needs at all, and you can't blame Obsidian for that, considering how much they've painstakingly answered that question for everybody else.

They have every right to annex it? Weird logic.

The guy who feeds you, houses you and clothes you gets to say how you live your life.

NCR uses "diplomacy" when it doesn't have enough force to invade. Otherwise, Combat mode.

Who have they invaded?

This is a very important point, so I'm going to put it in italics: There is no other power in the entire Fallout universe that gives people a choice.

I don't see House dragging tribals from their beds anymore. Yep, he did it once, there's no point in denying.

He's done nothing BUT play god with tribals. At least the NCR gives them representation.

 

[DForge]

Like President Eden?

Aww, Eden is Beth's... I consider FO3 non canon :p

If House is the leader of New Vegas he self declared himself as such.

The game calls him a leader.
And what's the difference if he's self-elected or not? The man who decided on global nuclear holocaust (at least the holocaust of China) and Vault's pseudomedical experience was elected by people. Does that make him any good?

Besides electricity and -probably- water. Which is exactly why they want Hoover Dam. So, yeah, they need something.

Well, let'em have the Dam. But why are they so eager to annex the Strip? They don't need it.

 

[Nalano]

Well, let'em have the Dam. But why are they so eager to annex the Strip? They don't need it.

Because they're paying for it, lock, stock and barrel. They provide all its resources, and pay for all its iniquities. It's theirs.

 

[DForge]

Except there is NO - repeat NO - indication of ANY venture by House for these fundamental needs at all, and you can't blame Obsidian for that, considering how much they've painstakingly answered that question for everybody else.

Question is...
Why do you consider them needs - for House. With a small community swimming in money he can as well buy the food. What's the problem?

The guy who feeds you, houses you and clothes you gets to say how you live your life.

Unless you don't want him to feed you, house you or cloth you.
Or you pay him money for it.

In such case, he has no right to tell you anything.

Who have they invaded?

Bitter springs for example. Killing children, women, wounded and eldery people.
Try the NCR epilogue too. Strip = annexed.

This is a very important point, so I'm going to put it in italics: There is no other power in the entire Fallout universe that gives people a choice.

There is very important point that: pre-war US also gave people a choice.
Giving people a choice did NOT prevent them from dying in nuclear fire.
It's not enough to give people an illusion of democracy. I call that lack of greater picture. NCR lacks greater picture, totally.

He's done nothing BUT play god with tribals. At least the NCR gives them representation.

NCR comes with guns and says join us. Go ahead and refuse. (Bitter Springs, here we go.)

NCR gives representation - Like US did before.
The world NEEDS a saviour. Mr. House or not. NCR is not a solution. it's merely repeating the same mistakes and postponing the inevitable.

I'm not saying Mr. House IS the salvation, actually. I don't think so myself. I merely think it's a step in the right direction.

You can try Yes-Man if you don't like House. Way better than NCR, even though I would fear Skynet.

Because they're paying for it, lock, stock and barrel. They provide all its resources, and pay for all its iniquities. It's theirs

In Kimball's wet dreams.

 

[Relentless666]

All this constant quoting and bashing other people's every statement is getting out of hand, not to mention becoming pretty annoying. This is the second thread I've seen this week that's been turned into DForge vs. the world. DForge, no need to turn everything into an argument. I find the way you just toss aside everything people say a little insulting. Just chill down a little and try to at least hear what others think.

 

[DForge]

Huh? we're having a friendly discussion here. Just because many people favor NCR doesn't mean I have to? I give counter arguments for everything.

Besides it's just a game. If my opinion on a GAME CANON is insulting to you, I'd suggest simply ignoring this thread

if an admit or mod tells me not to quote so much, I will stop it.

 

[Black Feather]

Reason why i like House:

I'm almost inclined to download the mod which changes Houses portrait into Renés. Almost.

 

[Nalano]

Why do you consider them needs - for House. With a small community swimming in money he can as well buy the food. What's the problem?

THE FACT THAT THEY'RE STARVING. When the Kings, the Followers and the NCR need to provide relief services, that money is most certainly NOT being used to feed the people.

Unless you don't want him to feed you, house you or cloth you.
Or you pay him money for it.

In such case, he has no right to tell you anything.

Too bad that isn't the case. That would have helped your argument, wouldn't it?

Bitter springs for example.

Ahh. The raiders who attacked and killed NCR citizens and troops at every opportunity, and yet - and yet - even then, NCR troops and citizens all openly express their opinions that they've gone too far and such was unconscionable.

And yet, even despite that event, the NCR is willing to and successfully parlays with the Khans, to the benefit of both.

NCR comes with guns and says join us. Go ahead and refuse. (Bitter Springs, here we go.)

The Kings refuse. Guess the ending that allows them to retain independence. The difference?

They didn't open fire on the NCR.

 

[DForge]

I could counter argument but I will be a little busy for now so let me summarize my opinion:

I don't like NCR. I don't consider them a good option. NCR may be forgiving, merciful, whatever. NCR may change into an Enclave with people electing radicals one day, or may not. What I'm trying to point ehre is that NCR represents pre-war US. Does things the same way. Has similar government and methods.

House is questionable. However, contrary to NCR, he wants to work on something GREAT. A star plan. It's your choice whether you think he's lying or not, I think he's not.

Yes, he is a ruthless guy, cold, lacking empathy, capable of using people and killing them.

that's why I don't consider him a president of a country or something.

What I think is best however is to let him do his work. And that can be only possible if NCR is gone from the region and their grabby hands are out of the picture.

hence I sided with him in my playthrough. Shame the epilogue doesn't state whether he realized what he was talking about or not.

So I can only speculate - I consider it's worth a try to give him a chance by running VEGAS (not the world! not that he intends to run the world..) like he wants.

Perhaps he WILL bring some good to humanity.

He is a genious after all.

Following NCR path just denies him the chance - and gives Kimball what he wants. A new fancy Toy and another "enemy of the republic" wiped off the map. Will the NCR give people salvation? Perhaps. Will it turn out to be Enclave? perhaps. Can House be any threat to a mighty nation with his bunch of robots? Nope.

What he CAN do is run a few casinos while using his superior mind AND power AND cash to develop something.

It can be great. Give this man a chance

Go ahead and discuss. Cheers friends.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Like President Eden?

Aww, Eden is Beth's... I consider FO3 non canon :p

Thats the problem. Seems like you make your own facts and completely ignore the one BN and others present toward you which show clearly that for example without the NCRs presence the Strip would have no reason to exist. Not even if the Legion would magicaly dissapear.

What I think is best however is to let him do his work. And that can be only possible if NCR is gone from the region and their grabby hands are out of the picture.

Just that the moment the NCR dissapears House will colapse. Thats cold hard reality. Sorry.

You can disslike the NRC all day. Hate it as much you want. But they are who provide the Strip with what is necesary, trading and goods. They are it which keep diplomatic relations with House and others or at least try it.

 

[Nalano]

(slaves aside)

That's one real big aside.

Also, don't forget women.

 

[Ausir]

But even as a city they were in Fallout2, and not empire like in FalloutNV, they have plotted dirty annexations. It didn't change, they only have more guns now.

They weren't just a city in 2241 (Fallout 2). The NCR also consisted of most of the Fallout 1 territories.

 

[magickware99]

I made an account just to respond to everyone saying that House doesn't have emotions and thus is invulnerable to human fallacy, blah blah.

1) The guy has a robot mistress who is strongly implied to give him sexual attention through some means. Given that people are claiming that House will magically find a habitable planet tens of thousands of light-years away and then create the space-ship and technology necessary to keep these people healthy and capable of moving after tens of thousands of years under stasis( in bold just so people don't go saying that House can just use the same technology used to keep him alive, given that thing hardly keeps your body in working shape after 300 or so years) or what-have-you, I would imagine finding a way to translate sexual pleasure into computer code wouldn't be all too difficult.

2) The guy collects snow-globes because he likes their shape and the idea of having worlds within a globe, if I remember the dialogue correctly.

Believe me, the guy is not as cold and superhuman as you people believe. He's just another egotistical, arrogant, autocrat who enjoys the little things and has a grand scheme in mind.

Is he a genius? Yes. The fact that he determined nuclear war was going to happen 15 years beforehand, created Robco Ind., and prepared to defend Las Vegas against the nuclear onslaught all show that he's a genius without equal. That doesn't mean that he's inhuman.

The whole point of Fallout, from what I can tell, is that everyone is human and everyone, everything is flawed in the fallout universe. Its dark humor works because you immediately see just how ironic or flawed or just plain ridiculous the situation is. That's the point of dark humor. To claim that there exists some superhuman entity who is above all others simply doesn't work in the fallout universe, afaik.[/b]

 

[agiel7]

Topic creator sounds an awful lot like this one guy on the New Vegas PC boards on Gamespot and Gamefaq. His utter belief in House being a truly altruistic man in a game Obsidian has gone out of its way to establish that there are no "good" guys in is rather disturbing, to be quite honest.

 

[Alphadrop]

Aww, Eden is Beth's... I consider FO3 non canon :p

Trying to think of a good computer in Fallout. Skynet was sociopathic, the Calculator was literally mental and other computers like the Emperor didn't have proper a.i.

 

[Nalano]

I kind of included them under the "slaves" banner. Though to be honest we're only really familiar with how women are treated on the front lines... Caesar's Legion is huge, and the less warlike parts of the empire may not be all that bad, even for those of lower social standing.

You make a lot of assumptions for a society that openly stated that women are inferior mentally and physically.

Like the guy who insinuated that the slaves would be treated well because there was so much money invested in them, I'm going to have to call bullshit: That was the same excuse Southern plantation owners used to say that Black people benefited from that "peculiar institution" by being exposed to civilization under a system that provided room and board. Let's see how many of them want to go back to it.

 

[Brother None]

But I think it's pretty "fair". The place isn't a hole in the ground BECAUSE of House. The place prospers (or at least WORKS) BECAUSE of House. And NCR comes and tells him "give us the strip. NOW).

They have every right to annex it? Weird logic.
Does a company that protects your shop and delivers good to it have the right to annex your shop because of services mentioned?

Here's what it all comes down to...

House never asked for any of this, too.

You keep contradicting yourself. House is in fact aware of NCR's value and knows he can't survive without. Claiming he "never asked for it" is ludicrous, he's one of the main beneficiaries.

But the issue is you're using different measuring rods for the NCR and House. The fact that House stopped the bombs two centuries ago gives him every right to be the dictator in perpetuity, but the fact that New Vegas can not exist without the aid, protection and trade the NCR has provided gives them no rights at all, and when they try to incorporate it officially into the NCR when it is de facto already a part of the NCR, they're absolutely evil. While House's eternal dictatorship is fine.

There's no basis for rational debate here because you refuse to use consistent standards to judge different factions. The only difference I can see is that you like House and don't like NCR, on a personal level. That's fine. It's great. It's not a basis for a reasoned debate.

 

[Nalano]

It's not a basis for a reasoned debate.

Not to change the subject (well, actually, with the strong intent to change to subject), but I'm finding it rather funny this topic of morality and such in a game where the entire point is the fallibility of man - no matter his form of governance - and within which the player can rack up a death toll in the hundreds and still manage to be deemed a "savior."