My Views on The Role of the NCR in New Vegas

C

chankljp

First time out of the vault
I have always been a large fan of the NCR since I first came across them in Fallout 2. I think of them not only as a legacy that I personally left behind at the original Fallout, but also a symbol of hope to show us that even though humans are flawed, there is still good in all of us and that even after the Great War civilization will be able to recover one day.

So when I first heard that the Republic will be making an appearance, I was really excited about it and I couldn't way to help them expand their influence and pave the way to progress.

When I was watching one of the developer's videos, he mentioned that there won't be a 'good' or 'bad' faction in New Vegas. The player will have to intrepid which side fits their own world views the best and help them. For me this is a good thing since I always like it when a game force you to make difficult choices instead of having the classic 'Evil Empire vs. Freedom Fighters' story line.

However, he also mentioned that the reason the NCR will not be the goodie goodies is because although they are very democratic and bring progress to the wasteland, the effects of their actions will 'make you question if they are really the government that is right for the wasteland'.

But the more I think about it the more confused I am. How can anyone see the NCR as anything other then the good faction? Sure, like any large government body in real life they are selfish, corrupt, bound by countless red tape, and a semi police state that focus almost entirely on improving only the living conditions of settlements that joined them. Also, they can be exposed as double-dealing spies that funded a proxy war against Vault City for the sole reason of not wanting to be annexed. But I consider it to be justified as the VC is run by an oppressive government that is based on slavery.

But when compared to the other major powers in the Fallout universe, they are the nicest guys around! We have the Enclave (Genocidal Fascist), the Brotherhood of Steel (Except for the ones in Washington DC, the rest are isolationist jerks that doesn't care about anyone else), and the Unity (Not long active, only goal is to destroy everyone's free will). Just think about it, what exactly have these guys done for humanity? The Brotherhood has help defeat the Super Mutants after the end of Fallout 1, but that is about it. All the other major progress such as the rebuilding of infrastructure, the establishment of trade routes, the reorganization of the code of law, etc, are almost entirely done by the NCR alone. The only other nice factions I can think of are the Followers of the Apocalypse and the Church of Mormons. But the progress that they brought to humanity is still no where as near as what the NCR has managed to accomplished. Sure, we can all put harsh judgement of the NCR's less then moral actions, but it's hard to ignore the life saving angle part.

The only reason I can think of in which the NCR became the bad guys is because at some point between Fallout 2 and NV they transformed into a ultra-right wing dictatorship that is no better then the Enclave. But based on what I am seeing right now, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, I am having a hard time understanding how can anyone can have an alternate character interpretation for Caesar's Legion? I mean, these guys are merciless slavers that burn entire towns to the ground and enslave the entire population! Perhaps the Brotherhood, the Unity or even the Enclave can be viewed sympathetically since they are more or less well intentioned extremists. But the Legion? Do they have any redeeming features at all?

Anyway, I just want to hear about what you guys think about the New California Republic's role will be in the game. Look forward to read everyone's post.
 
"like any large government body in real life they are selfish, corrupt, bound by countless red tape, and a semi police state"

Because they are like that!

The US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan were also done under the banner of uniting oppressed people.

It's fair to assume that the designers have the US in mind when they are writing for NCR and I'm curious to see the similarities.

As for Caesar's Legion, maybe everyone in the Legion has a much more fair chance to rise the ranks than NCR.

Personally, I rather just be an anarchist in the game and it would be nice to encounter some real settlements without compulsory government.
 
""like any large government body in real life they are selfish, corrupt, bound by countless red tape, and a semi police state"

Because they are like that! "

What you wrote was very true. However, my point is that when compared to all the other factions, the NCR is the nicest of them all. Using your comparison, even though there are many problems with the United States government, it is still a lot better then Nazi Germany or some ultra conservative and dogmatic theocracy. The NCR, despite all it's flaws, actually did SOMETHING useful with their power when everyone else just sits around doing nothing good.

And as for being having anarchy, that may be the case in the short term, but it won't long a very long time. In order to survive, humans need to band and cooperate with each other. Eventually forming tribes, villages, towns, and even cities. As soon as that happens, some one will become the leader and form a government of some sort. Even if you insist on calling it something else, it still functions similarly to a government.

The point here is that someone will eventually takeover and be in charge. The question is that who will that be. Lets just look at our options:
Enclave: Killing everyone that isn't pure, a new Nazi Germany
Brotherhood of Steel: Only cares about collecting and researching military technology. Letting everyone else to fend for themselves.
Caesar's Legion: Everyone will be forced to become either a slaver or a slave. Turning the clock all the way back to the dark ages.
New California Republic: Well meaning bureaucrats, but bureaucrats nonetheless. Full of corruption and occasionally engage in shady business.

There isn't a good choice so to speak. But you can pick the lesser of all the evils. I will place my bets on the NCR. Better to pay taxes then to be put in chains or experimented on.
 
To be fair to the Brotherhood, they care about preserving, improving, and reproducing all technology.

I wouldn't be surprised if NCR is too bloated to do anything properly, they've been fighting a war with the BoS, and they may be unfairly taxing or trying to control their territories. Or drafting people into the NCR army to fight Ceaser's legion or the BoS

For all we know, Ceaser's Legion treats it's slaves harshly but fairly. Besides, tehy're not going to enslave everyone, because if they do, then they'll have no one to sell to. No doubt the more civilized peoples of the wastes (like the ones in NCR) will probably not be enslaved, provided they buy from the Legion.
 
In my opinion, the brotherhood is right for once that humanity is not ready for the technology. For example, if the NCR get a pre war weapon, they will use it in war against the opposition. If the Brotherhood got that, they would keep it so that it isn't abused. Yes it could win the war against ceaser's legion, but I'm with the brotherhood with that one, it won't be a way to victory after that. It can become a threat, a way to get rid of anybody the NCR dosen't like, overall it can be abused.

And remember, the only reason the brotherhood does share tech is because of what Roger Maxson saw at the west-tek facility/ the glow. He saw what the scientists did to people and he felt that if thats what people were doing with technology then it shouldn't be shared.
 
The NCR's expansionism will eventually become more than they can handle and they'll become the judges of who deserves what (if they haven't already). Considering the NCR already has its share of cracks in its government, i reckon they wouldn't be the fairest at that. I'd rather live in my independent self-sufficient village than be part of a government that seems to have learned nothing from the old world's demise.

Better than the Enclave and (probably) Caesar's Legion but no deal.
 
The Unity was the best thing for humanity, remove the differences between people and they will live in peace. If they would've solved the sterility problem, the Unity really woulkd've been what's best in the long run.
 
Faceless_Stranger said:
The Unity was the best thing for humanity, remove the differences between people and they will live in peace. If they would've solved the sterility problem, the Unity really woulkd've been what's best in the long run.
Click to expand...

I have seen a lot of people here supporting the Unity and the Master's view of humanity's future. Perhaps that is a good example of different people's worldview and ideology affecting the way that they intrepid the characters.

For me, the Master's plan was absolutely unacceptable. This has a lot to do with the fact that free will is one of my core principles of how society should be based on. If the Master is doing what he did voluntarily then I won't have as much of a problem with it. But he did it for force and that is the reason he needed to be destroyed. He doesn't have the right to control and rule over others without their consent.
 
Faceless_Stranger said:
*cough..economic crisis..cough* *Cough..unecessary war..cough* ;)
Click to expand...

A) Global Economic Crisis.
B) We're not the only ones in 'unnecessary wars'.
C) Fuck you.
D) America rules.
E) FUCK YEAH! AMERICA!
 
Uh oh...

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an all-out war of Pro/Anti-Americanism and 'discussions' on Iraq/Afghanistan. I sense potential.

Remember guys, this is what Fallout is all about now! The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' are not as simple as they seem, and are completely defined by context and culture where "the details are trivial and pointless"- and we humans are the ones who will *mess* it all up! Always has been the case and always will be... so please, no hate on this thread guys, and no overt, aggressive nationalism or incendiary baiting.

Give peace a chance :mrgreen:
 
White Knight said:
In my opinion, the brotherhood is right for once that humanity is not ready for the technology. For example, if the NCR get a pre war weapon, they will use it in war against the opposition. If the Brotherhood got that, they would keep it so that it isn't abused. Yes it could win the war against ceaser's legion, but I'm with the brotherhood with that one, it won't be a way to victory after that. It can become a threat, a way to get rid of anybody the NCR dosen't like, overall it can be abused.

And remember, the only reason the brotherhood does share tech is because of what Roger Maxson saw at the west-tek facility/ the glow. He saw what the scientists did to people and he felt that if thats what people were doing with technology then it shouldn't be shared.
Click to expand...

And the Brotherhood didn't abused there technological advantage over others? If I remember correctly, they had no problem with using the military tech that they collected to invade the NCR and her allies.

If the Brotherhood found the piece of technology first, then they have the right to do whatever they want with it since it is their property now. Sharing it, studying it, lock it up in a safe in Broken Hills, etc. But they don't have the right to go around taking away the things that belongs to others simply because you think that they are "lesser people" that are unworthy. What gives them the right to be the judge, jury, and executor for everyone else?

As far as I am concerned the Brotherhood at that point is almost as bad as the Enclave. They attacked their long time friend for the sole reason of feeling like it and and tried to overthrow its democratic government and turn it into a neo-feudal state under there rule. They don't really sound like a good or even grey faction to me at that point.

But of course, even the Brotherhood on a bad day is still a lot better then the Enclave or Caesar's Legion.
 
zkylon said:
The NCR's expansionism will eventually become more than they can handle and they'll become the judges of who deserves what (if they haven't already). Considering the NCR already has its share of cracks in its government, i reckon they wouldn't be the fairest at that. I'd rather live in my independent self-sufficient village than be part of a government that seems to have learned nothing from the old world's demise.

Better than the Enclave and (probably) Caesar's Legion but no deal.
Click to expand...

I do agree that the NCR should have spent more time improving the standard of living in the territories currently under their control instead of constantly expanding. However, a post-nuclear world. So everyone would need to secure as much resources as possible before someone else does. I am not just talking about pre-war technology here, but also basic things such as clean water and uncontaminated soil for farming. So in a way NCR's expansionism is understandable.

Also, I don't see how being a small but independent and self-sufficient village or town is possible in the long run. In order for the town or village to survive in the long run, you will have to either:
(1) Join one of the major powers for protection and economic aid.
(2) Create a strong military and expand your industry until you become a major power yourself.

Just think about it, a small settlement that have lots of food, water, and medicine is a very juicy and tempting target for raiders, slavers, unreformed Super Mutants, or even one of the major factions. You need find a way to somehow protect yourself against everyone else. Just look at Redding in Fallout 2 for example. The town will not be able to survive on it's own if they don't join one of the powers by the end of the game.

I am not saying that the NCR are angles or even nice people. But the are the nicest guys out there compared to everyone else. I think the message of the game is that the world is not perfect and it never will be. All you can do is to try and get the best possible outcome and pick the lesser of all the evils.
 
DirkGently said:
For all we know, Ceaser's Legion treats it's slaves harshly but fairly. Besides, tehy're not going to enslave everyone, because if they do, then they'll have no one to sell to. No doubt the more civilized peoples of the wastes (like the ones in NCR) will probably not be enslaved, provided they buy from the Legion.
Click to expand...

Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
As for Caesar's Legion, maybe everyone in the Legion has a much more fair chance to rise the ranks than NCR.
Click to expand...

So? Even in a post-nuclear wasteland there is no justification of taking your fellow human beings from their home by force, putting them to servitude and owning them as property. Even if the Legion isn't planning to slave everyone, if they take power they are still going to create a military dictatorship with a slave based economy.

Some may say that the NCR is too soft and civilized for it's own good and therefore isn't the right type of government for the wasteland. And the much more militaristic and aggressive Caesar's Legion will be much more suited to survive.

Personally I don't have a problem with a Spartan like hardcore survivalist faction, but do they really need to base their society and culture on slavery? At lease the Brotherhood of Steel doesn't force others to join them.
 
In a way the NCR is doing what the United States did early on in their history. Getting others to join them by using a combination of propaganda, trade, economic aid, espionage, and the unavoidable bloody conflicts.

I think I will go with Sulik's Grampy Bone assessment of the NCR: "One place help the other, help self." Simply put, the NCR is about as good as any post nuclear central government can go when still remains functional. So perhaps the NCR's ethical alignment is somewhere between 'Lawfully Good' and "Lawfully Neutral". But still, they are not in anyway evil like some of the other factions.

The Enclave: Lawfully Evil
Brotherhood of Steel: True Neutral or Neutral Evil
The Unity: Lawfully Evil
 
willooi said:
Uh oh...

I hope this thread doesn't turn into an all-out war of Pro/Anti-Americanism and 'discussions' on Iraq/Afghanistan. I sense potential.

Remember guys, this is what Fallout is all about now! The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' are not as simple as they seem, and are completely defined by context and culture where "the details are trivial and pointless"- and we humans are the ones who will *mess* it all up! Always has been the case and always will be... so please, no hate on this thread guys, and no overt, aggressive nationalism or incendiary baiting.

Give peace a chance :mrgreen:
Click to expand...
Exactly, point is, free will doesn't work. When people are left to do as they please in Post-Apocalyptia we get slavers, raiders, and highwaymen. People don't know what to do with their free will so they use it to exploit others. The only way we'll have peace is if we force it on them. WE NEED ORDER!!
 
chankljp said:
White Knight said:
In my opinion, the brotherhood is right for once that humanity is not ready for the technology. For example, if the NCR get a pre war weapon, they will use it in war against the opposition. If the Brotherhood got that, they would keep it so that it isn't abused. Yes it could win the war against ceaser's legion, but I'm with the brotherhood with that one, it won't be a way to victory after that. It can become a threat, a way to get rid of anybody the NCR dosen't like, overall it can be abused.

And remember, the only reason the brotherhood does share tech is because of what Roger Maxson saw at the west-tek facility/ the glow. He saw what the scientists did to people and he felt that if thats what people were doing with technology then it shouldn't be shared.
Click to expand...

And the Brotherhood didn't abused there technological advantage over others? If I remember correctly, they had no problem with using the military tech that they collected to invade the NCR and her allies.

If the Brotherhood found the piece of technology first, then they have the right to do whatever they want with it since it is their property now. Sharing it, studying it, lock it up in a safe in Broken Hills, etc. But they don't have the right to go around taking away the things that belongs to others simply because you think that they are "lesser people" that are unworthy. What gives them the right to be the judge, jury, and executor for everyone else?

As far as I am concerned the Brotherhood at that point is almost as bad as the Enclave. They attacked their long time friend for the sole reason of feeling like it and and tried to overthrow its democratic government and turn it into a neo-feudal state under there rule. They don't really sound like a good or even grey faction to me at that point.

But of course, even the Brotherhood on a bad day is still a lot better then the Enclave or Caesar's Legion.
Click to expand...

Where was it ever said they were invading. From what I've read its a war over tech, not land or anything. The brotherhood dosen't act as judge, jury and excutioner, they just don't share technology. Where are you getting the idea they want to overthrow the goverment? They've never had interest in taking over. As its been said in this thread, they don't force people to join them.
 
This is a good thread, I guess another way to look at Ceaser's Legion vs. NCR is to come up with somewhat related similarities.

Iraq was far worse to their own people than the US to theirs, but the US invasion of Iraq has lead to more Iraqi deaths than Iraq would have probably done to her own people. Looking at it that way one can argue that although NCR might be better to her own people they just bring about more overall death and destruction in the name of peace.
 
Or greed. If one looks at Iraq now, they see a country of lawlessness and violence, whereas under Saddam, all was kept in order, maybe through fear, but at least there were no car bombs and daily suicide bombings. Iraq was also one of the most westernized middle-eastern countries. If the NCR were to attack the Legion, all the tribes united under Caesar's flag would revert back to warring and even though they would have their will back, more blood would be spilled.
 
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